Mock 05May2014

TheCount

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I'm fine with the OL. I don't think we're one draft away, so looking at the draft like it's supposed to address all our issues going into the following year is dangerous, need to think bigger picture.

I do, however, think there will be some talent there in the 2nd, so I'd be weary of giving up the pick and trading away from talent.
 

jday

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Dri Archer would be a fun, situation player to have on the roster, but the Cowboys need a legit outside WR to backup Dez and Williams. They really prefer bigger WRs on the outside. Beasley and Harris are the slot guys. That's two players for 1 position. I don't see Harris as what they want as a true outside WR in this offense.

Unfortunately, some 7th round picks are not going to make the roster. By not taking a DE early, I'm increasing the odds by taking multiple late.

Trade value wise, I can take an unlimited amount of 7th rounders for less than the value of a 2nd rounder. It's 2 points for a 7th compared to around 500 points for a 2nd round pick. If I take 10 DEs in the 7th and 1 is a big hit, it still costs way less than taking one in the 2nd.

Jeff Janis is from a small school, but he definitely fits the prototype you are looking for and has the production to back it up.

My point on DE is truthfully there is maybe 3 or 4 guys that are a true fit in the Marinelli mold available in the draft and 2 of those guys may be taken before the Cowboys pick in the 1st round - clearly, Clowney will definitely be gone. You sold me on Lynch in a previous thread, so if we add him to particularly Martez Wilson I think I might feel pretty okay at DE.
 

tm1119

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Jeff Janis is from a small school, but he definitely fits the prototype you are looking for and has the production to back it up.

My point on DE is truthfully there is maybe 3 or 4 guys that are a true fit in the Marinelli mold available in the draft and 2 of those guys may be taken before the Cowboys pick in the 1st round - clearly, Clowney will definitely be gone. You sold me on Lynch in a previous thread, so if we add him to particularly Martez Wilson I think I might feel pretty okay at DE.

Aaron Lynch would make an adequate WDE rotation.....in the Canadian Football League....and there are way more than 2 or 3 DE's in this draft that will be upgrades over what we currently. And not saying we have to reach on 1 in the 1st to upgrade the position either.
 

jday

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Aaron Lynch would make an adequate WDE rotation.....in the Canadian Football League....and there are way more than 2 or 3 DE's in this draft that will be upgrades over what we currently. And not saying we have to reach on 1 in the 1st to upgrade the position either.

In another discussion, I made a similiar argument. He will clearly need time to develop, but could very well possibly make an impact in the Nickel packages as a pass rusher only. I'm certainly not trusting him to set the edge against the run. As far as the prototypical pass rusher, I'm going have to ask that you show me what players beyond Clowney, Barr, Lynch, Marcus Smith and Jackson Jeffcoat who would fit that role (Smith and Jeffcoat, by the way, I definitely am not interested but I included them for argument sake).
 

BrAinPaiNt

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In another discussion, I made a similiar argument. He will clearly need time to develop, but could very well possibly make an impact in the Nickel packages as a pass rusher only. I'm certainly not trusting him to set the edge against the run. As far as the prototypical pass rusher, I'm going have to ask that you show me what players beyond Clowney, Barr, Lynch, Marcus Smith and Jackson Jeffcoat who would fit that role (Smith and Jeffcoat, by the way, I definitely am not interested but I included them for argument sake).

You Don't think Kareem Martin fits the role of a 4-3 DE?

Sure there are more tweeners in this years draft that most would view playing as a 3-4 OLB or a situational pass rusher. However there are more than 2-3 players who could play a conventional 4-3 DE even if it takes them time to grow into the role.

The problem is getting quality players for that position and I don't know if any of those players are guaranteed to be good to great DEs in the NFL...even clowney with all of his natural abilities has a bust potential due to his mental makeup and over hype of his play vs his athletic ability.
 

jterrell

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If we get Donald in r1 I'd entertain all things.

I think the draft would look better without Billy Turner but we've already had that discussion. Not a fan of his Cowboys fit.
Not a fan of burning all the late picks on pass rush type DEs.
Only 1 or 2 would even have a shot at the roster so the rest are just picks for other teams once Camp ends.
 

jday

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You Don't think Kareem Martin fits the role of a 4-3 DE?

