New WalterFootball Mock

[DFWJC]

Not a Warmack fan at all. Can you spell plodding?

Sounds liKe your mixing him up with Fluker or maybe Warford.
Warmack does not move like Cooper but he is elite and powerful..and moves just fine


I'd be thrilled with draft, but some of those guys are long gone when Dallas pick

 

[xwalker]

I swear there are about 5 people in the world that question Warmack's ability to pass protect and they are all on this board.

Just found this great read by the way for anyone who is interested http://turnonthejets.com/2013/03/the-film-dont-lie-chance-warmack-vs-jonathan-cooper/

From the article:

In this post combine lull, a few draft prognosticators have gone on record to say that Jonathan Cooper is a better OG prospect than Chance Warmack. This is most likely due to Cooper’s excellent combine performance.

People that are rating Cooper higher after the combine are putting too much stock in it. Cooper’s excellent performance didn’t tell us anything new.

I was a fan of Cooper long before the combine. In fact his combine was not as good as most people that have watched the game footage expected.

Like I stated previous, I don't dislike Warmack as a prospect, I just don't think he is quite as great as the hype that surrounds most Alabama players this year. Players on championship teams tend to get over-hyped. It happens all the time in the NFL were a player on a Super Bowl team gets a big Free Agent contract and might be OK but usually is not as great as he appeared to be while on a great team.

The Warmack is overrated debate was hashed out thoroughly here:
http://cowboyszone.com/forums/dallascowboys.php?t=253490&highlight=warmack

 

[Eskimo]

I swear there are about 5 people in the world that question Warmack's ability to pass protect and they are all on this board.

Just found this great read by the way for anyone who is interested http://turnonthejets.com/2013/03/the-film-dont-lie-chance-warmack-vs-jonathan-cooper/

I read his analysis but I really think he is underestimating Cooper's power. He had a good bench, vertical and broad jump. I've seen him do quite well drive blocking DL one-on-one whereas I've seen Chance do more of his damage in combo blocks. I also really believe Cooper will develop a bit more as he was fairly lean and has put on some more meat since the end of the season without sacrificing much speed. However, I don't believe Chance is going to get all that much stronger since he already has a fairly high fat content at his current size and was in one of the best weight programs in the country for a long time. Conversely, I don't think Chance is going to get any faster and worry that he could lose half a step as he ages that really costs him on the field given his marginal quickness.

I think both will be good but for what the Cowboys seem to want to do offensively I think Cooper is a better fit.

The point may be moot as I think Cooper will be gone and there is a pretty good chance Warmack will be gone, too.

 

[jobberone]

Sounds liKe your mixing him up with Fluker or maybe Warford.
Warmack does not move like Cooper but he is elite and powerful..and moves just fine


I'd be thrilled with draft, but some of those guys are long gone when Dallas pick

I may have gotten confused with him and Fluker being the same. You're right. I've taken a bit more interest in the draft than usual and I'm following a level of order above what's usual for me. I'm going to try and look at Warmack again later. Thanks.

 

[blackbull]

Betting the house on Matt Johnson. Lol!

 

[Ring Leader]

I would prefer Cooper as well, but when was the last time we had an interior lineman that we could run behind to get a tough 1 or 2 yards for a first down or touchdown?

Warmack could be a good consolation prize in these situations that require a road grader for those tough 3rd-1 or 4th-1 up the gut runs that currently get stuffed 1-3 times per game.

 

[tm1119]

I read his analysis but I really think he is underestimating Cooper's power. He had a good bench, vertical and broad jump. I've seen him do quite well drive blocking DL one-on-one whereas I've seen Chance do more of his damage in combo blocks. I also really believe Cooper will develop a bit more as he was fairly lean and has put on some more meat since the end of the season without sacrificing much speed. However, I don't believe Chance is going to get all that much stronger since he already has a fairly high fat content at his current size and was in one of the best weight programs in the country for a long time. Conversely, I don't think Chance is going to get any faster and worry that he could lose half a step as he ages that really costs him on the field given his marginal quickness.

I think both will be good but for what the Cowboys seem to want to do offensively I think Cooper is a better fit.

