Norv Turner... Offensive Genius... Stats...

[dbair1967]

Sorry Catch...

(I used to have some great dialogue with you on the other board...)

I'm just really pissed about this whole thing...

It just doesn't smell right or make sense...

its called a temporary fix to a problem nobody really expected...they can say all they want about Jones having a contingency plan in place for Parcells leaving, but I think they never REALLY believed Parcells wouldnt coach the team next yr

David

 

[Hunter71]

Yeah...

I think the Garrett piece was legit to bring him in here...There were always whispers while he was a player that he would be a good coach one day...

But if that's the ultimate direction, then let's GO...

Let's now wait 3 years to put him in there and build a really solid coaching staff around him...

You know, just as well as I do, that some players are going to tune him out immediately if they know he may not be around long...

 

[MossBurner]

Norv had almost zero input on the way that team was constructed, before and after 'lil Danny

blame your dumbarse owner and incredibly stupid former GM for that

David

And you think Jerry Jones will yield control?! Are you f'in kidding me?

 

[Crown Royal]

Wow - I see that what I said has gone largely ignored.

Again - scoring offense is not the deciding factor on if an offense is good or not. There are other factors. Base it off those stats if you feel like it, but any argument that Turner doesn't field effective offense is ridiculous.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Wow - I see that what I said has gone largely ignored.

Again - scoring offense is not the deciding factor on if an offense is good or not. There are other factors. Base it off those stats if you feel like it, but any argument that Turner doesn't field effective offense is ridiculous.

Well said CR.

I agree.

I think Norv's offense is usually efficient.

And this offense, provided TGlenn and TO come back, combined with Witten and Romo will be in my opinion the best passing offense that Norv has ever been associated with (talent wise). And it's passing offense that scores the points.

 

[Hunter71]

Here's the point...

You don't score you better have a damn good defense which we don't right now...

People commented here about these high-scoring offenses that he puts up...

Numbers speak otherwise...

And he had several years in DC with only a couple good years putting up points...

He lost numerous games in his career by 3 points or fewer and had an absolute meltdown the year he was fired from the Skins...

So, please tell me, where's this great offensive mind that people keep talking about?...

Where's this great tactitian who's going to outcoach Reid and Gibbs late in games?...

Because his history and FACTS speak otherwise...

And what should we base it off of?...

Total Yards per Game?...

That's a bogus number...

 

[Alexander]

Well said CR.

I agree.

I think Norv's offense is usually efficient.

And this offense, provided TGlenn and TO come back, combined with Witten and Romo will be in my opinion the best passing offense that Norv has ever been associated with (talent wise). And it's passing offense that scores the points.

The last time I checked last season, it was the most points we scored in any season since Turner's tenure here in the 1990s.

So why did that need to be addressed?

It won't matter how many points we score if we cannot stop anyone. Case in point the Detroit game. We moved the ball well. It didn't matter.

 

[Hunter71]

The last time I checked last season, it was the most points we scored in any season since Turner's tenure here in the 1990s.

So why did that need to be addressed?

It won't matter how many points we score if we cannot stop anyone. Case in point the Detroit game. We moved the ball well. It didn't matter.

Thank you...

Here we are looking at the offense when the friggin defense gave up over 150 points in December...

And we're looking to bring in a supposed "offensive genius"?...

Please...

We have a more glaring issue and this emphasis on Norv just shows how absolutely out of touch JJ is with reality and what we need...

He needs to get out of the 90's and start looking at his team of today...

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The last time I checked last season, it was the most points we scored in any season since Turner's tenure here in the 1990s.

So why did that need to be addressed?

It won't matter how many points we score if we cannot stop anyone. Case in point the Detroit game. We moved the ball well. It didn't matter.

Why don't wait and see what we do at the DC slot? Personally I think is more critical for the defense at this juncture unless we get another control freak for a HC.

I don't think Philly's defense is good due to their head coach EXCEPT for the point-of-view that he allows Jim Johnson to handle the show on that side of the ball.

It was the same in Pittsburgh... and Chicago.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Thank you...

Here we are looking at the offense when the friggin defense gave up over 150 points in December...

And we're looking to bring in a supposed "offensive genius"?...

