Nervous about our offensive line after hearing Big Nate's comments

[Bobhaze]

There were only two OTs taken after CeeDee; right after Miami took Austin Jackson who started out at LT for them and is now at RT with Terron Armstead at LT. I don't think there's anybody who would take Jackson over CeeDee today even with hindsight except maybe you. The other was a red flag guy in Isaiah Wilson that the Titans took and traded to Miami after one year where the Dolphins released him 3 days later. He then was on the Giants practice squad last year and is currently not on a team.

I wasn’t arguing for any particular player in the 2020 draft. My point is we have waited too long to address an ongoing problem. I love Cedee Lamb and I’m glad he’s a Cowboy. I’m just saying we are in a position now of reacting instead of being proactive before the problem is obvious.

Also I would add that since 2018, this organization has spent two #1 picks on WRs- one of which is no longer on the team- at a time when IMO it would have been more proactive to address our OL problems. Going into this year’s draft, it was already obvious we have OL problems. Maybe Tyler Smith will be an immediate star. Hope so. But it’s a gamble.

 

[gimmesix]

I don't recall any reports of back issues last season.

This seems accurate:

https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/tyron-smith/9392

You may be right. I can't find anything about it, but I thought I remembered him having some back tightness, but not necessarily to the extent that it landed him on the injury report. I'm probably not remembering it right, though.

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

Zeke or Pollard have to miss a few games.... now what?

We had a guy last year....rb played in, threw a td pass, and won a super bowl.....and we didnt do jack crap with him when tony and zeke were hurt.
Now what?

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

I had this same discussion with Asthma last offseason. If not for the extreme luck involved in the Micah pick, I was a strong supporter for Slater as the pick. As a matter of fact, many other highly competent rookie tackles could have been had as well.

But anyway, IF the choice had been Surtain or the South Carolina kid, I believe Slater would have proven to be the better long term choice.

Heck, he still might prove to be, lol.

Just kidding.(hopefully)

jmo

Funny thing..i thought micah was a reach. We take injured players, players who didnt play their sr year. Always reaching!
Micah was a hit for sure.

 

[75boyz]

I wasn’t arguing for any particular player in the 2020 draft. My point is we have waited too long to address an ongoing problem. I love Cedee Lamb and I’m glad he’s a Cowboy. I’m just saying we are in a position now of reacting instead of being proactive before the problem is obvious.

Also I would add that since 2018, this organization has spent two #1 picks on WRs- one of which is no longer on the team- at a time when IMO it would have been more proactive to address our OL problems. Going into this year’s draft, it was already obvious we have OL problems. Maybe Tyler Smith will be an immediate star. Hope so. But it’s a gamble.

True, because the 2nd and 3rd rd picks spent on the Connor boys appear not to have panned out. Although McGovern still has a chance at redemption as long as he's here I guess. Seems like if they're not a 1st round pick olinemen or an UDFA like Leary, Collins or Steele, then Dallas can't do anything with 'em. There's no in between.

 

[zekecowboy]

Should have been nervous about it before Nate talking about it. Seems obvious. I think WR is a concern too.

All you have to know is Lael Collins and Amari Cooper are not on the team any more and who the replacements are.

 

[Cmac]

We have Zeke to blame one more year for all the OL mess......right?

 

[Chocolate Lab]

People saying the team didn't prepare for anything... They used their first pick in the draft on a college LT. And one I think is going to be outstanding. He has size and ability, he's mean, he's intelligent, and he seems to have a good work ethic and mentality.

Is he more suited to G, maybe (looks like it to me) but he's very young and has a lot of growth ahead of him.

One other point: the OL from 2014 to 2018 or so isn't coming back. That was a once in a generation OL that was wasted by the new Sunday Night Football guy. Any OL is going to look weak compared to that one. But other teams win with lesser OLs than that and we'll have to also.

 

[kskboys]

I wasn’t arguing for any particular player in the 2020 draft. My point is we have waited too long to address an ongoing problem. I love Cedee Lamb and I’m glad he’s a Cowboy. I’m just saying we are in a position now of reacting instead of being proactive before the problem is obvious.

Also I would add that since 2018, this organization has spent two #1 picks on WRs- one of which is no longer on the team- at a time when IMO it would have been more proactive to address our OL problems. Going into this year’s draft, it was already obvious we have OL problems. Maybe Tyler Smith will be an immediate star. Hope so. But it’s a gamble.

This is where we're always at.

