Oh the humanity!

[rcaldw]

You have a propensity to put words into my mouth. I never said he had the best talent. I said he is responsible for collecting the talent we now have. For what it's worth, I do think we have good talent here but I don't think we have enough and I don't think that talent is developed enough. We're still too young. Show me any place I said he had the best talent. After that, you may feel free to appoligize.

I feel no need to apologize ABQ. I'm saying, and will stand by it, that you are a Parcells fan. You want to believe, and leave the impression, that he has left this cupboard with so many goodies that people are "coming out of retirement" in their desire to coach this team. MAN WHAT A TEAM!

I'm saying, that this has been a .500 team for 4 years now. I'm also saying that Sean Peyton took a HORRIBLE TEAM (3-13), and in ONE SEASON had them farther than Parcells did here in 4 years. The NFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

Now. How could Peyton do in 1 year what Parcells couldn't in 4? Did he have more talent? Or did he do a better job of coaching?

For me, I'm not completely sold on the idea that Parcells has accumulated all this FANTASTIC talent. I think he sells that. I think his friends sell that. I'm not completely sold. Better in some spots? Without question. Better overall? I can agree with that too. But do we still have some huge holes, some of which have to do with his philosophy and his choices? Yes, yes, and an emphatic yes.

In addition, I dont think he did a good job coaching. If you think he did, I am a-ok with you or anyone else feeling that way. I just don't, and I think 4 straight bad Decembers testifies to it.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Parcells was a failure because he only took his teams to the playoffs twice in four years here in Dallas.

That's why we all should be ecstatic Jerry is bringing in someone who has taken a team to the playoffs once in nine years of head coaching?

Call me a Parcells fan if you wish ... but first and foremost I'm a fan of basic logic, something in scarce supply among the Norv sunshine-pumpers. Its just a bunch over-sentimentalized, nostalgic, kumbaya around the campfire nonsense.

 

[smarta5150]

Yeah, I can't complain overly much about Bill Parcells. I never thought Parcells was the best coach there was out there and I new full well what to expect when he got to Dallas but I do think he is a great coach. You can pin all you want on him but the facts remain, he is in the Hall of Fame for Coaching football. He is still considered one of the best around and if he decided to come out of retirement today, the Cowboys would likely be the first in line to try and sign him on. Like it or not, those are the facts and they are not in dispute.

Was a great coach

Oh well, we can agree he'd be a great GM so lets leave it at that

 

[DipChit]

I actually think you made my point.

When Jimmy had the best talent, Jimmy won because he was a great coach.

When Landry had the best talent, Landry won, because he was a great coach.

You are the one saying that Parcells has accumulated great talent here. Fine. I can go that way with you if you believe that. So why didn't he win?

Or, you can say he just didn't have the horses that these other teams had. Fine. I can go that way too. So stop saying what great talent he has blessed us with.

That is what I mean by take your choice. If you say he is a great coach with the best talent, then I don't understand 4 consecutive December swoons, do you? 4 straight years?

Well the thing is, even if you're a good coach you still need talent and circumstance to win.

Look at Shanahan.. is he a good coach? It would certainly seem so, yet the only time he got anything big done was with Elway at QB. So he had his talent and circumstance early in his tenure.

BP on the flipside was getting the talent late. While he had a nice year that first year he had no QB to make the most of it.. among other issues too. It took til the middle of the 4th year to possibly find an answer at the position. By then it was too late to do any good in his own tenure. But of course he had other successes where circumstances and talent were right to make his case as a good HC.. even if it didnt work out here in regards to post-season wins.

So then we look at a Norv and say.. well maybe he hasnt had the talent and circumstance yet.. and perhaps thats true.. but how many whirls do you have to give a particular guy before you think his medocrity goes beyond talent and circumstance? 2, 3, 4?

 

[rcaldw]

Parcells was a failure because he only took his teams to the playoffs twice in four years of head coaching.

That's why we're all be ecstatic Jerry is bringing in someone who has taken a team to the playoffs once in nine years of head coaching?

Call me a Parcells fan if you wish ... but first and foremost I'm a fan of basic logic.

Took his team to the playoffs twice in 4 years.

