Our former DBs excelling... It's the coaching

[Nirvana]

It's a shame we can't see what this defense can do fully healthy, with guys like Ware, Spencer, Bass and Hatcher on the line.

 

[Pessimist_cowboy]

Watching Terrence Newman and Mike Jenkins, they are playing well and disciplined. Like they rarely did in D. Seeing how poorly they played at the end of their careers here, and how poorly Claiborne has played so far in his career here, I am more and more convinced each day that the defensive back coaches for this franchise are just piss poor.

Relax on mike Jenkins he has been pretty bad this year .

Look at will Allen though . If this staff thought Heath was an upgrade they should all be fired .

 

[jterrell]

Various:

Dallas spends as much of front 7 play as anyone in football. We came into the year with a projected front 7 of Ware/Spencer/Ratliff/Hatcher. That's the best 4some in football if healthy. And the highest paid group BY FAR. They were backed up by recent highish round picks like Crawford and Wilber and quality depth like Lissemore/Hayden. The crying that we ignore front 7 play is just hilariously erroneous. Spencer/Crawford/Ratliff all never taking a snap is absurd. We had enough depth that we actually traded Lissemore for a pick.

The LB corps was Sean Lee, Bruce Carter Durant/Sims. That 3some was projected as amongst the best in football if 1 with zero real depth.

Injuries and other crap has killed us. The team should have faced the Jay Ratliff situation and dealt with it. Being over the cap meant not handling it properly.

The Safety play has been abysmal by design. We had nothing to start with and that nothing became undrafted rookie free agents when injuries hit.

We drafted man cover CBs because that's what we wanted scheme-wise for years.
We decided to hire a guy whose philosophy is a complete 180 from that.
Cover 2 teams need strong safety play.

You don't make hires in a vacuum. We tried to with Kiffin. He's too old to be around by the time we get the safeties and zone CBs he's used to and prefers.

But no sense writing him off now until we give him some healthy bodies back.

No DC is winning with what we threw on the field last week while facing Drew Brees in New Orleans.

 

[jterrell]

Relax on mike Jenkins he has been pretty bad this year .

Look at will Allen though . If this staff thought Heath was an upgrade they should all be fired .

Allen's deal was apparently we released him so he could start somewhere else. He was quite cordial in the parting and walked into playing time the next week.
Of course a week after that we lose our starter... good deal huh?

 

[Carolina Cowboy]

Yeah he was. Him playing well now doesn't erase what happened. He was wrecked over the last 6 games of his last year in Dallas.

How about this little tidbit of irony.

Brandon Carr is tied for 45th with Terrence Newman, according to PFF.

Morris Claiborne is graded 87th and the player who is immediately following him.......none other than Mike Jenkins.

Doesn't mean much really but it does kind of make you wonder what is going on when their castoffs go onto perform just as well elsewhere as their high-priced acquisitions are currently performing.

And a dollar for dollar comparison of the 4 is pretty damning for Jerry, given what other new toys he could have purchased with the difference.

 

[Idgit]

Various:

Dallas spends as much of front 7 play as anyone in football. We came into the year with a projected front 7 of Ware/Spencer/Ratliff/Hatcher. That's the best 4some in football if healthy. And the highest paid group BY FAR. They were backed up by recent highish round picks like Crawford and Wilber and quality depth like Lissemore/Hayden. The crying that we ignore front 7 play is just hilariously erroneous. Spencer/Crawford/Ratliff all never taking a snap is absurd. We had enough depth that we actually traded Lissemore for a pick.

The LB corps was Sean Lee, Bruce Carter Durant/Sims. That 3some was projected as amongst the best in football if 1 with zero real depth.

Injuries and other crap has killed us. The team should have faced the Jay Ratliff situation and dealt with it. Being over the cap meant not handling it properly.

The Safety play has been abysmal by design. We had nothing to start with and that nothing became undrafted rookie free agents when injuries hit.

