NFL vs MLB - Cheating - Antonio Gates - HOF

[Swanny]

Interesting read. I appreciate the thoughts.

A big part of the reason the blind eye is turned is that these PED also allow guys to get back on the field faster. If you've been around here long enough you know without question that anyone who isn't just jumping right back from an injury is considered some giant ***** by a good portion of this board.

The same folks who call in sick when they have a minor hang over are on here talking about how a football player should rub some dirt on it when they've got a strain, tear, or other issue keeping them off the football field.


So I can't imagine how much more people would be pissing and moaning about injuries if these guys didn't use stuff that helps them get bigger, stronger, and recover faster.

You are right. But if the game is cleaned up and EVERYONE is clean then the long lengths to recover from injury would become the norm.

 

[conner01]

HGH or PEDs they are all using something that they shouldn't.

I just don't think they all are. I don't think the majority are but that is the perception of many fans
They bring that perception on themselves by not testing for HGH
But the reality is the number of players caught actually using peds is pretty low when you only look at actual peds
Some things including as peds in the testing are not actually peds but they are banned
I think this perception mostly comes from the huge blowup in baseball but even in baseball it still was a small number of players just a lot of big names

 

[JohnsKey19]

The voters won't even remember this when its time to consider Gates as a HOFer....

 

[hornitosmonster]

The NFL HOF is already full of steroid users. I think that MLB players got it worse is because of the individual stats and "sacred" homerun records which were clearly destroyed by players who cheated.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

LOL... Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But step back for a minute and remember this is about getting into the HOF, and not about your personal entertainment.

So let me ask you, "Do you think that players who have knowingly used PEDs deserve as much consideration for the HOF as guys who've played out their careers naturally?

Should guys that cheat by deflating balls and use video to cheat deserve HOF consideration? Or is that not as bad as PED's?

 

[xwalker]

It starts at levels below the NFL. The NCAA is one of the more corrupt organizations in the U.S.

What do you do as an NFL FO that is looking at a draft that has 70%+ kids using and plugged into the system?

I don't see college players coming to the NFL and going from Hulk to Bruce Banner like back in the day with guys like Danny Noonan and Tony Mandarich.

 

[Swanny]

I just don't think they all are. I don't think the majority are but that is the perception of many fans
They bring that perception on themselves by not testing for HGH
But the reality is the number of players caught actually using peds is pretty low when you only look at actual peds
Some things including as peds in the testing are not actually peds but they are banned
I think this perception mostly comes from the huge blowup in baseball but even in baseball it still was a small number of players just a lot of big names

I think it's more than obvious it is wide spread in the NFL. Especially involving injuries. And it's they don't use it then the Union should be fine with testing for the drugs. Actually the Union should want these guys clean regardless but its clear the Union is doing what they can to keep them from being tested for it. And it's clear the NFL doesn't care about the tests either

 

[joseephuss]

I don't see college players coming to the NFL and going from Hulk to Bruce Banner like back in the day with guys like Danny Noonan and Tony Mandarich.

I didn't see Noonan or Mandarich get smaller once they joined the NFL. They just weren't as good as they were in college.

 

[xwalker]

I didn't see Noonan or Mandarich get smaller once they joined the NFL. They just weren't as good as they were in college.

Mandarich changed from Tyron Smith to Doug Free overnight.

 

[perrykemp]

I entered this thread to shoot down the idea that Gates was HOF worthy and then I looked up his career stats (10,000 yards, 99 TDs) and decided I was wrong (irrespective of the PED issue)

 

[conner01]

I think it's more than obvious it is wide spread in the NFL. Especially involving injuries. And it's they don't use it then the Union should be fine with testing for the drugs. Actually the Union should want these guys clean regardless but its clear the Union is doing what they can to keep them from being tested for it. And it's clear the NFL doesn't care about the tests either

The perception is their own fault
But the fact is when MLB tested they found around 7% usage but people still perceive they all were doing it because in large part because many of the biggest stars were

 

[Hoofbite]