The BEST YEAR he had here was HIS FIRST YEAR, which was mostly with someone else's player choices. Can you debate that? The only 10 win season he enjoyed here was when he came on the job fresh.

The LAST year he was here was his 2nd appearance. An awe inspiring 9-7 record, and including the playoff loss, we lost 4 of our last 5.

Man, your right, I wouldn't ever want to move away from that!

 

[rcaldw]

Well the thing is, even if you're a good coach you still need talent and circumstance to win.

Look at Shanahan.. is he a good coach? It would certainly seem so, yet the only time he got anything big done was with Elway at QB. So he had his talent and circumstance early in his tenure.

BP on the flipside was getting the talent late. While he had a nice year that first year he had no QB to make the most of it.. among other issues too. It took til the middle of the 4th year to possibly find an answer at the position. By then it was too late to do any good in his own tenure.

So then we look at a Norv and say.. well maybe he hasnt had the talent and circumstance yet.. and perhaps thats true.. but how many whirls do you have to give a particular guy before you think his medocrity goes beyond talent and circumstance? 2, 3, 4?

I never said otherwise Dip. I'm saying that you can't have it both ways. I read ABQ to be saying what a GREAT job of elevating the talent Parcells has done. Have I misread him?

Such great talent that everyone and their momma wants to coach our team.

Ok.

How did we lose 4 of our last 5 with that great talent?
How did we get smoked by the Eagles AT HOME with the division on the line?
How, when we still had hopes of a home playoff game did we lose TO THE WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE. The Dandylions?

If you ask me to buy the talent theory, then I have to say poor coaching.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Man, your right, I wouldn't ever want to move away from that!

Move away from it to what, exactly?

Norv Turner?

Wanna talk about his head coaching accomplishments for a moment instead of deflecting everything to Parcells?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I feel no need to apologize ABQ. I'm saying, and will stand by it, that you are a Parcells fan. You want to believe, and leave the impression, that he has left this cupboard with so many goodies that people are "coming out of retirement" in their desire to coach this team. MAN WHAT A TEAM!

I'm saying, that this has been a .500 team for 4 years now. I'm also saying that Sean Peyton took a HORRIBLE TEAM (3-13), and in ONE SEASON had them farther than Parcells did here in 4 years. The NFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

Now. How could Peyton do in 1 year what Parcells couldn't in 4? Did he have more talent? Or did he do a better job of coaching?

For me, I'm not completely sold on the idea that Parcells has accumulated all this FANTASTIC talent. I think he sells that. I think his friends sell that. I'm not completely sold. Better in some spots? Without question. Better overall? I can agree with that too. But do we still have some huge holes, some of which have to do with his philosophy and his choices? Yes, yes, and an emphatic yes.

In addition, I dont think he did a good job coaching. If you think he did, I am a-ok with you or anyone else feeling that way. I just don't, and I think 4 straight bad Decembers testifies to it.

Apparently your also not one to admit when your wrong. I never made the statement did I? I will acknowledge your avoidance of the question as proof that I didn't and move on from there.

This is a nice picture you paint with Payton but lets take a closer look. I will add that if you check, you will find that I have made this point before so it's not anything new. Under Jim Haslet, the Saints were already a team on the rise. It is unfortunate that they had the misfortune of getting there stadium blown away in the 05 season and had to basically play every game on the road and deal with all the rest that goes along with having a Hurrican destroy your City. The fact that Payton came in and had success is not a surprise to me. The Saints were already on the come IMO. Payton did a good job but it's not like he started from scratch. The talent on that Saints team is nowhere near what Parcells had to deal with when he arrived in Dallas. Lets not make that more then it is.

If you don't like the Job Parcells did, that's fine but don't get lost when and if we fall flat on our face in the next few seasons. I'm not saying Parcells was the perfect guy for this job but I am saying that his body of work here was incomplete. We don't know what another year would or would not have held for us. He was not fired. He left of his own accord. Further, he was wanted by Jerry so that does say something about what kind of job Jerry felt BP was doing.

 

[DipChit]

Well the talent thing is debatable. Theres no debating that it's better than it had been previously but I'm not sure that alone doesnt owe some people (not ABQ or anyone in particular) to think that the talent is not only improved, but really really good overall. That part I'm not so sold on.