The point may be moot as I think Cooper will be gone and there is a pretty good chance Warmack will be gone, too.

I think you pointing out his bench, vert, and broad is further proof that people get too caught up in #'s and athleticism rather than what he did on the field. If you watch all the tape you will see a few cases of Cooper getting put flat on his back by on coming rushers. Now I will admit that it certainly wasn't the norm, but that is still something that shouldn't be happening against ACC competition. Cooper is by no means an overly powerful blocker. He relies more on footwork and quickness. Not that there is anything wrong with that, as I said I would have 0 problem with Cooper.

 

[xwalker]

I think you pointing out his bench, vert, and broad is further proof that people get too caught up in #'s and athleticism rather than what he did on the field. If you watch all the tape you will see a few cases of Cooper getting put flat on his back by on coming rushers. Now I will admit that it certainly wasn't the norm, but that is still something that shouldn't be happening against ACC competition. Cooper is by no means an overly powerful blocker. He relies more on footwork and quickness. Not that there is anything wrong with that, as I said I would have 0 problem with Cooper.

There are some plays against Tennessee and Georgia where Warmack gets blown-up and driven straight back into the QB.

IMO, Cooper is easily in the top 5 in power for Interior OL in this draft.

The only other "power" guy that also has really good foot speed is Alvin Bailey. Warmack, Warford and Frederick don't have great foot speed.

There are some OTs that might move to OG that would have both power and good foot speed. I could see Menelik Watson and Chris Faulk moving to OG. Also, while Fluker does not have good foot speed for an OT, he does have better foot speed than Warmack and could probably challenge him in the power category as well.

If Fluker had played OG in college, he might be the top OG in the draft. He has a good build for OG at 6'4-5/8", 339. The Alabama coaches said during his Pro Day that they should keep him at OT to start. With more research, I believe that they were trying to say that he would need time mentally to make the move to OG. While he is reported to be a great team guy and leader, he is also reported to be a very slow learner.

Again, I'm not against Warmack, I just think he is a little overrated.

FYI - Very little of my opinion on Offensive Linemen is affected by the combine/Pro-Days. I do like it if my analysis matches up with the measurables just as a double-check, but it just does not have a significant affect. The only OLineman whose combine didn't match what I expected based on game footage, was Menelik Watson. The primary measureable that I'm concerned with for OLinemen is Arm Length.

 

[Eskimo]

I think you pointing out his bench, vert, and broad is further proof that people get too caught up in #'s and athleticism rather than what he did on the field. If you watch all the tape you will see a few cases of Cooper getting put flat on his back by on coming rushers. Now I will admit that it certainly wasn't the norm, but that is still something that shouldn't be happening against ACC competition. Cooper is by no means an overly powerful blocker. He relies more on footwork and quickness. Not that there is anything wrong with that, as I said I would have 0 problem with Cooper.

But you're not accounting for the fact that with full-time training he is probably playing about 20 pounds heavier now than he did when he was an OL last year. That 20 pounds makes a big difference in the ability to drive block and anchor against large DL. He has gained this weight yet maintained his athleticism. He also gained the weight without looking sloppy (i.e. a big gut) which suggests he has the natural frame to handle this weight. He may very well put on 10 more pounds of muscle within a year.

I think this situation is somewhat analagous to Tyron Smith's. Everyone was a bit scared of him because he only played at around 280-5 pounds in college. That just wasn't going to cut it in college. Well with dedicated training he showed up at the Combine at 307 pounds and still looked fairly lean. I think he has added about 10 pounds since and may yet gain a few more. He has been able to contain this muscularity and can still pull and run as evidenced when he was the guy who tackled Boley in the Giants opener last year.

Physical development does happen and it has happened here. I think that is my point about estimating Cooper's power on the field last year and assuming it will be the same throughout his pro career.

BTW, I think Cooper was a pretty good drive blocker. I also happen to believe that Warmack's drive blocking has been massively overrated.

