Nate just said go after the pass rusher, not the guard.

ABQCOWBOY

Regular Joe....
Messages
58,929
Reaction score
27,716
Doomsday101;4435705 said:
I agree but the thread pertained to pass rusher specifically that is all I was addressing. Cowboys could chose a CB,OLB,DE or even an OG

All I have advocated is getting the best player you can and one who also can help fill a need but don’t reach for a guy just for the need of a pass rusher.


Draft picks are not just about next year, this is where you hope to find long term player to keep the preverbal window open longer. You miss on 14 and it is going to hurt

Actually, it was about addressing Center, getting help in the pass rush and considering Guard later in the draft. I hear what you are saying Dooms, I just don't agree that there are no pass rushing options in this draft. I think there probably are, just like any other draft. In the end, it doesn't really matter. The Cowboys have their board and it may have DeCastro at the top of it or there may be a couple of other players there. Who knows?
 

InmanRoshi

Zone Scribe
Messages
18,334
Reaction score
90
Deep_Freeze;4435681 said:
The point is, pass rushers bust. And since noone on this board has a crystal ball, noone knows who will be good and who won't. It is a chance you take, and if you fail, you try again. What I won't accept is giving up.

It's not like offensive guards taken high in the first round have that great of a track record either. People just assume if an offensive guard is taken with a Top 15 pick then he must be some money in the bank future HOFer mega blue chipper. The truth is that NFL GMs have only pulled the trigger on an offensive guard with a Top 15 pick four times in the last 25 years. David Cadigan in 1987. Andy Heck in 1989. Ruben Brown in 1995. Chris Naeole in 1997. Ruben Brown was the only future Pro Bowler. Heck bounced around the league as a middle of the round journey man. Cadigan and Neaole were outright busts.
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
ABQCOWBOY;4435728 said:
Actually, it was about addressing Center, getting help in the pass rush and considering Guard later in the draft. I hear what you are saying Dooms, I just don't agree that there are no pass rushing options in this draft. I think there probably are, just like any other draft. In the end, it doesn't really matter. The Cowboys have their board and it may have DeCastro at the top of it or there may be a couple of other players there. Who knows?

There is option at pass rushing there is not much consensus in terms of big time pass rushers. Not saying one of these guys will be become a very good player just that the hit or miss seems to be a bigger factor than in past drafts.

In the end nothing any of us say is going to determine who the Cowboys pick as you said they will pick who they like and once they do you will get the normal mixed reaction from great to worst pick ever. In the meantime people are just giving the views and hopes to what will take place in the draft.
 

CATCH17

1st Round Pick
Messages
67,076
Reaction score
84,676
Doomsday101;4435705 said:
I agree but the thread pertained to pass rusher specifically that is all I was addressing. Cowboys could chose a CB,OLB,DE or even an OG

All I have advocated is getting the best player you can and one who also can help fill a need but don’t reach for a guy just for the need of a pass rusher.


Draft picks are not just about next year, this is where you hope to find long term player to keep the preverbal window open longer. You miss on 14 and it is going to hurt

Knowing the little you know about Aldon Smith and David Decastro who would you take?


There are 2 or 3 guys that could be another Aldon Smith. Not to mention there are some dynamic defensive players in this draft that can play all over your front 7.
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
CATCH17;4435760 said:
Knowing the little you know about Aldon Smith and David Decastro who would you take?


There are 2 or 3 guys that could be another Aldon Smith. Not to mention there are some dynamic defensive players in this draft that can play all over your front 7.

I have actually watched a lot of Aldon Smith since I watch a lot of Big 12 football. I have seen many of the Missouri games.

I think the guy is a pure rusher and right now is being used as a role player in pass rushing situations. I'm sure they will want him to add more strenght to be more of an every down guy.

As for who I would have taken chance are Smith but then he was a 7th over all pick.