There's always a player we just have to have. What people keep missing is that taking that player often leaves gaping holes elsewhere. Which is why we cannot win a playoff game.

There are several players who could've fixed our ongoing DL problems. The most glaring example was taking MO over Fletcher Cox, a player many of us were screaming for.

Yes, we just couldn't pass up the talent of Lamb. Or Gavin Escobar, or Kelvin Joseph, or Connor Williams, or MO, or Bruce Carter....etc.

Our draft picks get much praise and we brag how many pro bowlers we have. And then we lose in the playoffs again because we can't stop the run. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............................

 

[kskboys]

True, because the 2nd and 3rd rd picks spent on the Connor boys appear not to have panned out. Although McGovern still has a chance at redemption as long as he's here I guess. Seems like if they're not a 1st round pick olinemen or an UDFA like Leary, Collins or Steele, then Dallas can't do anything with 'em. There's no in between.

The bigger problem is that we refuse to use picks in rounds 3-5 on road grader types.

 

[kskboys]

Funny thing..i thought micah was a reach. We take injured players, players who didnt play their sr year. Always reaching!
Micah was a hit for sure.

I should've sent you his scouting report. His comparison was a faster Brian Urlacher who was also a noted pass rusher coming in. He was actually a no brainer, and we got instrumentally lucky that other teams drafted dumb and let him slip. His downside was a solid long term starter

 

[Bobhaze]

This is where we're always at.

There's always a player we just have to have. What people keep missing is that taking that player often leaves gaping holes elsewhere. Which is why we cannot win a playoff game.

There are several players who could've fixed our ongoing DL problems. The most glaring example was taking MO over Fletcher Cox, a player many of us were screaming for.

Yes, we just couldn't pass up the talent of Lamb. Or Gavin Escobar, or Kelvin Joseph, or Connor Williams, or MO, or Bruce Carter....etc.

Our draft picks get much praise and we brag how many pro bowlers we have. And then we lose in the playoffs again because we can't stop the run. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............................

I think our front office overvalues sizzle and undervalues steak. The GM himself has literally said this. Sizzle sells. But it doesn’t win playoff games.

 

[xwalker]

I think our front office overvalues sizzle and undervalues steak. The GM himself has literally said this. Sizzle sells. But it doesn’t win playoff games.

They used 3 first rounds picks on OL from 2011 to 2014, now another 1 in 2022.
- Then they gave out big contracts to all of them when that time arrived.

They drafted 22 DL in from 2011 to 2022.
- 10 in the top 3 rounds (i.e. They averaged taking a DL in the top 3 rounds every year).

Back in 2012 Jerry reportedly paid highly regarded OL coach Bill Callahan similar to the average pay for an offensive coordinator.
- Jerry tried to over-pay Callahan to stay but Garrett hated Callahan and drove him away.

The best thing they done in recent years regarding the draft is to not over-focus on need and let the draft 'come to them'.
- A decade ago, Jerry would have traded up in the 2021 draft for one of the CBs.
- Instead, they stayed put and let the draft come to them which resulted in Micah Parsons.

We all know that their biggest fails on DL were due to wack-job D-Coordinator Marinelli, not because of something specific to Jerry.

 

[Jarntt]

1: Nate was not considered to have a high football IQ as a player.
- He was cut by Washington and signed by Dallas.
- He barely held a roster spot for a few seasons.
- He has blamed that on being too heavy, but it came out that Jimmy was worried that Nate might be too dumb.

2: Nate is not the type of ex-player that likely spends much time reviewing game footage or really studying a lot of practices.
- His contributions on the dc.com shows seems to all be off-the-cuff with no real preparation.

3: Zack Martin is considered to be a master of technique and have off the charts football IQ.
- He was 1st team All-Pro as a rookie.
- He did that despite moving from LT in college to RG in the NFL.

4: Nate would obviously consider the difference in OT and OG very significant since he failed at RT but excelled at OG.

5: Veteran players are held out of OTAs/mini-camps if they have even the slightest physical issue.
- Tyron did not have any back issues all of last season.
- Doctors had recommended the back/neck surgery about 5 years ago but he did not want to miss the start of a season recovering from surgery.
- His early move to IR in 2020 finally allowed him to get the surgery and still have time to recover before the next season.
- If his ankle had not been stepped on, he likely would have played all 17 games plus the playoff game.

6: It is almost impossible to know anything about Josh Ball.
- The OTAs/mini-camps were all without pads.
- Broaddus said that Ball 'looked small' standing next to other players.
- The dc.com guys including Nate for some reason often tend to echo Broaddus.
- They still interact at practices and other events despite Broaddus moving to The Fan radio station.