I think this OL would have failed last season even with Warmack in there. It mostly failed last season because of how bad Cook was. The year before we did okay when it was Holland-Costa-Kosier but pretty bad when it was Nagy-Costa-Kosier. The reason is the latter OL who had two bad run blockers in short-yardage in Kosier and Nagy while the other one had two good ones. Cook was so horrifically bad that it almost didn't matter who you had in at OG in short-yardage but it certainly didn't help that the two players were below average. The key to getting this unit performing properly in short yardage is more about getting Cook out of there than it is about subbing in Warmack for Livings who was probably the best of the 3. The real key is getting better play from the Center which will probably happen with the winner of Bern and Costa taking the starting job.

 

[DFWJC]

Betting the house on Matt Johnson. Lol!

Lol
I think we could be pleasantlysurprsed with Johnson, but you right....cya all the way.

 

[Idgit]

Lol
I think we could be pleasantlysurprsed with Johnson, but you right....cya all the way.

I want another S, too, but we did sign Will Allen to get some starting experience back there, and the team's pretty happy with Sterling Moore, who can take some safety snaps for us in a pinch, too.

Not to mention there will be a few veteran FAs sitting there for us after the draft, too, if we don't address every need we've got this week.

 

[morasp]

I want another S, too, but we did sign Will Allen to get some starting experience back there, and the team's pretty happy with Sterling Moore, who can take some safety snaps for us in a pinch, too.

Not to mention there will be a few veteran FAs sitting there for us after the draft, too, if we don't address every need we've got this week.

I've been impressed with what I've seen of Allen since we singed him. At least I'm not too concerned about him failing the conditioning test like Brodney Pool.

 

[morasp]

There are some plays against Tennessee and Georgia where Warmack gets blown-up and driven straight back into the QB.

IMO, Cooper is easily in the top 5 in power for Interior OL in this draft.

The only other "power" guy that also has really good foot speed is Alvin Bailey. Warmack, Warford and Frederick don't have great foot speed.

There are some OTs that might move to OG that would have both power and good foot speed. I could see Menelik Watson and Chris Faulk moving to OG. Also, while Fluker does not have good foot speed for an OT, he does have better foot speed than Warmack and could probably challenge him in the power category as well.

If Fluker had played OG in college, he might be the top OG in the draft. He has a good build for OG at 6'4-5/8", 339. The Alabama coaches said during his Pro Day that they should keep him at OT to start. With more research, I believe that they were trying to say that he would need time mentally to make the move to OG. While he is reported to be a great team guy and leader, he is also reported to be a very slow learner.

Again, I'm not against Warmack, I just think he is a little overrated.

FYI - Very little of my opinion on Offensive Linemen is affected by the combine/Pro-Days. I do like it if my analysis matches up with the measurables just as a double-check, but it just does not have a significant affect. The only OLineman whose combine didn't match what I expected based on game footage, was Menelik Watson. The primary measureable that I'm concerned with for OLinemen is Arm Length.

Good post. You seem to have looked at this in some detail. I like Bailey too. Do you think he would be a good fit in our system?

 

[RSM94]

Warmack, Logan and Taylor are in my latest mock too....so I like it!!

 

[blackbull]

I want another S, too, but we did sign Will Allen to get some starting experience back there, and the team's pretty happy with Sterling Moore, who can take some safety snaps for us in a pinch, too.

Not to mention there will be a few veteran FAs sitting there for us after the draft, too, if we don't address every need we've got this week.

Because those names would be ready to play when the bright lights are on. Funny. If We don't draft a safety in this deep class don't try to spin in positively. It's a circus in the secondary

 

[laythewood28]

I don't know about you all but if we got this draft I'd be stoked.

18. Chance Warmack OG Bama
47. DaMontre Moore DE TAMU
80. Bennie Logan DT LSU
114.Stephan Taylor RB STANFORD
151.Jordan Hill DT PENN ST
185.Conner Vernon WR DUKE

.

Give me shamarko thomas or philip thomas instead off logan in the 3rd and ill be a happy camper.

 

[Idgit]

Because those names would be ready to play when the bright lights are on. Funny. If We don't draft a safety in this deep class don't try to spin in positively. It's a circus in the secondary

Is it a circus? That's cool, because everybody loves a circus. Go be sad someplace else. I'm not buying it.