We drafted man cover CBs because that's what we wanted scheme-wise for years.
We decided to hire a guy whose philosophy is a complete 180 from that.
Cover 2 teams need strong safety play.

You don't make hires in a vacuum. We tried to with Kiffin. He's too old to be around by the time we get the safeties and zone CBs he's used to and prefers.

But no sense writing him off now until we give him some healthy bodies back.

No DC is winning with what we threw on the field last week while facing Drew Brees in New Orleans.

I agree with most of this, except I don't think our current press CBs were really the issue for Kiffin. We don't need to run much cover two, and can make do with what we've got when we do. It'd help if we had the rangier S who knew the defense well to handle single-high coverage better. I thought Wilcox was coming into his own a bit before he was injured.

With Ware and Hatcher out, it doesn't really matter what we do on the back end. That NO game made it pretty clear what's going to happen if we have to sit back and play zone. It also was pretty clear we don't trust our guys to play man when we really need them to. We're going to have to start taking bigger chances offensively.

 

[jterrell]

I agree with most of this, except I don't think our current press CBs were really the issue for Kiffin. We don't need to run much cover two, and can make do with what we've got when we do. It'd help if we had the rangier S who knew the defense well to handle single-high coverage better. I thought Wilcox was coming into his own a bit before he was injured.

With Ware and Hatcher out, it doesn't really matter what we do on the back end. That NO game made it pretty clear what's going to happen if we have to sit back and play zone. It also was pretty clear we don't trust our guys to play man when we really need them to. We're going to have to start taking bigger chances offensively.

Can't disagree about Safety play at all. I think it is our worst overall positional group and has been since the off-season began.
Wilcox has potential but is a small school rookie. After him we are no where.

Also agree about injuries. Next man up stuff is fine for plays or even a game but season-long? That's just nonsense.

CBs style though are a very real thing. Kiffin needs to play zone CB to keep the rest of what he wants to do in place.
If he plays the Seattle style 4-3 over that is really a 3-4 he would be better off except of course when we play a Calvin Johnson, lol.
Safety play is making his job impossible and the CB play is limiting his options.
Carr has been adapting and Scfandrick has been solid. Mo needs to continue to build confidence and add strength and weight.
But any DC would take Carr, Mo and Scandrick as their top 3 CBs. Then they'd play press man coverage, lol.

 

[xwalker]

Watching Terrence Newman and Mike Jenkins, they are playing well and disciplined. Like they rarely did in D. Seeing how poorly they played at the end of their careers here, and how poorly Claiborne has played so far in his career here, I am more and more convinced each day that the defensive back coaches for this franchise are just piss poor.

But...I've it's been reported here that Dallas made a big mistake firing Rob Ryan.

We drafted man cover CBs because that's what we wanted scheme-wise for years.
We decided to hire a guy whose philosophy is a complete 180 from that.
Cover 2 teams need strong safety play.

You don't make hires in a vacuum. We tried to with Kiffin. He's too old to be around by the time we get the safeties and zone CBs he's used to and prefers.

But no sense writing him off now until we give him some healthy bodies back.

No DC is winning with what we threw on the field last week while facing Drew Brees in New Orleans.

IMO, defenses must be able to play both man and zone in the modern pass happy NFL. Top QBs will pick apart teams that play all zone or all man.

You can teach a CB with man coverage skills to play zone, but some zone type CBs can't play man.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I agree its either that and/or just bad drafting over time that has us still trying to dig out of a talent deficit with a cap problem. When you are constantly having to fill holes without the benefit of much FA cap flexibility then you are playing marginal hands at best.

IIRC, Corners are either the most likely or one of the most likely positions to get injured. They have to do a lot of the same running that WR's do so hamstrings are likely to get pulled, ankles sprained, ACL's torn. Then, they have to tackle. They are wearing smaller shoulder pads and that's when shoulders get separated or sprained, collerbones get broken, etc.

