Payton vs Garrett

[ABQCOWBOY]

But if there are major roster personnel changes, wouldn't that mean that you'd find starters from OUTSIDE your current roster? But they didn't. 17 of their opening day starters in 2011 came from THEIR OWN ROSTER from 2010. And the offense, that made a complete shift in scheme from west coast to power running, started the year with 10 starters who were starters from the previous year.

And in the end, none of this really changes the underlying point. The idea that if we make a coaching change now means we are likely destined to have to go through growing pains is a total stretch.

There are examples where new coaches came in and won right away. New schemes, new players, whatever. There are coaches that won right away.

And your arguing in the Harbaugh point is even sillier when you think about it. Not only did Harbaugh apparently bring in two new schemes on both sides of the ball, he brought in new players according to you and STILL WON 13 games.

So explain to me again how if we change coaches we can't win right out of the gate under a new coach?

No. Changes to your starters, regardless of if they are on your roster or not are significant.

To me, the more significant point is this pie in the sky dream that you are going to get Payton, and now I guess it's Harbaugh, to come here and coach. Why would they ever do that?

Explain how that happens and then maybe we can have a serious discussion about a possible change.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well most of your post was that Payton would not have an immediate effect here in Dallas and that it will take a long time. I don't think you were referring to anything about Jerry and how his reluctance to not make the big change. If I missed that part so be it.

But the thing is that this is the rant zone right? Thus this is where we bring in our rants about Garrett or Jerry and the Cowboys organization as a whole. Otherwise if they want the truth - they can call it the truthzone.

Not true. My post are that it will never happen. He won't have immediate success here because he will never be here. It would take two seasons to get to a point where you can effectively challenge for a championship, at least IMO but the real point is that it won't happen.

 

[Sydla]

No. Changes to your starters, regardless of if they are on your roster or not are significant.

To me, the more significant point is this pie in the sky dream that you are going to get Payton, and now I guess it's Harbaugh, to come here and coach. Why would they ever do that?

Explain how that happens and then maybe we can have a serious discussion about a possible change.

As I said, a bizarre method of arguing.

Where did I state that we are going to get Payton or Harbaugh?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Bruce Ariens doesn't have complete control. Hrabaugh didn't have complete control in San Fran (which led to his eventual leaving). Kelly didn't have complete control when he started in Philly.

So no, the Cowboys don't necessarily have to hire a guy that is going to demand complete control.

How many Super Bowls has Ariens or Harbaugh or Kelly even won? I mean, that's the point right? Garrett, with Tony would be enjoying a winning season right now. Bring in any of those guys here in Dallas and not only will they not last, they will not bring a championship IMO.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

As I said, a bizarre method of arguing.

Where did I state that we are going to get Payton or Harbaugh?

See, that was not so hard at all. We are in agreement, no change is coming. It's nice to finally be on the same page. Thank you.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But the thing is that this is the rant zone right? Thus this is where we bring in our rants about Garrett or Jerry and the Cowboys organization as a whole. Otherwise if they want the truth - they can call it the truthzone.

I don't think this started in the Rant Zone. I think it started on the main forum and was moved here. Having said this, you are right. It is now in the Rant Zone and it is entirely appropriate to post things, such as this in this forum.

Really good point, outside of the truth comment. One persons truth is another persons rant often times. It is what it is.

 

[Sydla]

How many Super Bowls has Ariens or Harbaugh or Kelly even won? I mean, that's the point right? Garrett, with Tony would be enjoying a winning season right now. Bring in any of those guys here in Dallas and not only will they not last, they will not bring a championship IMO.

None but I am just refuting your point that bringing in a new coach means taking a step back. It doesn't. You can keep putting your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalalalalalala" all you want but there have been coaches that have stepped into FAR WORSE situations than what we would have heading into 2016 and actually made the team much better right from the opening game.