In terms of there are 2 or 3 guys that could be another Aldon Smith maybe or they could be the next Spencer. We got one of those.
 

realtick

Benched
Messages
6,986
Reaction score
1
InmanRoshi;4435746 said:
It's not like offensive guards taken high in the first round have that great of a track record either. People just assume if an offensive guard is taken with a Top 15 pick then he must be some money in the bank future HOFer mega blue chipper. The truth is that NFL GMs have only pulled the trigger on an offensive guard with a Top 15 pick four times in the last 25 years. David Cadigan in 1987. Andy Heck in 1989. Ruben Brown in 1995. Chris Naeole in 1997. Ruben Brown was the only future Pro Bowler. Heck bounced around the league as a middle of the round journey man. Cadigan and Neaole were outright busts.

Chris Naoele was an "outright bust?"

He played 13 NFL seasons and started 150 of the 154 games he played for just two teams.

Beyond that, what does David Cadigan have to do with David DeCastro?
 

Deep_Freeze

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,181
Reaction score
3,395
InmanRoshi;4435746 said:
It's not like offensive guards taken high in the first round have that great of a track record either. People just assume if an offensive guard is taken with a Top 15 pick then he must be some money in the bank future HOFer mega blue chipper. The truth is that NFL GMs have only pulled the trigger on an offensive guard with a Top 15 pick four times in the last 25 years. David Cadigan in 1987. Andy Heck in 1989. Ruben Brown in 1995. Chris Naeole in 1997. Ruben Brown was the only future Pro Bowler. Heck bounced around the league as a middle of the round journey man. Cadigan and Neaole were outright busts.

Yeah its about time that we all admit that we don't know as much as we think about these guys, its not like we know them or how they will react once they become millionaires. Anyone can say the right things to get the money, and not follow it up with results.

Sure everyone can have their favorites based off of their own feelings about a player, but at the end of the day we don't know what will happen with whoever is picked. You gotta love when people take credit for being behind some guy from the beginning, like they had inside info and a crystal ball.

Its fun to talk about, but the bottom line is any player we are talking about could be a boom or a bust. There are 5 star athletes from high school, who don't even get to this level, meanwhile you got 2 stars getting drafted high. Its a crap shoot, but I will say, I'm willing to accept more risk if the reward is someone truly great.
 

InmanRoshi

Zone Scribe
Messages
18,334
Reaction score
90
realtick;4435782 said:
Chris Naoele was an "outright bust?"

He played 13 NFL seasons and started 150 of the 154 games he played for just two teams.

Beyond that, what does David Cadigan have to do with David DeCastro?

Alright, not outright bust. Middle of the road starter who was nothing special. Is that worth taking a guard with a Top 15 pick for? Bobby Carpenter is moving into his 8th year in the NFL with no signs of slowing down, does that suddenly make him a good pick for the 18th pick in the draft?

What does David Cadigan do with David DeCastro? If DeCastro is picked with a Top 15 pick he'll join Cadigan in a very small group of 5 guards who have been selected with Top 15 picks in the last twenty five years (with mixed results). Goose/Nate/Brandt etc. are entirely correct ...... NFL GMs really, really, really, really hate using a Top 15 picks on offensive guards.
 

imbatman

New Member
Messages
19
Reaction score
1
Just some additional information. If you were to look at a team's top 4 draft picks each season as the franchise's most valued currency in building a team, it is pretty interesting how the Cowboys have spent theirs over the past nine seasons.

At HB, the Cowboys have spent a first, a second, a third and two fourths at filling the position.

At WR, if you factor in Roy Williams, the Cowboys have spent two firsts, a third and two fourths.

At TE, the Cowboys have spent two seconds and a third.

Now compare that to the interior line. Over the last nine seasons, the Cowboys have spent one third and one fourth at OG and one second, all the way back in 2003, at C. A total of one third, one fourth and one second in filling three positions that are on the field almost the entire time the team is on offense. A lot of snaps.

Jumping over to defense, the Cowboys have already spent three number ones and a fourth on OLB in only the last 7 years. This is similar, as some have pointed out, to when the Cowboys spent four top draft picks over the course of six years chasing DEs (Carver, Pittman, Ellis, Ekuban).

On the defensive line, the Cowboys have spent one first, one third and one fourth. This includes zero nose tackles.