And those cover corners are expensive.

Right now, the top-3 pass defenses according to FO.com are:

- Seattle
- Carolina
- KC

Seattle drafted Sherman in the 4th round. He's a big, physical corner. Brandon Browner they got from the CFL as he was former college safety. Now he's a 6'4" corner.

I can't even name a CB off the top of my head in Carolina

The Chiefs have Brandon Flowers, a physical corner. But, they also have another physical corner in Sean Smith. Meanwhile they have Eric Berry at safety.

This ain't 1995. And these high profile 'cover corners' are not Deion Sanders.

And I like Brandon Carr. But we could have spent our time, money and draft picks by getting top-notch safeties and had money and draft picks left to spare.






YR

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

It was never the players. It was only a subset of our more talkative fans that aren't particularly adept at evaluating players in the first place.

If you're going to get angry at whatever player is in the frame on a passing touchdown, or if you can't get past a rookie ole after 3 years of playing hard for the team, you're going to be in for a surprise now and then.

Hi, Idgit. Meet Idgit.

 

[jobberone]

IIRC, Corners are either the most likely or one of the most likely positions to get injured. They have to do a lot of the same running that WR's do so hamstrings are likely to get pulled, ankles sprained, ACL's torn. Then, they have to tackle. They are wearing smaller shoulder pads and that's when shoulders get separated or sprained, collerbones get broken, etc.

And those cover corners are expensive.

Right now, the top-3 pass defenses according to FO.com are:

- Seattle
- Carolina
- KC

Seattle drafted Sherman in the 4th round. He's a big, physical corner. Brandon Browner they got from the CFL as he was former college safety. Now he's a 6'4" corner.

I can't even name a CB off the top of my head in Carolina

The Chiefs have Brandon Flowers, a physical corner. But, they also have another physical corner in Sean Smith. Meanwhile they have Eric Berry at safety.

This ain't 1995. And these high profile 'cover corners' are not Deion Sanders.

And I like Brandon Carr. But we could have spent our time, money and draft picks by getting top-notch safeties and had money and draft picks left to spare.






YR

I agree. You aren't going to get a lot of passes defended these days. We have 52 PD and KC has 70. So they have about 7 PDpg and we have 5. Not a huge difference but it matters a little. Pressures (hits, hurries and sacks) and INTs are more important although not saying PD is not.

So I agree, You need guys who can tackle and do it without getting hurt. They need to be able to move guys off their routes, press and play zone with range. In the end there is no magic formula to defend passes and make tackles. You just have to find guys who can do that and stay out of the training room. And I agree about the safeties. Somebody has to come down and play and someone has to stay back and make plays. Or both preferably. I like your formula. I've always said give me 6 big CBs who can tackle and are fast and smart as well as be football players and two slot guys. Easy huh.

 

[Idgit]

Hi, Idgit. Meet Idgit.

Hi?

 

[jobberone]

Hi?

I don't think that was a compliment but you handled it very well.

 

[Idgit]

I don't think that was a compliment but you handled it very well.

That's alright. He's just turning my own comment back at me. I can be magnanimous, because we all secretly know I'm right.

 

[jterrell]

IIRC, Corners are either the most likely or one of the most likely positions to get injured. They have to do a lot of the same running that WR's do so hamstrings are likely to get pulled, ankles sprained, ACL's torn. Then, they have to tackle. They are wearing smaller shoulder pads and that's when shoulders get separated or sprained, collerbones get broken, etc.

And those cover corners are expensive.

Right now, the top-3 pass defenses according to FO.com are:

- Seattle
- Carolina
- KC

Seattle drafted Sherman in the 4th round. He's a big, physical corner. Brandon Browner they got from the CFL as he was former college safety. Now he's a 6'4" corner.

I can't even name a CB off the top of my head in Carolina

The Chiefs have Brandon Flowers, a physical corner. But, they also have another physical corner in Sean Smith. Meanwhile they have Eric Berry at safety.