Again if not at a number of positions... the QB position alone when the guy only has 10 starts under his belt. Was it more surprising that he lit it up in the first place..or that he came down to earth at the end? Obviously I'd say, the former.

Making the move to him alone could've tanked the season.. course BP isnt given much credit for putting him in a position to have some success.. he more gets blamed for the wheels coming off at the end everywhere else. And thats fine. Thats just the nature of the biz.

 

[rcaldw]

Move away from it to what, exactly?

Norv Turner?

Wanna talk about his head coaching accomplishments for a moment?

I'd love to hear it. Shouldn't take more than a sentence or two.

I'm not going to rehash arguments I've already made in other threads. I'll just go back to my initial title for this thread. "Oh the humanity".

A different view of the situation for every person. And God bless all of us.

I just hope Jerry makes his decision soon. If we are betting current trends I think the safest thing we can say is that NO MATTER WHO he hires, the drama of the past few days will far surpass the RESULTS.

We have a 10 year holding pattern of decline or mediocrity.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Move away from it to what, exactly?

Norv Turner?

Wanna talk about his head coaching accomplishments for a moment instead of deflecting everything to Parcells?

This is on point. This discussion is about rushing Parcells out the door because of some rediculous perception that he didn't do a good job here in Dallas. Was it his best Job? I don't think so. Was it better then what 95% of the coaches could have done here in Dallas under the same circumstances? I do believe that to be the case.

When this is all said and done, the origianl statement still stands. Change for the sake of change is not progress. It's foolish.

What's the solution from all who wanted Parcells gone? If it's Norv, what then?

 

[rcaldw]

Apparently your also not one to admit when your wrong. I never made the statement did I? I will acknowledge your avoidance of the question as proof that I didn't and move on from there.

This is a nice picture you paint with Payton but lets take a closer look. I will add that if you check, you will find that I have made this point before so it's not anything new. Under Jim Haslet, the Saints were already a team on the rise. It is unfortunate that they had the misfortune of getting there stadium blown away in the 05 season and had to basically play every game on the road and deal with all the rest that goes along with having a Hurrican destroy your City. The fact that Payton came in and had success is not a surprise to me. The Saints were already on the come IMO. Payton did a good job but it's not like he started from scratch. The talent on that Saints team is nowhere near what Parcells had to deal with when he arrived in Dallas. Lets not make that more then it is.

If you don't like the Job Parcells did, that's fine but don't get lost when and if we fall flat on our face in the next few seasons. I'm not saying Parcells was the perfect guy for this job but I am saying that his body of work here was incomplete. We don't know what another year would or would not have held for us. He was not fired. He left of his own accord. Further, he was wanted by Jerry so that does say something about what kind of job Jerry felt BP was doing.

Ah, the weariness of it all. Let me take them point by point.

1. I didn't avoid you at all. If I'm wrong I will quickly say I'm wrong, as I have done in the past. You want to deal with SPECIFIC WORDS, I am dealing with IMPRESSIONS you are leaving. I quoted you. You said that people were coming out of retirement to coach this team because of the rebuilding job (talent wise) that Parcells has done. Did you or did you not leave that impression? If you are willing to say that he didn't do a great job of talent acquisition, I will apologize gladly.

2. Parcells first year was his best year. That was BEFORE he started buying the groceries. If the talent here was so terrible (and I'm not disputing that notion entirely), then why didn't the team ever improve, record wise, from his first year? Will you give me an answer to this and not avoid MY point?

3. I won't get lost. I didn't know this board existed until I joined it, but I've been a Cowboys fan for life, so unless banned I'm not going anywhere.

4. If his body of work is incomplete here, who's fault is that?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Ah, the weariness of it all. Let me take them point by point.

1. I didn't avoid you at all. If I'm wrong I will quickly say I'm wrong, as I have done in the past. You want to deal with SPECIFIC WORDS, I am dealing with IMPRESSIONS you are leaving. I quoted you. You said that people were coming out of retirement to coach this team because of the rebuilding job (talent wise) that Parcells has done. Did you or did you not leave that impression? If you are willing to say that he didn't do a great job of talent acquisition, I will apologize gladly.