Something tells me our defensive staff isn't going to go into the season without adequate coverage at the safety position. It's the reason we covered ourselves with a 10 year veteran in FA before we even got to the draft.

 

[xwalker]

I think this OL would have failed last season even with Warmack in there. It mostly failed last season because of how bad Cook was. The year before we did okay when it was Holland-Costa-Kosier but pretty bad when it was Nagy-Costa-Kosier. The reason is the latter OL who had two bad run blockers in short-yardage in Kosier and Nagy while the other one had two good ones. Cook was so horrifically bad that it almost didn't matter who you had in at OG in short-yardage but it certainly didn't help that the two players were below average. The key to getting this unit performing properly in short yardage is more about getting Cook out of there than it is about subbing in Warmack for Livings who was probably the best of the 3. The real key is getting better play from the Center which will probably happen with the winner of Bern and Costa taking the starting job.

Agree. Average fans didn't hate Cook because he was a decent pass-blocker which is what is most obvious while watching the game in real-time; however, Cook was a terrible run blocker. Being 6-6, he does not have the strength to overcome the leverage disadvantage that he has in man-blocking. In Zone Blocking he is just to slow footed to get out and make the required block.

The run blocking was much better with Costa and somewhat better with Bernadeau at Center. Bernadeau was hampered by having Dockery playing RG. Dockery was done about 3 years ago.

 

[jterrell]

that's a fairly extreme collection of talent and I'd love it.

we would still need a safety but it's not like we don't have church, will allen and matt johnson. --ok perhaps that's why we need another safety....

but end of the day that would be extreme bang for the buck.

warmack isn't slow. he successfully blocked alex ogletree and manti te'o which are the top ILB in this draft class. he got to the second level without issue. no offense but arguing he is slow is simply lazy. there are a hundred cut ups of him destroying 2nd level guys in these forums.

 

[jobberone]

Ok, I went back and looked at Warmack against LSU, TN, and ND and then Cooper against Duke, Maryland and another I can't seem to remember now.

First the level of competition in a good bit different although ND looked more like the AC level. TN wasn't bad nor LSU. Maryland much better than Duke. I think the other team was VA or VT?? Noticeable difference between the SEC and the ACC.

Anyway, Warmack is definitely better than I thought but he's still slow. His strengths are mass, strength, power blocking and he's actually quite good with his skip block. He's ok with pass protection but he gets too high too often. He's so strong he generally still anchors well. He is not that mobile and he is not going to do a lot of pull pass blocking at the NFL level. He does not move well downfield nor does he block well at the second level. Not at all but if he gets his hands on you then that's it. He's not going to be able to do screens. But his skip block is very good. He works well in close quarters and his feet are good enough there to be effective. Put him in open space and it's a different story. Forget open field blocking where he lunges and still is ineffective. His zone blocking is pretty good BTW. I thought he did ok right or left.

Cooper does not have the mass and strength of Warmack but he's good for his body type. He has room to add some mass. His feet are very good and he moves well pulling to either side side including pulling to pass block. He is very good in space NFL ready there. He can get to the second level easily and he even gets beyond that and moves very well for a big guy. His power blocking is ok to good and nothing like Warmack. His zone blocking is better than Warmack but he does slide off defenders some which Warmack doesn't. He has adequate power in the ZB. He anchors well and generally gets good bend, extension and has a good base. He just isn't as strong as Warmack in pass blocking but he's much more mobile and keeps in front of his guy mostly. He leaves his feet too much pulling esp at the second level. He's going to have to stop that are they will retaliate eventually.

They are two different kinds of players and I think Cooper has more room to improve. I think Warmack is just going to improve with some footwork, bending and anchoring better. He stands up at times. He's NFL ready although he'll improve some over a year or so. If Cooper gets stronger and more massive without losing his feet and mobility then he can be special. He does not have the butt or thighs like Warmack and likely never will.

Both are ready to start although Warmack is more ready due to his strength and drive blocking. Cooper will be the better pass protector and be more versatile for Garrett's offense.

You choose.