Don't know what all of it means, necessarily, but I found it interesting. This doesn't measure which picks worked and which picks did not, but it looks at where the team invested their most valued picks.
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
InmanRoshi;4435789 said:
Alright, not outright bust. Middle of the road starter who was nothing special. Is that worth taking a guard with a Top 15 pick for? Bobby Carpenter is moving into his 8th year in the NFL with no signs of slowing down, does that suddenly make him a good pick for the 18th pick in the draft?

What does David Cadigan do with David DeCastro? If DeCastro is picked with a Top 15 pick he'll join Cadigan in a very small group of 5 guards who have been selected with Top 15 picks in the last twenty five years (with mixed results). Goose/Nate/Brandt etc. are entirely correct ...... NFL GMs really, really, really, really hate using a Top 15 picks on offensive guards.

if it were the 17th pick would it make it better? I would not pass on a guy over 3 or 4 spots.
 

InmanRoshi

Zone Scribe
Messages
18,334
Reaction score
90
Doomsday101;4435846 said:
if it were the 17th pick would it make it better? I would not pass on a guy over 3 or 4 spots.

Those 3 spots equate to a 3rd round pick worth of value if you traded down. You may think a 3rd round pick is meaningless, but I don't.
 

realtick

Benched
Messages
6,986
Reaction score
1
InmanRoshi;4435789 said:
Alright, not outright bust. Middle of the road starter who was nothing special. Is that worth taking a guard with a Top 15 pick for? Bobby Carpenter is moving into his 8th year in the NFL with no signs of slowing down, does that suddenly make him a good pick for the 18th pick in the draft?

Lol, you're the one loosely applying the term "bust." Starting 150 out of 154 games in a 12 year career on just two teams is not in any way shape, form or fashion a "bust."

Dragging up Bob Carpenter doesn't apply either.

Carpenter has started just 10 games out of 89. He's on his fourth NFL team now and is not gauranteed a roster spot coming up this season.

What does David Cadigan do with David DeCastro? If DeCastro is picked with a Top 15 pick he'll join Cadigan in a very small group of 5 guards who have been selected with Top 15 picks in the last twenty five years (with mixed results). Goose/Nate/Brandt etc. are entirely correct ...... NFL GMs really, really, really, really hate using a Top 15 picks on offensive guards.

Okay, so he may join a "small group."

That has absolutely no predictive power to say what he'll be like as a player in the NFL. Cadigan's "failure" as a player has absolutely nothing to do with what type a player DeCastro is today.

BTW, even using Cadigan as one of your examples is bunk. Cadigan was a All-American OT at USC and was drafted as such by the Jets. So is using Andy Heck, who was an offensive tackle coming out of Notre Dame and was drafted as such. So really, your argument boils down to you simply not being comfortable based on NFL Draft history of taking a OG higher than #15. That's fine, but it's not a persuasive argument.

Further, I see you keep propping up Goose Gosselin on this issue. However, you fail to mention Goose also believes DeCastro walks in as a starter as a rookie and will be a Pro Bowler his second season. Goose also states picking DeCastro would "be a good safe pick." Funny you don't mention that.

Even funnier, Gosselin's article is titled: Why David DeCastro should - and shouldn't - be Cowboys' pick

Yet, you've interpolated the article and effectively are saying Goose is against taking DeCastro at #14.

C'mon maaayne.
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
Thinking of DeCastro as "only a guard" is so narrow minded.

DeCastro and Glenn are interior offensive players.

DeCastro can snap the ball.

Glenn can kick out to RT in a pinch, and some teams think he can play OT.

Drafting in the offensive line is about as safe as you can get.

Drafting in the defensive line is about as risky as it gets.

The best players in round 1 are guards this year, not centers.

The Cowboys need 3 new interior offensive line players, so drafting DeCastro or Glenn is smart business.

A blue-chip player is a blue-chip player, and the Cowboys have 1 blue-chip player in their offensive line.
 

Hoofbite

Well-Known Member
Messages
40,576
Reaction score
11,172
Its interesting how when a team like the Saints or Patriots are playing and you're in the game thread all you can read is,

"If Romo had that type of protection...."