2. Parcells first year was his best year. That was BEFORE he started buying the groceries. If the talent here was so terrible (and I'm not disputing that notion entirely), then why didn't the team ever improve, record wise, from his first year? Will you give me an answer to this and not avoid MY point?

3. I won't get lost. I didn't know this board existed until I joined it, but I've been a Cowboys fan for life, so unless banned I'm not going anywhere.

4. If his body of work is incomplete here, who's fault is that?

I think the issue your skirting here is that you would rather change the words to suit your argument as opposed to simply admitting that you were in error. However, if you would rather deal in the optuse, so be it. Yes, I did say that people are coming out of retirement. Specifically, Dan Reeves as case in point. Is this incorrect? Is he not now out of the NFL? Is he, at this time lobbying to try and get the job? Why? Because we suck and he would have to start all over? OK, yeah, your right. I don't know what I was thinking there. Moving on.......

I don't know that his first year was the best year. It might have been from the stand point of actual wins but in all honesty, we had a cake schedule that year and everybody new it. We got to the playoffs and were thumped. Last year, we really should have won our playoff game. We played well enough to win it. We simply didn't execute on the kick. Again I ask you, what should have happened there? Do you think Bill should probably have held for that one himself? That way, at least you could clearly point to it as his fault and in good conciounce state as much. I do think that his skill was shown in the way he held Carter together but other then that, I wouldn't say it was his best year her. I'd say last year was his best year.

I'm happy to hear that you'll be around for future results. Lets just please not change the words to suit the position, at the time, should it come to that.

There is no fault to assign with Parcells. He simply couldn't do it any longer. When your 65, perhaps you may feel the same way. Who knows? However, of this I'm certain, we are in an infinatly better condition upon Parcells departure then we were before he got her. Again, those are the facts and they are beyond dispute.

 

[rcaldw]

I think the issue your skirting here is that you would rather change the words to suit your argument as opposed to simply admitting that you were in error. However, if you would rather deal in the optuse, so be it. Yes, I did say that people are coming out of retirement. Specifically, Dan Reeves as case in point. Is this incorrect? Is he not now out of the NFL? Is he, at this time lobbying to try and get the job? Why? Because we suck and he would have to start all over? OK, yeah, your right. I don't know what I was thinking there. Moving on.......

I don't know that his first year was the best year. It might have been from the stand point of actual wins but in all honesty, we had a cake schedule that year and everybody new it. We got to the playoffs and were thumped. Last year, we really should have won our playoff game. We played well enough to win it. We simply didn't execute on the kick. Again I ask you, what should have happened there? Do you think Bill should probably have held for that one himself? That way, at least you could clearly point to it as his fault and in good conciounce state as much. I do think that his skill was shown in the way he held Carter together but other then that, I wouldn't say it was his best year her. I'd say last year was his best year.

I'm happy to hear that you'll be around for future results. Lets just please not change the words to suit the position, at the time, should it come to that.

There is no fault to assign with Parcells. He simply couldn't do it any longer. When your 65, perhaps you may feel the same way. Who knows? However, of this I'm certain, we are in an infinatly better condition upon Parcells departure then we were before he got her. Again, those are the facts and they are beyond dispute.

hhhhhhh, again, just because I don't use your words doesn't mean I don't capture your meaning.

Here we go again.

infinatly better condition upon Parcells departure then we were before he got here (infinitely better - your words)

Dan Reeves as case in point. Is this incorrect? Is he not now out of the NFL? Is he, at this time lobbying to try and get the job? Why? Because we suck and he would have to start all over? (your words)

Last year, we really should have won our playoff game. We played well enough to win it. We simply didn't execute on the kick. Again I ask you, what should have happened there? Do you think Bill should probably have held for that one himself? (your words)

So, if I'm reading you correctly.

1. You make the point that you believe we are infinitely better talent wise than when Parcells showed up.

2. Dan Reeves is exhibit A in making your case.

Now, let me state again what I've said about this.

****I have no problem with you making this your foundational argument. Parcells did a great job upgrading the talent. I can buy into that.

Sooo? Why four years of mediocrity? And if the talent is so great, infinitely greater than it was before, so great that coaches are coming out of retirement to coach this team, how do you explain us losing 4 out of our last 5; 1 with a division title on the line at home to the Eagles with their backup QB, 1 with a home playoff game on the line and the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, THE LIONS!!!!!!! Will you engage this point PLEASE??????