Please...

We have a more glaring issue and this emphasis on Norv just shows how absolutely out of touch JJ is with reality and what we need...

He needs to get out of the 90's and start looking at his team of today...

So Andy Reid is responsible for the success of the Philly defense? Or the chin was responsible for Pittsburgh's or Marty was responsible for SD's or Billick was responsible for the Ravens?

It's the DC that's important-- and the scheme that person ultimately runs.

 

[Hunter71]

Why don't wait and see what we do at the DC slot? Personally I think is more critical for the defense at this juncture unless we get another control freak for a HC.

I don't think Philly's defense is good due to their head coach EXCEPT for the point-of-view that he allows Jim Johnson to handle the show on that side of the ball.

It was the same in Pittsburgh... and Chicago.

Why is the most glaring issue on our team NOT being addresses immediately?...

Garrett was hired to mentor Romo...

Done...

We have a 3-4 defense and no one to coach it...

NOT done...

And now we're bringing in a mentor to mentor a mentor?...

That makes perfect sense....

 

[Crown Royal]

Pretty much summed it up for me Winicki.

And regarding our offense last year - I am in the minority, but regardless of our scoring, I was NOT pleased with the offense. At all. It couldn't run the ball consistently, only at some points in the game, and eventually, like always, teams figured out that we don't move the receivers, don't alter their routes, etc. We should have been able to do twice as much with the talent on that side of the ball.

 

[Hunter71]

So Andy Reid is responsible for the success of the Philly defense? Or the chin was responsible for Pittsburgh's or Marty was responsible for SD's or Billick was responsible for the Ravens?

It's the DC that's important-- and the scheme that person ultimately runs.

You're missing the entire point....

We're NOT addressing our most pressing need which is defense and have this false sense that Turner is going to be a good head coach, hold down the fort for Garrett in 3 years and all will be good...

1) Turner is NOT a goood HC and a questionable OC...

2) We are NOT addressing our most pressing need...

3) We do NOT need a mentor to mentor a mentor...

4) And yes, the HC does have a say in the defensive system they run and the person who runs it so your point is moot...

You think the defense is completely autonomous from the rest of the team and coach has no say in it?...

Save the gameday calls, I think most GOOD coaches are involved in the planning for the week and give input during the game and at halftime...

THAT's what makes Reid a good coach and leader...

He can change his gameplan on offense and defense as the game goes on...

Hence the name "Head" Coach...

 

[MichaelWinicki]

You're missing the entire point....

We're NOT addressing our most pressing need which is defense and have this false sense that Turner is going to be a good head coach, hold down the fort for Garrett in 3 years and all will be good...

1) Turner is NOT a goood HC and a questionable OC...

2) We are NOT addressing our most pressing need...

3) We do NOT need a mentor to mentor a mentor...

4) And yes, the HC does have a say in the defensive system they run and the person who runs it so your point is moot...

You think the defense is completely autonomous from the rest of the team and coach has no say in it?...

Save the gameday calls, I think most GOOD coaches are involved in the planning for the week and give input during the game and at halftime...

THAT's what makes Reid a good coach and leader...

He can change his gameplan on offense and defense as the game goes on...

You give far too much credit to the HC.

The defense needs to be addressed by the DC.

And how do you know what GOOD coaches do or don't do? Do you have a position in life that allows you access to the inner-workings of successful NFL clubs?

I think Reid is a good coach and leader because he lets Jim Johnson run the defense as he sees fit-- with Reid's blessing of course.

 

[Crown Royal]

You're missing the entire point....

We're NOT addressing our most pressing need which is defense and have this false sense that Turner is going to be a good head coach, hold down the fort for Garrett in 3 years and all will be good...

1) Turner is NOT a goood HC and a questionable OC...

2) We are NOT addressing our most pressing need...

3) We do NOT need a mentor to mentor a mentor...

4) And yes, the HC does have a say in the defensive system they run and the person who runs it so your point is moot...

You think the defense is completely autonomous from the rest of the team and coach has no say in it?...

Save the gameday calls, I think most GOOD coaches are involved in the planning for the week and give input during the game and at halftime...

THAT's what makes Reid a good coach and leader...