And in the end, Garrett isn't bringing this team to a championship anyway, so I'd rather make a change. It's like choosing between a lottery ticket that you know wasn't a winner or the lottery ticket that hasn't been announced yet. That could be a bust too but at least it gives you a chance at a winner.

 

[Sydla]

See, that was not so hard at all. We are in agreement, no change is coming. It's nice to finally be on the same page. Thank you.

I can't stop laughing.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

None but I am just refuting your point that bringing in a new coach means taking a step back. It doesn't. You can keep putting your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalalalalalala" all you want but there have been coaches that have stepped into FAR WORSE situations than what we would have heading into 2016 and actually made the team much better right from the opening game.

And in the end, Garrett isn't bringing this team to a championship anyway, so I'd rather make a change. It's like choosing between a lottery ticket that you know wasn't a winner or the lottery ticket that hasn't been announced yet. That could be a bust too but at least it gives you a chance at a winner.

I never said it was a step backwards. I said it would cost us two more years of Romo's career. I think that's true. The rest of this, you are filling in on your own. you are doing this to try and create a more defensible position but it won't be because at the end of the day, you avoid the central issue. None of the guys mentioned are coming here. Jerry isn't firing Garrett and the whole discussion around that is nothing other then wishful thinking.

In the end, you can't defend that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I can't stop laughing.

Laughter is good for you. As opposed to the discussions we were having here, over the last few hours, there is significant study that suggest laughter has many, many positive effects on a person.

 

[ConstantReboot]

Not true. My post are that it will never happen. He won't have immediate success here because he will never be here. It would take two seasons to get to a point where you can effectively challenge for a championship, at least IMO but the real point is that it won't happen.

We can agree to disagree. A change in coaching can create change that happens immediately. Look what Parcells did with this first year. He took a scrub in Quincy Carter and took the team into the playoffs.

This team is a playoff team minus one probowl runningback. The pieces are there on defense to make a run at the playoffs.

The problem is coaching. They have a losing mentality. Thus the reason why were losing. They forgot how to win.

Bringing in a coach that is all about winning will remove some of the PR issues plaguing this team. Someone how has balls to tell Dez to shutup or tell the media were handling Hardy in house.

Garrett is too nice of a guy. But he has no clue on how to coach. Now that Jerry has surrounded him with a capable staff he still doesn't know how to coach.

Its time to let him go. I would prefer Payton. But I know that we will still be stuck with Garrett. If we stick with Garrett - and wanting a different result. That is nothing more than insanity. As whats been quoted before.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

We can agree to disagree. A change in coaching can create change that happens immediately. Look what Parcells did with this first year. He took a scrub in Quincy Carter and took the team into the playoffs.

This team is a playoff team minus one probowl runningback. The pieces are there on defense to make a run at the playoffs.

The problem is coaching. They have a losing mentality. Thus the reason why were losing. They forgot how to win.

Bringing in a coach that is all about winning will remove some of the PR issues plaguing this team. Someone how has balls to tell Dez to shutup or tell the media were handling Hardy in house.

Garrett is too nice of a guy. But he has no clue on how to coach. Now that Jerry has surrounded him with a capable staff he still doesn't know how to coach.

Its time to let him go. I would prefer Payton. But I know that we will still be stuck with Garrett. If we stick with Garrett - and wanting a different result. That is nothing more than insanity. As whats been quoted before.

If you could get a Parcells, yeah. But there are only a couple of guys out there who are even in the discussion with Parcells and none of them are coming to Dallas. So that's really not anything that I think we should be hanging our hat on. If you want to have a discussion on who you might be able to bring in, then you have to discuss options that are realistic IMO. None of those options are the quality of a Parcells.

But I'm OK with agreeing to disagree. That's probably the best way to resolve this.

 

[daveferr33]

Coaching changes mean starting over. Starting over means that you probably waste another two seasons of Tony's career.

Garrett isn't going anywhere people. Move on.

I don't think that is necessarily true in today's NFL.