7: The dc.com crew often do videos where a couple of them are on the sidelines at practices.
- In the past it was most often Broaddus with either Helman/Eatman/other.
- I've never seen Nate do one of those practice analysis videos.

When you don’t like the message, discredit the messenger…

 

[Bobhaze]

They used 3 first rounds picks on OL from 2011 to 2014, now another 1 in 2022.
- Then they gave out big contracts to all of them when that time arrived.

They drafted 22 DL in from 2011 to 2022.
- 10 in the top 3 rounds (i.e. They averaged taking a DL in the top 3 rounds every year).

Back in 2012 Jerry reportedly paid highly regarded OL coach Bill Callahan similar to the average pay for an offensive coordinator.
- Jerry tried to over-pay Callahan to stay but Garrett hated Callahan and drove him away.

The best thing they done in recent years regarding the draft is to not over-focus on need and let the draft 'come to them'.
- A decade ago, Jerry would have traded up in the 2021 draft for one of the CBs.
- Instead, they stayed put and let the draft come to them which resulted in Micah Parsons.

We all know that their biggest fails on DL were due to wack-job D-Coordinator Marinelli, not because of something specific to Jerry.

Ok. But most of their OL moves were reactions to need IMO. Not planning effectively.

I certainly agree this team is better at drafting overall than 10-15 yrs ago. Credit the hiring of Will McClay. But I’m not ready to act like this front office “gets it” when it comes to roster building. Especially when it comes to the trenches.

 

[kskboys]

They used 3 first rounds picks on OL from 2011 to 2014, now another 1 in 2022.
- Then they gave out big contracts to all of them when that time arrived.

They drafted 22 DL in from 2011 to 2022.
- 10 in the top 3 rounds (i.e. They averaged taking a DL in the top 3 rounds every year).

Back in 2012 Jerry reportedly paid highly regarded OL coach Bill Callahan similar to the average pay for an offensive coordinator.
- Jerry tried to over-pay Callahan to stay but Garrett hated Callahan and drove him away.

The best thing they done in recent years regarding the draft is to not over-focus on need and let the draft 'come to them'.
- A decade ago, Jerry would have traded up in the 2021 draft for one of the CBs.
- Instead, they stayed put and let the draft come to them which resulted in Micah Parsons.

We all know that their biggest fails on DL were due to wack-job D-Coordinator Marinelli, not because of something specific to Jerry.

Disagree.

Firstly, the OL woes are mostly due to aiming at the wrong traits. We look for mobility first, when we should be paying more attention to power. We've done fine in the first round, and pretty much terrible after that. Because we are not giving enough credence to raw power.

Secondly, no, it was specific to Jerry. Jerry prefers long tall DT's. He does the same thing as he does w/ OL's, he concentrates on one trait, ignoring others. Jerry has a long history of ignoring DT's that are shorter, even though less height is mostly conducive to having good leverage, which means the player won't get pushed aside as easily. We have passed up DT prospect after prospect due to lack of height. Hargrave, NNadi, Grady Jarrett, Mike Daniels, Geno Atkins, Liuget. And those are just a few of the names that I wanted predraft. There are many more.

Counting the number of draftees is a weak way to analyze.

 

[xwalker]

The bigger problem is that we refuse to use picks in rounds 3-5 on road grader types.

• I agree that it would have been good to have taken a few more late round OTs over the past decade.
  • However, most years when they didn't draft one in the top 3 rounds, they drafted one later.
  • Looking back at the past decade, it's primarily 2016 and 2017 when it's surprising they didn't draft an OT in any round.
  • Free & Leary had departed after 2016 and Parnell had departed after 2014.

• Biadasz 2021 4th round.
  • He showed good power and a bit a nasty demeanor in college.
  • His weaknesses were more about limited length and limited athleticism.

• Josh Ball 4th round 2021
  • He was a mauler in college. That included Florida State where he was a better college LT in 2017 than Steele was at RT in 2020.

• Waletzko 5th round 2022.
  • Not a road grader per se, but he has good size at 6-7, 315 already.
  • He was a very aggressive player in college. He showed a bit of a nasty demeanor at the Senior Bowl 1-on-1 drills.
• Side Note:
  • Waldo was surprisingly similar to Tyler Smith in terms of style/demeanor and in terms of weaknesses.
    • It's not surprising that the same group that drafted Tyler also drafted Waldo.
    • He often pancaked defenders (Albeit he was at North Dakota State and didn't face top tier competition).
    • He did take a couple of defenders to the ground at the Senior Bowl.
  • He has terrific athletic measurables.
  • His issue was almost identical to Tyler's issues.
    • Terrible technique. Hands outside the pads, etc..

