NFL Supplemental Draft

[Vintage]

Does anyone have a breakdown of Brooks numbers vs what game and against who he got them- I cannot find much.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

Demarcus Ware never played against real high end teams....yet, he's done well thus far in the NFL.

And secondly, as LBer, you cannot control what opposing teams do offensively (as in where they run the ball). So, if he has a few less tackles, it might be bec. teams ran away from him.

That, or he was taking on blockers to free up his other teammates.

 

[burmafrd]

All I am saying is that I would like to see how he performed against the top teams. That is all. I cannot seem to find anything that details it.

 

[silverbear]

The only reason I keep saying "replacing James" is bec. James is a FA at the end of the year...

And Ayodele got sizable contract.

But the Boys still have like 10-12 mil of cap room left, Vintage... Witten and Roy will be the top priorities, but there's no reason they can't get James extended too...

If it came down to keeping one or the other (in favor of Brooks); then Bradie would be let go IMO.

I've gotta think it would be an ILB a little further down the depth chart...

 

[silverbear]

Does anyone have a breakdown of Brooks numbers vs what game and against who he got them- I cannot find much.

Went to the UVa website, and went through the game stats game by game for his 2003 and 2004 seasons in the archives (when he was healthy)...

As a freshman, he had 6 tackles, 0 tackles for loss and 0 sacks against then 7th-ranked Florida State... he had 9 tackles, 0 tackles for loss and 0 sacks against then 21st-ranked Virginia Tech... he had 12 tackles, 2 tackles for loss and a sack in their bowl game against Pitt... that bowl game was by far his best game of the season...

As a sophomore, he had 11 tackles, 0 tackles for loss and a half sack against then 7th-ranked Florida State... he had 12 tackles, 0 tackles for loss and 0 sacks against then 18th-ranked Miami... he had 6 tackles, 3 tackles for loss and a sack against then 11th-ranked Virginia Tech... he had 5 tackles, 0 tackles for loss and 0 sacks in their bowl game against Fresno State... the 12 tackles against Miami tied his season high (he also had 12 against Syracuse), the 11 tackles against FSU was his second high total... the 3 tackles for loss against Virginia Tech was a season high...

Don't know what you were hoping to prove, but it looks to me like he came up big in big games, against the toughest competition, pretty often...

I will give you credit for at least trying to find out the facts, though...

 

[silverbear]

I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

I think he was hoping to find out that Ahmad ran up most of his stats against the weaker teams the Cavs faced, and did less against the good teams... I have just shown that was not the case...

I just don't understand why he couldn't find those stats for himself, though; all I did was went to the Cavs' official website, clicked on their "Archives" link, then clicked on the "Game By Game" link, then on the "Defensive Statisticss" link... the hardest work was sorting the format out, the columns were all screwed up...

That's what I did for 2004, but for 2003 it was a little harder... I had to go through the articles on their archives, find the ones discussing the game just played, then click on the "Box Score" link at the top of the article, then the "Defensive Statistics" link...

Took me about 40 minutes, all told... about halfway through, I started to wonder if burma was worth it, but he seemed SO interested, and I wanted to help the poor guy out...

 

[burmafrd]

I tried those same sites and could only get offensive stats. They make it hard to get D stats- I should have thought of the bo scores but after half an hour of trying everything else I just got disgusted. Notice by those stats he did not get any sacks or many tackles for losses. SO how can you say he shined?

 

[silverbear]

I tried those same sites and could only get offensive stats. They make it hard to get D stats- I should have thought of the bo scores but after half an hour of trying everything else I just got disgusted. Notice by those stats he did not get any sacks or many tackles for losses. SO how can you say he shined?

He's an ILB, his sack totals are less important than his tackle totals... also, his stats might have been higher in all categories, if he hadn't played with a number of NFL caliber defenders (Chris Canty, Kai Parham, Darryl Blackstock, and this year Marcus Hamilton is a highly-regarded CB)... those guys were making some plays too, y'know...

Leave it to you to TRY to spin those numbers in a negative way... too bad for you that those who actually know something were sufficiently impressed to put him on their all-American teams, to make him a finalist for the Butkus Award as a sophomore...

Bottom line, I have shown that Brooks played well against the best competition, which is in direct rebuttal to your assertion that his stats were "inflated" by playing against weaker competition...

Once again, you were clearly hoping you'd learn some information that would put Ahmad in a bad light when it comes to his talent, and when the facts failed to do so, you're now reduced to trying to spin things... well, I don't know of any ILBs in the NFL who rack up big sack totals-- do you?? Consider that last year, Brian Urlacher and Mike Peterson racked up all of 6 sacks from the MLB or ILB position, and that led the league... clearly, if your standards for judging an ILB place emphasis on sack totals, you're being silly...

As for the tackles for loss issue, he had 5 in 7 games against ranked teams, or bowl teams... that would work out to 11 tackles for loss in an NFL-style 16 game season, which are numbers I'd accept... last but not least, 3 of those 7 games were played when he was a true freshman, and for ANY true freshman to be starting for a team talented enough to play in a bowl game is pretty impressive all by itself...