This ain't 1995. And these high profile 'cover corners' are not Deion Sanders.

And I like Brandon Carr. But we could have spent our time, money and draft picks by getting top-notch safeties and had money and draft picks left to spare.






YR

What else those defenses have is health.
Carolina has lost really no one on defense. They probably have almost exactly the same level of talent as us if we were healthy.
Great MLB, VERY strong pass rush group up front.
We are stronger at CB and they at Safety.

But you start getting down to 3rd in line at DT and DE and things get ugly for us quickly.

The other interesting thing is how cheaply those teams have it at QB.
They aren't paying franchise QB dollars yet.
That frees up a lot of cap space for quality depth.

 

[XxTDxX]

Mike Jenkins was never that bad here.. He always competed and played through a lot of injuries unlike some of our current players. Wish we would have just stuck with Carr, Jenkins, and Scandrick and not had traded up for a "ShutDown" Corner in the 2012 draft.. Look around the NFL there may be 2 or 3 shutdown guys in the entire league.. You can get by at corner with solid guys who compete and have good physical traits.. that first round pick in 2012 could have been a starting defensive lineman (Michael Brockers, Bruce Irvin, Quinton Coples, Chandler Jones) and that second round pick could have been a guy like Alshon Jeffrey, Bobby Wagner, Lavonte David, or Zach Brown..

Regardless I think that Jenkins was a decent player and could have been extended for minimal money and we went the wrong route on that one before he even got to play out his final year.

 

[jobberone]

That's alright. He's just turning my own comment back at me. I can be magnanimous, because we all secretly know I'm right.

Yes, I agree. We all know you secretly think you're right.

 

[iRepDatStar]

The games ive seen jenkins play he was terrible.. so i dont know where that comes from..

Newman its playing ok.. having the ball bounce his way but he isnt playing great.. id still rather carr than the newman we remember toward to end..

 

[jterrell]

Mike Jenkins was never that bad here.. He always competed and played through a lot of injuries unlike some of our current players. Wish we would have just stuck with Carr, Jenkins, and Scandrick and not had traded up for a "ShutDown" Corner in the 2012 draft.. Look around the NFL there may be 2 or 3 shutdown guys in the entire league.. You can get by at corner with solid guys who compete and have good physical traits.. that first round pick in 2012 could have been a starting defensive lineman (Michael Brockers, Bruce Irvin, Quinton Coples, Chandler Jones) and that second round pick could have been a guy like Alshon Jeffrey, Bobby Wagner, Lavonte David, or Zach Brown..

Regardless I think that Jenkins was a decent player and could have been extended for minimal money and we went the wrong route on that one before he even got to play out his final year.

I was one of Jenkins biggest fans here but he wasn't signing with us for cheap.
He wouldn't accept the deal we gave Scandrick.
Then there was the disconnect with the front office and a divorce was coming.

I REALLY wish they could have worked out something with Jenkins but it's really hard to tell a guy who thinks he is a stud he isn't.
Often-times that guy has to go somewhere else where he accepts it.

The saddest thing is we let Jenkins walk because his build and body were small and fragile for NFL CB play.
Then we traded up high and drafted a guy that is virtually the same size.

 

[XxTDxX]

I was one of Jenkins biggest fans here but he wasn't signing with us for cheap.
He wouldn't accept the deal we gave Scandrick.
Then there was the disconnect with the front office and a divorce was coming.

I REALLY wish they could have worked out something with Jenkins but it's really hard to tell a guy who thinks he is a stud he isn't.
Often-times that guy has to go somewhere else where he accepts it.

The saddest thing is we let Jenkins walk because his build and body were small and fragile for NFL CB play.
Then we traded up high and drafted a guy that is virtually the same size.

Well Jenkins played through most of his issues while Claiborne sits out a few games for every single nagging injury..