 

[JoeKing]

Was listening to a recent podcast of Hanging with the Boys and don't have a lot of confidence in our OLine after hearing Big Nate talk about it.

Nate was reporting about Tyron Smith already having back problems in training camp. Nate basically said if he's having it this early you can go ahead and assume he's missing significant games this year, which I agree with.

The crew started talking about Tyron's backup because we saw how much it hurt last year. They talked about Zack Martin's comment on Tyler Smith learning 2 positions as a rookie. Zack basically said that it's much easier to learn two positions on the same side instead of going back and forth because at least some of the technique stays the same. Newton doesn't sound too high on the remark though. Being practical, he said Zack is a once in a lifetime talent, was Pro Bowl caliber from day one, and what may look easy for Zack is not the same for Tyler. Much longer and funnier bit that Nate launches into on this and why so many superstars are not great coaches, but he's right. And this reminds me of a thread here asking if we should be worried that Smith wasn't on the starters practice team from day one, because that does worry me, and yes, Zack was on the first team from day one.

Didn't hear much good or bad about Tyler, just doesn't seem like Nate is sure he's the one at LT. The crew didn't sound very high on Josh Ball either. They didn't talk much about Connor McGovern either, at least not the parts I listened to. They were pretty much mocking our depth at offensive tackle right now. Nate's philosophy is that if the left tackle and center are not locked up, a team won't have much success, and can get by at the other positions on the line. His jokes about Dak better learning how to run again this year have me worried.

If you listen to Hanging With the Boys, Nate is always the practical one. He's not a homer like Irvin. He's not one of those guys who gets in the dumps like the rest of the media and fans. He keeps it light, practical and makes his predictions and observations like an everyday player using some good examples from his career or others to explain his points.

LINK BELOW if you want to listen to it. One of the better episodes I've listen to. It starts with a great tribute to MB3 from Jesse Holley. Some good stories about MB3 you don't hear.

Hangin' with the Boys: Remembering Marion (dallascowboys.com)

There are no recent episodes of "Hang'n With The Boys". That podcast has been on hiatus for over a month. Whatever Nate has said on that podcast was said back in June. Let that sink in. JUNE. Why let something said in June about our offensive line make you nervous?

 

[xwalker]

Disagree.

Firstly, the OL woes are mostly due to aiming at the wrong traits. We look for mobility first, when we should be paying more attention to power. We've done fine in the first round, and pretty much terrible after that. Because we are not giving enough credence to raw power.

Secondly, no, it was specific to Jerry. Jerry prefers long tall DT's. He does the same thing as he does w/ OL's, he concentrates on one trait, ignoring others. Jerry has a long history of ignoring DT's that are shorter, even though less height is mostly conducive to having good leverage, which means the player won't get pushed aside as easily. We have passed up DT prospect after prospect due to lack of height. Hargrave, NNadi, Grady Jarrett, Mike Daniels, Geno Atkins, Liuget. And those are just a few of the names that I wanted predraft. There are many more.

Counting the number of draftees is a weak way to analyze.

In reviewing the past drafts, I only see 1 DT over 6-4 in the span between Jason Hatcher in 2006 and Ridgeway in 2022.

• The majority of DTs going back to 2006 were under 6-4, including these players:
  • Odighi 6-2
  • Gallimore 6-2
  • Hill 6-3
  • Maliek Collins 6-2

Looking back over the past decade, I'm not seeing much in terms of under-powered OLinemen.

Power Players
Tyler Smith (The most powerful player in the 2022 draft, in my opinion).
Zack Martin
Frederick
Tyron

Connor Williams was drafted in the 2nd because he projected to be an option at OT.
- Obviously at OG he was under-powered, but I don't think they would have drafted him in the 2nd strictly as a Guard.

Connor McGovern was considered a power run blocking OC with questions about his pass blocking.

Biadasz did have questions about power; however, he was 6-4, 314 which is not small.
- He was good in space and understanding the scheme which projected him as a decent zone blocking OC.

 

[terra]

We needed more road graders on the O line and we got too many finesses players.
We needed some short trashcans full of dirt for the DT position and went for 'quick twitch'
and so we are where we are.