I have no clue why we as fans are OK with NFL players using PEDs and are not Ok with MLB players using them. We all know that NFL players are clearly on them humans are not meant to be this big and fast. Head injuries will continue to get worse in the NFL, along with tendon and muscle injuries. And the head injuries in the future will DESTROY the NFL. Lawsuits from the players will take down the NFL in the future because clearly the NFL turns a blind eye to the players taking PEDs. They catch the players that are dumb enough to screw up there PED schedule. NFL knows it and Fans know it. I do not think PEDS make a better product. If everyone was on the same playing field and NOBODY was on them the product on the field would be better than it is now. You would have players that actually use proper form to play this game we all love.


This conversation in my opinion is fascinating.

I haven't paid attention to the general sentiment to know if people approve of one but not the other, but I will take a stab at it.

Baseball is less predicated upon size, strength, and speed. You can play in the MLB without this trifecta and you could get away with just having one of them in the MLB.

Just the opposite in the NFL. You'd have a hard time in the NFL if you don't posses a respectable amount of each relative to the position you play. Just without the prerequisite size you almost assuredly won't play in the NFL, and possessing size alone will give you a chance.

In that sense, I think some people (I don't buy into the idea) want baseball to be clean because it's a better reflection of natural ability regardless of size.

Also, in the NFL it's hard to draw a direct line from a single guy who's juicing to points on the board. Even if a guy could become JJ Watt by juicing, JJ is only getting to the endzone playing his primary position a couple times per year. In baseball it's damn easy to see a guy who hit a home run that barely clears the fence - and would have been an out without PEDs - putting runs on the board.

Lastly, and probably most important, the all-time records are actually reachable in baseball if players juice. Nobody is juicing their way past Jerry Rice's reception record, Emmitt's rushing record, or Peyton's TD record.

By my (not that big of a baseball guy, used to be) count, 4 of the top 10 HR hitters of all time are juicers. Bonds, A-Rod, Sosa, McGuire. Throw in Rafeal Palmeiro and Manny Ramirez, and 6 of the top 14 HR hitters have juiced.

Longevity is not rare in baseball, but it is in football. You see a guy like Bret Boone hit 125 HRs in his first 9 seasons suddenly turn it on at the age of 32 and hit 120 HRs in his next 4 seasons, and it becomes blatantly obvious that records will mean nothing if PEDs exist to any extent in baseball. A 14-15 HR/year guy becomes a 30 HR/year guy.

With PEDs, Cabrera is probably within 250 HRs of Bonds, and at the age of 32 he could have as many as 7-8 years to get there. Of course, 10 years from now some other guy like Trout who entered the game just young and who can hit will be in the exact same position.

Just my opinion. I don't think either should be tolerated. The whole beauty of sports, IMO, is that people are doing things that the rest of us can't. If they have to use PEDs to get there, kinda ruins it for me.

 

[TrailBlazer]

There are no football "purists" like there are in baseball. The average age of football fans is getting younger while baseball is the opposite. Younger fans are more forgiving as long as you're consistently showing up on the highlight reel. Football is more win at all cost. Furthermore, how do we know it's actually steroids? Could it be marijuana or something like creatine that's found in every GNC across America?

 

[USMarineVet]

Should guys that cheat by deflating balls and use video to cheat deserve HOF consideration? Or is that not as bad as PED's?

Tough one. With regards to video, I don't blame the player. I blame the FO and/or coaching staff. With regards to deflating balls, I have to believe that was Brady's decision and if it wasn't he certainly knew about it. That has been proven. So, if a QB knowingly cheated in a Super Bowl, he would never get my vote. How others see it, I have no control over.

 

[Section446]

I entered this thread to shoot down the idea that Gates was HOF worthy and then I looked up his career stats (10,000 yards, 99 TDs) and decided I was wrong (irrespective of the PED issue)

And when you take into consideration what the position was before he (and Gonzalez) entered, and what it is once they leave the game, it's not even close. Now, everyone is looking for the next Antonio Gates.