Sure there are more tweeners in this years draft that most would view playing as a 3-4 OLB or a situational pass rusher. However there are more than 2-3 players who could play a conventional 4-3 DE even if it takes them time to grow into the role.

The problem is getting quality players for that position and I don't know if any of those players are guaranteed to be good to great DEs in the NFL...even clowney with all of his natural abilities has a bust potential due to his mental makeup and over hype of his play vs his athletic ability.

A couple of disclaimers: 1. I'm not an expert. 2. I am having to go by 40 times not 10 yard times because I haven't the slightest idea where to find the info.

So, having said that, Kareem Martin (again based off of 40 time) doesn't seem to have the speed that Marinelli looks for. Certainly could be wrong, but he looks more like a 3-4 DE or a 3-tech DT to me.
 

tm1119

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In another discussion, I made a similiar argument. He will clearly need time to develop, but could very well possibly make an impact in the Nickel packages as a pass rusher only. I'm certainly not trusting him to set the edge against the run. As far as the prototypical pass rusher, I'm going have to ask that you show me what players beyond Clowney, Barr, Lynch, Marcus Smith and Jackson Jeffcoat who would fit that role (Smith and Jeffcoat, by the way, I definitely am not interested but I included them for argument sake).

You seem to be thinking that if we can't get THE guy we just flat out shouldn't address the position. Like god forbid a rookie takes a roster spot away from the great players we have to play DE after Selvie. And what is "prototypical" any way? You're telling me only 1 kind of player can succeed as a DE in a 4-3 system? You would pass on guys like Hardy, Cam Jordan, Tuck, Charles Johnson, Hali, Bennett, ect. because they are too big and aren't "quick twitch" enough for you right?

But to answer your question in no particular order

Clowney
Mack
Barr
Lawrence
Crichton
Martin
Murphy
Attaochu
Ford
Chris Smith
Marcus Smith
Ealy

Any of those guys would be very good additions to the start of rebuilding the d line and it's not at all unreasonable to think that we can draft 1 of them at a position of high value somewhere in the top 3 rounds. Just because they aren't the next Ware doesn't mean they won't be a welcomed addition to helping the line, both now and in the future.
 

BrAinPaiNt

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A couple of disclaimers: 1. I'm not an expert. 2. I am having to go by 40 times not 10 yard times because I haven't the slightest idea where to find the info.

So, having said that, Kareem Martin (again based off of 40 time) doesn't seem to have the speed that Marinelli looks for. Certainly could be wrong, but he looks more like a 3-4 DE or a 3-tech DT to me.

I don't think any of us are experts, although a few might think so lol.

I think they would view Martin as a DE vs the 3 tech. but that is just me. However oddly enough I think they might see Kony as more of a 3 tech instead of DE...Just get that vibe from the tidbits you read here and there.
 

tm1119

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A couple of disclaimers: 1. I'm not an expert. 2. I am having to go by 40 times not 10 yard times because I haven't the slightest idea where to find the info.

So, having said that, Kareem Martin (again based off of 40 time) doesn't seem to have the speed that Marinelli looks for. Certainly could be wrong, but he looks more like a 3-4 DE or a 3-tech DT to me.

http://BAN-INCOMING-IN-3-2-1/combine2014DL.php

That should be helpful for you...I would also say forget 40 time for a DL, it's pretty meaningless when you think about it. If you're going to look at combine #'s go with 10 yard split and 3 cone drill. Those 2 will show you burst, flexibility, and ability to change direction.
 

xwalker

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You Don't think Kareem Martin fits the role of a 4-3 DE?

Sure there are more tweeners in this years draft that most would view playing as a 3-4 OLB or a situational pass rusher. However there are more than 2-3 players who could play a conventional 4-3 DE even if it takes them time to grow into the role.

The problem is getting quality players for that position and I don't know if any of those players are guaranteed to be good to great DEs in the NFL...even clowney with all of his natural abilities has a bust potential due to his mental makeup and over hype of his play vs his athletic ability.
Kareen Martin would be OK as a SDE on base downs. I think ultimately they would be looking for somebody to replace him at SDE in the Nickel. He could take some snaps at DT in the Nickel. He played DT some in college.