I would say, you (meaning me and those who feel this way) explain it with a poor job of coaching.

You say,

3. No, it was all about 1 bad hold by Tony Romo in a playoff game. Can I blame Bill for this?

My answer. No, I don't blame Bill for a bad hold. What I do believe the head coach has responsibility for is losing 4 of 5 in the fashion we did.

Now, if you can absolve him of any responsibility, as a coach, for four straight December poor showings, and losing 4 of our last 5 last year, including the final game to the woeful Lions, then you are just a Bill Parcells fan.

That is my point, and hopefully I haven't misused your words.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

hhhhhhh, again, just because I don't use your words doesn't mean I don't capture your meaning.

Here we go again.

infinatly better condition upon Parcells departure then we were before he got here (infinitely better - your words)

Dan Reeves as case in point. Is this incorrect? Is he not now out of the NFL? Is he, at this time lobbying to try and get the job? Why? Because we suck and he would have to start all over? (your words)

Last year, we really should have won our playoff game. We played well enough to win it. We simply didn't execute on the kick. Again I ask you, what should have happened there? Do you think Bill should probably have held for that one himself? (your words)

So, if I'm reading you correctly.

1. You make the point that you believe we are infinitely better talent wise than when Parcells showed up.

2. Dan Reeves is exhibit A in making your case.

Now, let me state again what I've said about this.

****I have no problem with you making this your foundational argument. Parcells did a great job upgrading the talent. I can buy into that.

Sooo? Why four years of mediocrity? And if the talent is so great, infinitely greater than it was before, so great that coaches are coming out of retirement to coach this team, how do you explain us losing 4 out of our last 5; 1 with a division title on the line at home to the Eagles with their backup QB, 1 with a home playoff game on the line and the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, THE LIONS!!!!!!! Will you engage this point PLEASE??????

I would say, you explain it with a poor job of coaching.

You say,

3. No, it was all about 1 bad hold by Tony Romo in a playoff game. Can I blame Bill for this?

My answer. No, I don't blame Bill for a bad hold. What I do believe the head coach has responsibility for is losing 4 of 5 in the fashion we did.

Now, if you can absolve him of any responsibility, as a coach, for four straight December poor showings, and losing 4 of our last 5 last year, including the final game to the woeful Lions, then you are just a Bill Parcells fan.

That is my point, and hopefully I haven't misused your words.

Oh, but because you change them, you do? Good luck with that one. You should be selling ice cubs to Eskimos.

Yes, infinatly better. We don't have a QB with substance abuse problems as the hope of our future. We have a good young QB for a very reasonable price we obtained for no draft picks at all. I'd say that's infinatly better.

We don't have a Hambrick trying to run the football for us. In stead, we have two good young backs, both signed long term. Infinatly better.

We don't have a aging FB leading the team in receptions. We have one of the better sets of WRs signed and in place as opposed to the likes of Antonio Bryant, Joey Galloway, Michael Bates, Zuriel Smith and Randel Williams. We don't have an aging Larry Allen eating up rediculouse cap. We don't have Javier Collins or Char-on Dorsey or Aaron Gibson or Jeremey McKinney or Soloman Page or Ross Tucker or Tyson Walters or Matt Lehr. We don't have a great situation at OL, IMO, but at least we are younger and at least we have 3 or 4 good players signed to reasonable contracts. Lets say moderatly better here.

We don't have Mario Edwards at CB or Derek Ross or Lynn Scott or Bryant Westbrook still on the team. We also don't have an aging Woody (which is unfortunate but also inevitable). Instead, we have Newman, Henry, Glenn, Jones, Watkins, Elam, Reeves and Davis. Infinatly better IMO.

We don't have Keith Adams or Dat or Coakley or any other midget LBs. Now we have Ware, Carp, Ayodele, Singleton and James. I'm going to say better and in a bit more time, Infinatly better but that remains to be seen.

We don't have Ek or Demetrious Evans or La'Roi (I'm sorry we don't have him) or Michael Myers or John Nix or Brandon Noble or Coleston Weatherington or Peppi Zellner. Instead, we Spears, Ferg, Canty, Coleman, Ratliff, Hatcher and Stanley. Again, I'm going to say infinatly better IMO.