Most important, what you clearly hoped to prove, that Brooks fattened his stats against lesser competition, has been clearly DISproved...

 

[burmafrd]

I am not impressed by his stats. A lot of LB's are nominated for the Butkus.
I just do not see where he is as all world as you claim he is. Still have not shown how his stats stack up against Carpenter and Burnett. You seem eager to show HIS stats. Why not show theirs?

 

[silverbear]

I just happened to notice something about you, burma, that I thought I'd point out, since you recently sneered at the number of posts I make... seems that since you've joined this board, you've averaged 9.39 posts per day, while I've averaged 5.67... I've been hanging out in here 14 months longer than you have, and have exactly 417 more posts...

So you might want to forego the pleasure of sneering at me for my posting patterns... yeah, I've been posting more often to this thread, but you're basically arguing with one guy, while I'm arguing, debating and discussing this issue with a number of y'all...

Don't know why your post count didn't register on me back when you were tryin' to put me down for that, LOL...

 

[burmafrd]

Yes I have been more active lately- I have had the time and have had some interesting threads to work on. But being active sporatically is different from posting 20 a day for months on end. But I have not been obsessed as SOME are.

 

[silverbear]

I am not impressed by his stats. A lot of LB's are nominated for the Butkus.

Only three are FINALISTS each year... and it is VERY rare for a SOPHOMORE to make that cut...

If you're not impressed by his stats, it's simply because you don't WANT to be impressed by them...

Still have not shown how his stats stack up against Carpenter and Burnett. You seem eager to show HIS stats. Why not show theirs?

First, because they played OUTSIDE linebacker, while Ahmad played INSIDE linebacker... more important, because YOU'RE the one claiming their stats are better, so it's on YOU to defend that argument... once again, if you're too freakin' lazy to defend your own arguments, then you won't be able to prove your point...

Aw, h*ll, OK, I'll give you a quick little taste... it just took me about 30 seconds to look up Burnett's numbers over on the Tennessee website... he averaged 5.4 tackles per game, Ahmad averaged 8.3... he had 2 more tackles for loss than Brooks (22 to 20), but that was in TWENTY more games... he also had 4 FEWER sacks (8 to 12), again in TWENTY more games...

Worse for you, Brooks started 25 games his freshman and sophomore years, Burnett started 2...

The Ohio State website doesn't list the players' career stats in the bios, so I'd have to go through game by game to give you Carpenter's numbers, and I'm not gonna do that... for one thing, I don't have time right now, gotta go jump in the shower and get to work... if you want to, bring it on...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bobby's numbers weren't as good or even a bit better (he's also a VERY good linebacker, and I'm excited to have him on the team-- I think that if I had to make a choice between Carpenter and Brooks, I'd choose the guy we've already got)... but even if they are, your argument is still blown all to h*ll, because I've just clearly shot your argument down when it comes to Burnett... even when you carefully selected two of the linebackers, rather than ALL of them, as you originally asserted, your argument isn't factually correct... even when you try to compare apples to oranges, outside linebackers to inside backers, you're still WRONG...

This is what happens when you run off at the mouth without bothering to first check the FACTS...

Boy, you must feel really stupid right now... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

 

[TNCowboy]

I can't recall what the argument is, but Burnett's not a good measuring stick. He's not an instinctive player and is injury prone, and spent the majority of his playing time at OLB. Frankly, I was stunned when Dallas drafted him. I'd say that other than Jacob Rogers, he's the worst draft pick of the Parcells' era.

Brooks is (was?) obviously an immense talent, but, IMO, he's too much of a risk to gamble a high pick on. If the "2nd hand smoke" story was a 1st offense, I might give him the benefit of the doubt. But when you've already been busted once, have some other unspecified problem, and then test positive again, I wouldn't give that benefit. Even if it were "2nd hand smoke", it doesn't matter much to me. Given what the young man stood to lose, he had to know better than to be at a party where dope was being smoked (not that I believe that story).

 

[silverbear]

I can't recall what the argument is,

Burma claimed that Brooks was no better than any of the linebackers the Cowboys already have...

but Burnett's not a good measuring stick.

Again, burma was the one who chose to make Burnett and Carpenter his measuring sticks...

 

[burmafrd]

Thought Brooks was an OLB. Really don't need to do much there. Got Aye and James. Maybe Burnett. Nah. pass. Another pass rusher would be good- we got plenty of guys that can plug up the middle. Brooks is just not needed.

 

[silverbear]

Thought Brooks was an OLB.

More evidence that you were opinionating without really knowing the subject...

Look, let's see if we can put this to bed-- had you said that you didn't want him because he's too big a drug risk, I could have understood that... I still would have felt as I do now, that if the Boys take a look at that issue and are comfortable with it, then I'm on board, but if they don't like what they learn, I'm comfortable with them passing on him too...