He can change his gameplan on offense and defense as the game goes on...

One argument at a time. I am not going to get into all the other stuff, such as addressing defense, etc. This thread was made to discuss Norv's offensive ability. You stated that he is a questionable OC. I disagree. The scoring in his offense is not what his strength is. His strength is that he gets good production out of receivers, uses his TE effectively, gets the most from a RB and uses him in a great way - to hold onto the ball, and keeps his defense off the field. Stats aren't going to show that, because Norv's entire philosophy is based around balance, not high octane offense. His SF offense is worlds better now that he is there, and it is still young and improving.

Now none of this is to say whether he will make a good HC for us or not. I am not even going to enter that into the argument. But to argue that he is not a good offensive coordinator is foolhardy, because the entire NFL disagrees.

 

[Crown Royal]

You give far too much credit to the HC.

The defense needs to be addressed by the DC.

And how do you know what GOOD coaches do or don't do? Do you have a position in life that allows you access to the inner-workings of successful NFL clubs?

I think Reid is a good coach and leader because he lets Jim Johnson run the defense as he sees fit-- with Reid's blessing of course.

Reid's ability to get Johnson from Seattle and keep him there all this time is the greatest coup in the history of the NFL. Johnson is one of the top 5 defensive coaches in the NFL right now, and has been for some time.

 

[Hunter71]

You give far too much credit to the HC.



And how do you know what GOOD coaches do or don't do? Do you have a position in life that allows you access to the inner-workings of successful NFL clubs?

This is such a ridiculous comment...

So what the hell are you doing on the board giving your opinion about what we need and what would work?...

Do YOU have a position in life that allows you to act like a GM and make personnel decisions?...

Are you somehow better equipped to do so than the rest of us?...

That's the whole point of a board like this...

So I can give my opinion and vent if I want to...

And by the way, part of my comment comes from listening to Johnson, Bradshaw, Long etc. and the commentators during Philly games who continaully remark about Reid's ability to change gameplans and adapt during a game...

So yes, I think their comments qualify your concern about my "inner workings of a successful NFL club"...

But here's the difference...

I actually took the time to look at Turner's stats as a HC and OC since people are vomiting all over themselves about these high-octane offenses he puts up...

 

[DipChit]

So Andy Reid is responsible for the success of the Philly defense? Or the chin was responsible for Pittsburgh's or Marty was responsible for SD's or Billick was responsible for the Ravens?

It's the DC that's important-- and the scheme that person ultimately runs.

Thats true.

Which is why it's pointless to bring in Wade as an HC.. he could be as good as the chin or Reid or Marty as an HC (whichs he's not) but it wouldnt matter if his DC is weak.

You could say the same thing about Norv too or any other offensive minded HC.. wouldnt matter if his OC was weak.

Although in the case of an offensive minded HC there is the caveat that at least from a playcalling POV, so many of them call their own plays anyway.

I dont even remember... has Norv tended to call his own plays as a HC or not?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Reid's ability to get Johnson from Seattle and keep him there all this time is the greatest coup in the history of the NFL. Johnson is one of the top 5 defensive coaches in the NFL right now, and has been for some time.

And Reid deserve's every kudo in the world for that... but the point is that it's still the DC that makes that defense go and not the HC-- and that's the way it should be.

These people that are running around howling at the moon because we may not address the HC postion with a defensive mind need to get a grip.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

This is such a ridiculous comment...

So what the hell are you doing on the board giving your opinion about what we need and what would work?...

Do YOU have a position in life that allows you to act like a GM and make personnel decisions?...

Are you somehow better equipped to do so than the rest of us?...

That's the whole point of a board like this...

So I can give my opinion and vent if I want to...

And by the way, part of my comment comes from listening to Johnson, Bradshaw, Long etc. and the commentators during Philly games who continaully remark about Reid's ability to change gameplans and adapt during a game...

So yes, I think their comments qualify your concern about my "inner workings of a successful NFL club"...

But here's the difference...

I actually took the time to look at Turner's stats as a HC and OC since people are vomiting all over themselves about these high-octane offenses he puts up...

Sure you can give your opinion but there is a difference between an uniformed opinion and reality.

I can tell the difference between **** and shinolla.