Nate Orchard in Round 2?

[BAT]

Cowboys need any and all pass rushers they can get! If being a 'clone of Demarcus Lawrence' is now a bad thing I guess you feel we should get rid of Lawrence too?

And somehow getting 18.5 sacks isn't considered improving at the position or coming into his own, it's a 'one year wonder'?

I guess no matter what the guy does, he can't win.

I prefere a guy who got 19 sacks and 13 the year before. And not only is THAT guy more productive but more consistent, and all that in the more competitive Pac 12 instead of the Mountain West.

 

[Stash]

I prefere a guy who got 19 sacks and 13 the year before. And not only is THAT guy more productive but more consistent, and all that in the more competitive Pac 12 instead of the Mountain West.

Fair enough, but reports question his ability to play DE and hold up against the run even more than they do Orchard.

And I'm not devaluing Orchard's production based on conference because he played and did well against quality competition. Just ask Andrus Peat who many are predicting to be a first round lineman.

 

[BAT]

Fair enough, but reports question his ability to play DE and hold up against the run even more than they do Orchard.

And I'm not devaluing Orchard's production based on conference because he played and did well against quality competition. Just ask Andrus Peat who many are predicting to be a first round lineman.

Not an Orchard hater, just believe Kikaha is more explosive, more productively consistent, plays with better technique, high motor Marinelli type hustle, better intangibles but mostly just better value. Do not want to overdraft Orchard in the 1st if all the slam dunk blue chippers are gone.

 

[Stash]

Not an Orchard hater, just believe Kikaha is more explosive, more productively consistent, plays with better technique, high motor Marinelli type hustle, better intangibles but mostly just better value. Do not want to overdraft Orchard in the 1st if all the slam dunk blue chippers are gone.

That seems fair enough. Different strokes.

 

[ccb04]

I prefere a guy who got 19 sacks and 13 the year before. And not only is THAT guy more productive but more consistent, and all that in the more competitive Pac 12 instead of the Mountain West.

I like both Orchard & HK. Utah plays in the Pac 12 as well. HK's most productive season came at OLB in the 3-4.

Orchard had 11 tackles & 4 sacks vs. UCLA. He also had 10 tackles, 3.5 sacks & a forced fumble against Stanford & 1st round OT Peat. Orchard also didn't have players like Danny Shelton and Shaq Thompson in the front 7 with him.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I prefere a guy who got 19 sacks and 13 the year before. And not only is THAT guy more productive but more consistent, and all that in the more competitive Pac 12 instead of the Mountain West.

I am confused on this post. Orchard had 18.5 sacks in 2014 and 3.5 in 2013.

Lawrence got 10.5 in 2013 and 9.5 in 2012.

 

[BAT]

I am confused on this post. Orchard had 18.5 sacks in 2014 and 3.5 in 2013.

Lawrence got 10.5 in 2013 and 9.5 in 2012.

I was referring to Kikaha. Stash was able to decipher my encrypted wording.

 

[BAT]

I like both Orchard & HK. Utah plays in the Pac 12 as well. HK's most productive season came at OLB in the 3-4.

Orchard had 11 tackles & 4 sacks vs. UCLA. He also had 10 tackles, 3.5 sacks & a forced fumble against Stanford & 1st round OT Peat. Orchard also didn't have players like Danny Shelton and Shaq Thompson in the front 7 with him.

My bad. I get all those Utah schools mixed up. You sound like you watch a lot of PAC 12 games, if so you have seen that Kikaha is the first guy off the line. His burst is special. If anyone is getting help, I would say those 2 guys benefited just as much if not more due to Kikaha's pressure. And Kikaha did not get the majority of his sacks in a handful of games. Kikaha had at least a sack in every game in 2014.

 

[BAT]

I like both Orchard & HK. Utah plays in the Pac 12 as well. HK's most productive season came at OLB in the 3-4.

U-Dub basically played him like a 4-3 DE - standing up or hand in dirt, Kikaha did not have many if any coverage responsibilities. He chased the QB on literally every down.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I was referring to Kikaha. Stash was able to decipher my encrypted wording.

Gotcha. My bad Bat. Sorry about that.

 

[ccb04]

My bad. I get all those Utah schools mixed up. You sound like you watch a lot of PAC 12 games, if so you have seen that Kikaha is the first guy off the line. His burst is special. If anyone is getting help, I would say those 2 guys benefited just as much if not more due to Kikaha's pressure. And Kikaha did not get the majority of his sacks in a handful of games. Kikaha had at least a sack in every game in 2014.

I like Kikaha and wouldn't have a problem taking him. If I could have anyone off that UW defense though...it would be Danny Shelton. He commanded double teams like few in college football, while also producing some impressive stats for such a big guy. The defensive unit benefitted from HK's presence no doubt, but he had more help than Orchard overall, particularly in terms of the caliber of talent. Here are some numbers of 2 other D-linemen on the Huskies:

Danny Shelton: 93 tackles, 16.5 tackles for loss, 9 sacks

Andrew Hudson: 77 tackles, 15.5 tackles for loss, 12.5 sacks

Utah runs a fairly aggressive scheme...so several players accumulate a few sacks. The next closet person to Orchard had 8.5 sacks...10 fewer sacks than him. Next closet to Kikaha was 6.5 shy of him. But Orchard was the primary focus of every opposing offense, while Washington had 1st round prospects Shelton, Thompson, and even CB Marcus Peters for a time...in addition to HK & other guys like Hudson.