My take is that the top 3 DEs on the roster are best at SDE. They really need that elite speed rusher at WDE at least in the Nickel.
 

Macnalty

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Kareen Martin would be OK as a SDE on base downs. I think ultimately they would be looking for somebody to replace him at SDE in the Nickel. He could take some snaps at DT in the Nickel. He played DT some in college.

My take is that the top 3 DEs on the roster are best at SDE. They really need that elite speed rusher at WDE at least in the Nickel.

I agree that is the problem with this years draft lots of decent SDE few high ceiling WDE. Like the picks and Norwood is a very good find at WR.
 

jterrell

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Kareen Martin would be OK as a SDE on base downs. I think ultimately they would be looking for somebody to replace him at SDE in the Nickel. He could take some snaps at DT in the Nickel. He played DT some in college.

My take is that the top 3 DEs on the roster are best at SDE. They really need that elite speed rusher at WDE at least in the Nickel.

One interesting note off the off-season has been they may try Bruce Carter as a nickel pass rusher.
If a guy is a tremendous quick twitch athlete but gotten too big to run 20 yards with RBs that may be a nice fit for him.

I expect us to be rotating DEs much more than last year. Ware/Selvie/Hatcher played wayyy too many plays.
Hayden did as well but that's because he should be a 15 play a game guy.
 

jday

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You seem to be thinking that if we can't get THE guy we just flat out shouldn't address the position. Like god forbid a rookie takes a roster spot away from the great players we have to play DE after Selvie. And what is "prototypical" any way? You're telling me only 1 kind of player can succeed as a DE in a 4-3 system? You would pass on guys like Hardy, Cam Jordan, Tuck, Charles Johnson, Hali, Bennett, ect. because they are too big and aren't "quick twitch" enough for you right?

But to answer your question in no particular order

Clowney
Mack
Barr
Lawrence
Crichton
Martin
Murphy
Attaochu
Ford
Chris Smith
Marcus Smith
Ealy

Any of those guys would be very good additions to the start of rebuilding the d line and it's not at all unreasonable to think that we can draft 1 of them at a position of high value somewhere in the top 3 rounds. Just because they aren't the next Ware doesn't mean they won't be a welcomed addition to helping the line, both now and in the future.

First, 'prototypical' is a designation for a player who meets certain physical/athletic standards for what a Defensive Coordinator wants to accomplish. My understanding of the Marinelli 43 is that the majority of the line are guys who can explode into the backfield to create pressue on the QB, the one exception being the 1 Tech DT, whose purpose is to prevent the QB from being able to step up into the pocket while facing a double team, usually the Center and Left Guard. Your DE's should be technically sound enough to adjust to the run and maintain gap integrety while also setting the edge against the run or using his overall speed to get around the Tackle to the QB. You can get that job done with a lot of different characters, but it is preferred the guy has some speed to ensure the Tackle is never comfortable. Personally, I look for guys between the weights of 250 and 275, with some length to them (6'4" or taller) with exceptional 10-yard speed. For the purposes of my response on this thread, I used 40 times no higher than 4.6, because I could not find a site that documented 10-yard speed.

Admittedly, 40 times can be misleading, particularly with Defensive Lineman because they rarely have to run 40 yards to make a tackle. But it's a safe assumption the guys with good 40 times also have the best 10 yard times but that's not always the case. I'll stick with the list I provided earlier, because you have to be careful about assuming that a guy who is slow but still had success in college will maintain their performance in the slide to the pros. The speed of the game changes exponentially because only the best of the best make it to the pros. Given my understanding of the Marinelli attacking 43, we will have to agree to disagree on your belief that all of those guys would make good additions. Many of those DE's are actually more ideal for the 34, because their responsibility is to gobble up Offensive Lineman to give the Linebacker's an opportunity to make a play.
 

jday

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I don't think any of us are experts, although a few might think so lol.

I think they would view Martin as a DE vs the 3 tech. but that is just me. However oddly enough I think they might see Kony as more of a 3 tech instead of DE...Just get that vibe from the tidbits you read here and there.

In the response above to TM1119, I explained my method for finding guys I think would be a good fit for what Marinelli wants to do. Like he stated, you can get it done with a lot of different guys, but he will have to adjust his scheme to fit those players in my opinion. Obviously, it's a lot easier to find guys who fit the scheme you want to do rather than the other away around.