But you and at least one other simply took your criticisms way too far-- that unspecified other labelled him a "thug", which is over the top, given what he really has been guilty of... now, maybe he is a thug in real life, and just hasn't been exposed as such yet, but unless there's concrete evidence of such, it's garbage to make such an accusation...

Then, the both of you have continually made a big deal out of him being fat, and I think both of you are knowledgeable enough to recognize that's completely unfair... he got fat because he got HURT, and the reports now are that he's getting back into shape... so to say you don't want him because of that is ridiculous... if he had a pattern of being lazy, not being in shape, that would be different, but he has shown no such pattern...

Finally, there was your specific assertion, that he's really no better than what the Boys already have... if you can't recognize that the guy showed serious talent his freshman and sophomore years (or if you can't admit that's the truth), then it becomes clear that you're just too biased to offer up a reasonable taste...

Dislike him if you think he's a druggie, and I won't really have too much of a problem with you... I won't agree that the evidence is conclusive in that area, but I will agree that there's enough smoke for folks like you to legitimately wonder...

All the other stuff is crap, though... it's just makin' stuff up to justify your not liking his drug history... as if you think that the drug issue alone isn't enough reason to want to pass on him...

I do believe it's pretty clear that the drug issue is your REAL problem with him, so stand up and own up to that... you'll find that there are a number of folks in here who agree with you, I think... it might even encourage them to sound off on this one...

You more or less painted yourself into a corner by taking a reasonable stance, and piling a bunch of unreasonable crap onto it in an effort to make your opinion even more compelling, and the irony is that doing so had the exact opposite effect...

And as for me, yeah, I'm a Cavs fan, so I appreciate Ahmad's play when he was healthy, and I get a bit of extra pleasure out of having him wind up playing for the Cowboys... the same pleasure I get from having Canty and Parham on the team... so I do naturally HOPE that his off-field issues aren't all that serious, and I've gone looking for reasons to believe that hope is not misplaced... I have, however, been willing to admit that I'm a bit of a cockeyed optimist on this one, and that I might be wrong...

And if I am wrong, if the guy cares more about drugs than playing pro football, then I don't want him on the team either...

 

[burmafrd]

I just do not see where we gain enough by taking a risk with him.
ON HIS PAST RECORD he is a RISK. RIGHT?
When I thought he was an OLB I actually might have been more willing to take a risk- since he is an ILB - NOPE.

 

[silverbear]

I just do not see where we gain enough by taking a risk with him.
ON HIS PAST RECORD he is a RISK. RIGHT?

Yes, right... never have denied he was a risk... the unanswered question-- and you don't have the first clue as to the answer-- is exactly how big a risk he is, and if his talent makes him worth the risk...

But again, that's the ONLY argument you've made that comes CLOSE to having any validity... the criticisms about his weight are entirely bogus, and the suggestion that he's not a good enough talent for the Cowboys to look at him is just ridiculous...

When I thought he was an OLB I actually might have been more willing to take a risk- since he is an ILB - NOPE.

Which is pretty bizarre, since the Boys are better off at OLB than they are at ILB...

At OLB, they have Ware, Carpenter, Singleton, and Boiman... at ILB, they have James, Ayodele, Fowler, Shanle and Burnett... but Ayodele is switching from OLB to ILB, he has played outside his entire career, so if the Boys were to add a talented ILB, he could easily move back outside, and flourish... Burnett was actually an OLB throughout his college career too, but the Boys are planning on moving him inside... perhaps if they had a REAL ILB, they wouldn't be talking about moving either...

So basically, you're talking about 6 natural OLBs and 3 natural ILBs in the top 9 players...

But no, the Cowboys couldn't POSSIBLY find a use for a talented ILB... LOL...

Like I said, if you'd just be HONEST, and admit that the REAL reason you don't want him is the drug issue, I'd at least have a little respect for your position... but all this other crap doesn't deserve my respect, or anyone else's...

 

[burmafrd]

Mostly is is for the drugs- BUT I still say that his talent level is not great enough to warrant the risk. If he was another Butkus, Nobis, Lanier, etc then that would make me a little more amenable to giving him a shot. BUT he is not at that level.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'd spend a 3rd on him but it may take more. He has talent but he could just as easily wash out of the League. There is no telling how he might handle money and a bigger spot light, each of which, he would surely get if he came to Dallas. He could complete the 34 if he worked out but it is a risk. He is not a risk worth taking if it takes more then that IMO.

 

[Vintage]

burm, but then, why did you say you were willing to risk it if he was an OLB?

At OLB, we have Ware, who we can probably rely on. And we just spent a 1st on Carpenter. Why would we need another OLB?

Ayodele has to make a transistion, and its not a guarantee he will work out. Plus, the backups at ILB are less talented than our backups at OLB.

Yet, you are willing to take the risk if he was an OLB, but now you wont, bec. he is an ILB?