We got a kicker who can kick. We got a punter who can punt, we have draft picks in the first round and instead of having to cut guys because we can't afford to sign them, we can actually go out and sign quality FAs. Not to mention the fact that we can sign our own guys. Infinatly better IMO.

I agree that we did not win the games we needed to down the stretch. No excuses, we should have won those games. Parcells is not obsolved of that but if your going to hold him to that, then you also have to give credit that he made the playoffs. You must also acknowledge that he coached us into a position to win that game. He did what he was supposed to do. The players did not execute. Was it Landry's fault that Jackie Smith dropped the sure TD against the Steelers and thus, his fault that we lost that Super Bowl? That arguement does not hold water.

I believe that young teams fade late in the season. It happens. I absolutly think it was a collective effort on behalf of all involved and I do think Parcells should be held accoutable for it but if you examine this, he is holding himself accountable by stepping down after a fashion. Still and all, when it's said and done, he put us in position to win and we didn't execute. That is not the coaches fault. There is no getting around that.

Dan Reeves is the only exihibit required to make that particular case in point. however, if you require another, I believe that Dennis Green also expressed interest in the job. Is he not out of football? Does he not qualify?

Lastly, just so we're all clear, the basis of this discussion was that you want Parcells out because you want a change for the sake of change. All this other BS is something you've contrived and managed to turn the origianl case in point away from. That is the basis for the discussion. While it's true we are vastly improved from when Parcells got to Valley Ranch and it's also true that Jerry would have re-signed Parcells for whatever he wanted and still would today, that is also not the original issue.

The original statement still holds true and no amount of mudd kicked up on your behalf can change that.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

ok rcaldw, we're Parcells fans

but what does that have to do w/ the fact that Norv Turner is a terrible head coach?

 

[1fisher]

Call it what you want but the fact is we we have been stuck in the mud for a decade now and Parcells proved he wasnt the one to get us back to our glory days.

I'm not here to argue who that man is who can get us over that hump because I honestly dont know.

I do know however that it was not Parcells.

you're in the minority here because some of these MRS CLEO types seem to know just how things are going to turn out.....

Norv sucks
Rivera is the savior of the franchise!

:laugh2: :laugh2:

 

[wileedog]

you're in the minority here because some of these MRS CLEO types seem to know just how things are going to turn out.....

Norv sucks
Rivera is the savior of the franchise!

:laugh2: :laugh2:

Don't know about Rivera, but there is plenty of evidence being summarily ignored that Norv does, indeed, suck.

I would categorize those who are saying "But this time he won't!" as more the ones predicting a future based on nothing in particular.

 

[rcaldw]

Lastly, just so we're all clear, the basis of this discussion was that you want Parcells out because you want a change for the sake of change. All this other BS is something you've contrived and managed to turn the origianl case in point away from. That is the basis for the discussion.

Really? Go back to post #1 and show me where I wanted change just for the sake of change? Can you do it? Can you go back through this entire thread and show me where I said that?

Or are you attempting to, uh oh, "PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH"??????


Is this kettle getting a message from pot?

Seriously though

I want change ABQ. I want change not just for the sake of change. I want change because we had an old, tired coach who wasn't doing a good job of coaching.

I'll tell you again, I won't take great issue with your point that the talent is upgraded. I think you made some very good points about that in your last point. My point is that better talent should get better results. It hasn't. Losing 4 of 5 isn't a good result. Spin it any way you want, the loss to the Lions was simply inexcusible.

 

[rcaldw]

ok rcaldw, we're Parcells fans

but what does that have to do w/ the fact that Norv Turner is a terrible head coach?

Summer, that is not what this thread was even about. Go back and read the first post. I haven't made one single argument in favor of Turner in this thread.

This thread was about all the moaning and groaning that is flying around from a thousand different directions. We have had every coaching name from here to Oklahoma thrown out as THE ANSWER.

I happen to think that Turner will do a good job. I have reasons that I think this, and I've listed them in other threads, and have no desire to repeat them.

I've come to the realization that we are all venting anyway. It's not our team. It's Jerry's team. We just get to watch and pay good money to do so.