Honestly, I would only use Martin as a 3-tech if I didn't have someone more suitable for the task. Martin would probably need to gain 10 to 15 pounds to be ideal for the role, but with his height (6'6"), it's not out of the realm of possibility. If I'm drafting for need, though, I'd probably go for a guy that's played DT, so he doesn't have to learn on the job.
 

jday

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One interesting note off the off-season has been they may try Bruce Carter as a nickel pass rusher.
If a guy is a tremendous quick twitch athlete but gotten too big to run 20 yards with RBs that may be a nice fit for him.

I expect us to be rotating DEs much more than last year. Ware/Selvie/Hatcher played wayyy too many plays.
Hayden did as well but that's because he should be a 15 play a game guy.

If they draft Ryan Shazier, I could certainly see them trying this.
 

tm1119

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First, 'prototypical' is a designation for a player who meets certain physical/athletic standards for what a Defensive Coordinator wants to accomplish. My understanding of the Marinelli 43 is that the majority of the line are guys who can explode into the backfield to create pressue on the QB, the one exception being the 1 Tech DT, whose purpose is to prevent the QB from being able to step up into the pocket while facing a double team, usually the Center and Left Guard. Your DE's should be technically sound enough to adjust to the run and maintain gap integrety while also setting the edge against the run or using his overall speed to get around the Tackle to the QB. You can get that job done with a lot of different characters, but it is preferred the guy has some speed to ensure the Tackle is never comfortable. Personally, I look for guys between the weights of 250 and 275, with some length to them (6'4" or taller) with exceptional 10-yard speed. For the purposes of my response on this thread, I used 40 times no higher than 4.6, because I could not find a site that documented 10-yard speed.

Admittedly, 40 times can be misleading, particularly with Defensive Lineman because they rarely have to run 40 yards to make a tackle. But it's a safe assumption the guys with good 40 times also have the best 10 yard times but that's not always the case. I'll stick with the list I provided earlier, because you have to be careful about assuming that a guy who is slow but still had success in college will maintain their performance in the slide to the pros. The speed of the game changes exponentially because only the best of the best make it to the pros. Given my understanding of the Marinelli attacking 43, we will have to agree to disagree on your belief that all of those guys would make good additions. Many of those DE's are actually more ideal for the 34, because their responsibility is to gobble up Offensive Lineman to give the Linebacker's an opportunity to make a play.

You're putting #'s on a piece of paper above what a player does on the field. You're little method just eliminated Julius Peppers and Greg Hardy.

And honestly, have you ever actually watched the players I listed play? Like at all? Most of those guys were stand up 3-4 OLB's in college and you're trying to tell me their responsibility is to gobble up blocks? Ehh, I think this conversation is over.
 

jday

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http://BAN-INCOMING-IN-3-2-1/combine2014DL.php

That should be helpful for you...I would also say forget 40 time for a DL, it's pretty meaningless when you think about it. If you're going to look at combine #'s go with 10 yard split and 3 cone drill. Those 2 will show you burst, flexibility, and ability to change direction.

I took a look at the link you provided and it turns out Kareem Martin is one of those exceptions to the rule. He has ridiculous explosion and change of direction ability, so I may actually back away from my original assessment. He clearly has more potential than Lynch. My reluctance was as a result of him posting a slower than acceptable 40 time, but as I admitted in another response, the 40 time does not always tell the whole story.
 

jday

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You're putting #'s on a piece of paper above what a player does on the field. You're little method just eliminated Julius Peppers and Greg Hardy.

And honestly, have you ever actually watched the players I listed play? Like at all? Most of those guys were stand up 3-4 OLB's in college and you're trying to tell me their responsibility is to gobble up blocks? Ehh, I think this conversation is over.

I keep telling people I'm not an expert and I'll add that I really don't have time to follow college football. So you are correct, I am simply looking at the #'s. In fact, the only football I have time to watch is the Dallas Cowboys and the occasional youtube analysis. BUt I also have a family and responsibility, so, no, you're not going to get hardcore analysis from me. If you are looking for that, perhaps you should try twitter or Mickey Spagnola. I think you two would get along famously.
 
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