HK's consistency is one of the things to like about him...as is the burst you mentioned, his motor/hand usage, & fantastic production.

I don't mind a player getting a few sacks in bunches like Orchard did in the UCLA & Stanford games, as it was against 2 solid opponents, and Stanford featured a 1st round NFL OT.

Aside from the combined 21 tackles & 7.5 sacks Orchard recorded in the UCLA & Stanford games...he also did well against some other decent opponents:

Oregon: 8 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble

USC: 6 tackles, 1/2 sack

Arizona: 6 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 sack

Arizona St: 10 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 sack

 

[xwalker]

Not an Orchard hater, just believe Kikaha is more explosive, more productively consistent, plays with better technique, high motor Marinelli type hustle, better intangibles but mostly just better value. Do not want to overdraft Orchard in the 1st if all the slam dunk blue chippers are gone.

IMO, Kikaha is more developed as football player, but Orchard looks like he has more upside. There's not a drastic difference either way.

I'm fine with a player that has blown an ACL, but when it has happened twice in the same knee, I would be very concerned. The 3rd time could easily be a career ending injury.

 

[BAT]

I like Kikaha and wouldn't have a problem taking him. If I could have anyone off that UW defense though...it would be Danny Shelton. He commanded double teams like few in college football, while also producing some impressive stats for such a big guy. The defensive unit benefitted from HK's presence no doubt, but he had more help than Orchard overall, particularly in terms of the caliber of talent. Here are some numbers of 2 other D-linemen on the Huskies:

Danny Shelton: 93 tackles, 16.5 tackles for loss, 9 sacks

Andrew Hudson: 77 tackles, 15.5 tackles for loss, 12.5 sacks

Utah runs a fairly aggressive scheme...so several players accumulate a few sacks. The next closet person to Orchard had 8.5 sacks...10 fewer sacks than him. Next closet to Kikaha was 6.5 shy of him. But Orchard was the primary focus of every opposing offense, while Washington had 1st round prospects Shelton, Thompson, and even CB Marcus Peters for a time...in addition to HK & other guys like Hudson.

HK's consistency is one of the things to like about him...as is the burst you mentioned, his motor/hand usage, & fantastic production.

I don't mind a player getting a few sacks in bunches like Orchard did in the UCLA & Stanford games, as it was against 2 solid opponents, and Stanford featured a 1st round NFL OT.

Aside from the combined 21 tackles & 7.5 sacks Orchard recorded in the UCLA & Stanford games...he also did well against some other decent opponents:

Oregon: 8 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble

USC: 6 tackles, 1/2 sack

Arizona: 6 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 sack

Arizona St: 10 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 sack

Shelton is a man-beast. Thompson is way overrated. Is Terrell Suggs less of a pro bowler because he plays with Ngata?

 

[BAT]

IMO, Kikaha is more developed as football player, but Orchard looks like he has more upside. There's not a drastic difference either way.

I'm fine with a player that has blown an ACL, but when it has happened twice in the same knee, I would be very concerned. The 3rd time could easily be a career ending injury.

Orchard could get hit by a car. Or be a heroin addict. Those are career enders too. Kikaha in the 2nd or even the 3rd is much greater value than Orchard in the 1st.

 

[locked&loaded]

Orchard could get hit by a car. Or be a heroin addict. Those are career enders too. Kikaha in the 2nd or even the 3rd is much greater value than Orchard in the 1st.

uhhhh....lol

 

[xwalker]

Orchard could get hit by a car. Or be a heroin addict. Those are career enders too. Kikaha in the 2nd or even the 3rd is much greater value than Orchard in the 1st.

Orchard is likely to be drafted in the 2nd. He would be a good for the Cowboys 2nd round pick but I think there are several better players (primarily at other positions) for the Cowboys 1st round pick.

Injury history has to be giving a strong consideration. See Sean Lee, Matt Johnson, etc..

 

[BAT]

Orchard is likely to be drafted in the 2nd. He would be a good for the Cowboys 2nd round pick but I think there are several better players (primarily at other positions) for the Cowboys 1st round pick.

Injury history has to be giving a strong consideration. See Sean Lee, Matt Johnson, etc..

I agree. But there is a difference between injury history vs. actually being injured. Both Lee and Carter were actually injured when they were drafted. Kikaha is not injured now.

 

[xwalker]

I agree. But there is a difference between injury history vs. actually being injured. Both Lee and Carter were actually injured when they were drafted. Kikaha is not injured now.

Yes, in terms of draft day value. Obviously players that are currently injured will fall more in the the draft generally than just somebody with an injury history; however, for long term projections it does not really matter if the player is healthy at the time of the draft. Multiple injuries are a red flag.

 

[Avery]

I watched every Utah game this season. Orchard had a heck of a season, but I think he's a second round prospect. I think he's a 6-8 sack kind of guy in the NFL which is nothing to discount, but probably something that can be found more readily than at #27.

 

[SportsGuru80]

I watched every Utah game this season. Orchard had a heck of a season, but I think he's a second round prospect. I think he's a 6-8 sack kind of guy in the NFL which is nothing to discount, but probably something that can be found more readily than at #27.

I think he'll be there in round 2...