I know its an early sample size, but Dan Quinn seems to be doing pretty good in Atlanta. Mike Zimmer is in his second year, and has that team in first place.

Now, I agree Garrett isn't going anywhere.

 

[ConstantReboot]

If you could get a Parcells, yeah. But there are only a couple of guys out there who are even in the discussion with Parcells and none of them are coming to Dallas. So that's really not anything that I think we should be hanging our hat on. If you want to have a discussion on who you might be able to bring in, then you have to discuss options that are realistic IMO. None of those options are the quality of a Parcells.

But I'm OK with agreeing to disagree. That's probably the best way to resolve this.

Well it doesn't even have to be Parcells. Heck it can be a young dynamic playcaller that knows how to use his weapons and to draw up a scheme that will utilize the team's strength. There a few unknowns that I believe can make this offense great like it used to be. Payton of course is on top of my list. Change will be immediate and almost instantly. None of this running Bryant around as a decoy.

There are a few others that I have in mind. But it won't happen unless Garrett gets fired. I don't think he will. So that insanity will have to continue.

 

[daveferr33]

For one, of course a change at the head coach level would require changes in assistants. No one has ever denied that. Of course with a new head coach comes a new staff. Not sure why you are arguing that point. Everyone who wants a coaching change now knows that and frankly probably wants an entire new staff. So this is a bizarre point for you to make.

And on your second point, you are not right

For example, the starters on offense that were carryovers from 2010 in 2011 were:

QB - Smith
RB - Gore
FB - Norris
WR - Crabtree
WR - Morgan
OT - Staley
OG - Iupati
OG - Rachal
OT - Davis
TE - Davis

The only starter that was changed from the 2010 team was Davis Baas, who was the starting C in 2010.

Good post.

Wasn't the mantra around here was that the 49ers were stacked when Harbaugh as opposed to Garrett who had to start over from scratch and that's why Harbaugh was winning early?

 

[Cmac]

Coaching changes mean starting over. Starting over means that you probably waste another two seasons of Tony's career.

Garrett isn't going anywhere people. Move on.

Not so sure about that...ask Gruden....his Super Bowl has Tony Dungy fingerprints all over it.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Not so sure about that...ask Gruden....his Super Bowl has Tony Dungy fingerprints all over it.

Yeah. You can always find an exception and that's probably a good case in point but do you want to bet on something like that happening in Dallas. Been playing Super Bowls for almost 50 years now. How many examples of a situation like Gruden and Tampa Bay in those 50 years? It could happen but the chances are unlikely IMO.

I guess we'll see.

 

[cml750]

We can agree to disagree. A change in coaching can create change that happens immediately. Look what Parcells did with this first year. He took a scrub in Quincy Carter and took the team into the playoffs.

This team is a playoff team minus one probowl runningback. The pieces are there on defense to make a run at the playoffs.

The problem is coaching. They have a losing mentality. Thus the reason why were losing. They forgot how to win.

Bringing in a coach that is all about winning will remove some of the PR issues plaguing this team. Someone how has balls to tell Dez to shutup or tell the media were handling Hardy in house.

Garrett is too nice of a guy. But he has no clue on how to coach. Now that Jerry has surrounded him with a capable staff he still doesn't know how to coach.

Its time to let him go. I would prefer Payton. But I know that we will still be stuck with Garrett. If we stick with Garrett - and wanting a different result. That is nothing more than insanity. As whats been quoted before.

Excellent post.

 

[dallasdave]

Yup, Andy Reid took a 2-14 Chiefs team and went 11-5 his first year also.

Great point !!!!

 

[cajuncocoa]

Help me understand why Garrett survives this season. If Payton is available/former Superbowl coach with history of coaching Romo, why not? More proven coaching resume than the clapper... Serious question.

After having complete control under Tom Benson, maybe you will tell me why Payton would want to have Jerry Jones pulling his strings here, making him look like a fool?