"If Dallas had that OL...."

Yet here the team is possibly in a position to build towards that type of protection and the opinion is very much split.
 

Aven8

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,059
Reaction score
43,489
Hoofbite;4436035 said:
Its interesting how when a team like the Saints or Patriots are playing and you're in the game thread all you can read is,





Yet here the team is possibly in a position to build towards that type of protection and the opinion is very much split.

It's only because when we are up by 12 with 5 minutes left and Eli drops back with 47 attempts and no sacks against do we feel this way. ;)
 

jterrell

Penguinite
Messages
33,585
Reaction score
15,755
Doomsday101;4435567 said:
Great if there is one they feel good about then go for it but doing this in the past and ending up with Ekuban, Pittman and Carver all in the name of getting a pass rusher killed us. If guys have to big of a question mark don't do it just for the sake of claiming we got a pass rusher.

Ekuban, Carver and Pittman were all Anthony Spencers. OK Carver was just a flat bust but the other guys were average NFL players and that's the DE you get at pick 20 or later. Pittman was a round 2 guy.

That's why you want to use high picks on pass rushers. Because they are really hard to find later in drafts.

But all that side, of course you are correct. Dallas has to value the player at 14. I am fine with Poe or Janoris Jenkins or Ingram because to me those are definitely top 14 players. And what'll suck is on draft day they'll all go by 10 probably with my general luck. DeCastro, Kirkpatrick, Glenn and Perry are in a second group for me where I'd trade back a few spots and get one of them.
 

durrrr

Active Member
Messages
721
Reaction score
70
CATCH17;4435564 said:
I agree with Nate and although I think our secondary is really bad I think our pass rush is even worse.


Giving Eli and Vick all day to throw put us at 0-4 against the Giants and Eagles.

Our secondary was absolutely worse than our pass rush last year. It's not even close to being debatable.
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
Show me Leonard Little at 14, and I'll take notice. Little was an explosive demon of a pass rusher at Tennessee, and despite his horrific off the field trouble with the Rams, he was a very good player for the Rams. Little had proven explosive pass rush ability at Tennessee, and his 28 career sacks for the Vols ranked 2nd to only Reggie White (in Tennessee history). Little was an explosive, fast wrecking ball, and he impacted the scoreboard on the field, including the 1997 SEC Championship Game.

In today's NFL, Little would never last until the 3rd round where the Steelers wanted to draft him. Little was the classic 34 OLB, and he would be ranked right up there in the top 10 to 15 picks of this draft.

Show me Leonard Little, and I'll listen.
 

soccerbud

Member
Messages
172
Reaction score
2
Cowboys should draft the BPA at #14. And from all accounts, it seems like decastrano is once in a decade and a potential perenial All-star guard in the mold of steve hutchinson.

I rather have a player like that than a CB whose ceiling is a good but not great player.
 

durrrr

Active Member
Messages
721
Reaction score
70
41gy#;4435982 said:
Thinking of DeCastro as "only a guard" is so narrow minded.

DeCastro and Glenn are interior offensive players.

DeCastro can snap the ball.

Glenn can kick out to RT in a pinch, and some teams think he can play OT.

Drafting in the offensive line is about as safe as you can get.

Drafting in the defensive line is about as risky as it gets.

The best players in round 1 are guards this year, not centers.

The Cowboys need 3 new interior offensive line players, so drafting DeCastro or Glenn is smart business.

A blue-chip player is a blue-chip player, and the Cowboys have 1 blue-chip player in their offensive line.

Well, it is and it isn't. He probably does have the versatility to play Center, but I have little doubt that he'd be a fixture at Guard, even if C is the bigger need.

I completely agree, though. DeCastro figures to be the best player available if he makes it to 14. While there may also be a pass rushing OLB or DE with high upside available, they also probably have a reasonably high bust rate, too. DeCastro on the other hand, as you said, is a true blue-chip player with a high floor and exceptionally high ceiling.

I'm not saying DeCastro has to be the pick at 14 if he's there, but he's probably the best pick, unless something surprising happens.
 
Top