PFT: King throws water on the Scouting Combine

[WoodysGirl]

Posted by Mike Florio on February 22, 2010 9:53 AM ET


We respect the opinions of tenured NFL writers. We respect them even more when they mesh with our own.

Last week, we pointed out the pointlessness of the annual "Underwear Olympics," which like the real Olympics does not yet include football among the events: "As we've heard time and again over the years, a football player needs to be able to run 40 yards in a straight line only on one of two occasions -- when something very good has happened, and when something very bad has happened."

Peter King of SI.com echoes the point in his Monday Morning Quarterback column, via an explanation from an unnamed team "architect" (he should have assumed the name "Art Vandelay") who said that his draft board for 2010 is "90 percent set."

"You know why it's 90 percent set now?" the source told King. "Because guys go to the Scouting Combine and they change their grade on a player based on things that have nothing to do with playing football. I'm convinced if you took the stopwatches away from a lot of these guys, most of 'em would not be able to tell you whether they liked a player or not.

"These guys go out and watch players all fall, then we all watch the tape of all these guys, and we see what kind of football players they are. That's scouting. Who plays good football in pads? That's scouting. Now we need the combine for the medical evaluations and the personal baggage stuff. But don't come in after the combine and tell me you want to change some guy and move him way up because he ran faster than you thought he would. That's where you get in trouble, and that's why our draft board is pretty well set.''

That doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to the Scouting Combine. After all, and as the original Art Vandelay once said regarding the "show about nothing," it's on TV.

But it's important to keep it in perspective. Unless and until the Scouting Combine includes games between incoming NFL players and current NFL players, nothing that happens this week will provide keen insight into whether men who were great college players will be good pro football players.

 

[Big Dakota]

I agree with who ever that was that was quoted.

 

[Hostile]

King is a moron sometimes. Usually when his hands are moving over a keyboard. Not only do the Combines matter because it gives teams access to these guys to learn their character it also lets you observe who the teams around you in the Draft are watching.

I guess Pro Days don't matter either.

 

[dallasfaniac]

I don't think the combine is as useless as this article makes out. Sure, you don't want to base your analysis solely on it, but the combine is a usefull tool to compare players against each other at a common platform. I just wish they'd at least wear pads for the drills.

 

[tomson75]

Character evals? Agility tests? Drug tests? Mental capacity tests?

Is King under the impression the the only event during the combine is the 40 yard dash?

I'm not a proponent of taking workout warriors...in fact, I hate them.

...but the NFL combine is FAR from useless.

 

[jrcowboys]

Guy:

What he says has a lot of truth, but I still think there are things to be learned about the football capabilities of a player. The elite football players usually have elite physical capabilites that identify why they are so good.

I looked at the CB for the jets (Revis?) and his combine tests indicated he was going to be a special player. Jenkins (our CB) also tested well. If you look at SS and three cone times they give you an indication of quickness and agility and VJ tells you something about explosiviness. Another example, Ware tested out very well.

Of course you can have all the ability in the world and still not be a good football player, but these tests can separate the merely good players from those with elite capabilities.

Bottom line: The combine is a usefull tool, but merely a tool.

Thoughts?

JR

 

[Doomsday101]

I have always felt that the combines played a part. I still think what you see from the player during his career is what you go by more than anything else but the combines I think gives you a closer view of the individual. I think when talking mid round picks the combines comes in very handy

 

[DFWJC]

The irony is that King is using a simplistic, narrow approach to criticizing something that he claims makes people give narrow and simplistic evaluations. Look in the mirror buddy.

The combine is by no means the have all, bee all of evalaution tools. But it certainly is valuable...especially when you are looking at some lower profile players lined up with guys from the SEC, etc. Conference USA guys likes Chris Johnson, Matt Forte, D Williams, etc can really stand out. Even some lesser exposed players from teams in the "BCS" conferences (see Mike Jenkins of USF and Eddie Royal of VaTech) can show a little extra.

 

[Hostile]

Character evals? Agility tests? Drug tests? Mental capacity tests?

Is King under the impression the the only event during the combine is the 40 yard dash?

I'm not a proponent of taking workout warriors...in fact, I hate them.

...but the NFL combine is FAR from useless.

Makes me wonder who the guy was he quoted. I have a feeling that team does not win much or the 90% is exaggeration.

 

[dallasfaniac]

Unless and until the Scouting Combine includes games between incoming NFL players and current NFL players, blah, blah....

I could see the NFL having it's own roster comprised of veterans for drills (free agent of at least a year), but a game would be pointless because few draftees would sign up. Drills would provide a platform for veterans to audition for teams again and a measuring stick for incoming rookies. I'd like to see how a rookie WR gets off a jam from a NFL caliber DB rather than a cushion from a college DB merely trying not to get burned deep.

 

[jobberone]

He said it was useful for personal evaluation and interviewing. He has a point. It is overused. If it's used as another metric then ok.

 

[21Savage]

Without the combine, Ware would've been a low first rounder or 2nd rounder. After the combine, he was a top 15 pick. After the facts, he probably should've been number 1.

Just saying.

 

[jterrell]

I am a draftnik and all we get is the senior bowl and combine so naturally I love it.

It fills a very dead football time.

All that said, more teams make mistakes drafting workout wonders than everything else combined--granted you have to remove character issues as that is by far number 1 with a bullet--.

I don't think having a board 90% set before the combine is shocking at all. It's actually far LESS shocking then some nitwit changing his mind by 5 rounds on a guy because of his 40. Every NFL team relies FAR more on game tape than on the combine.

At the end of the day you are drafting a guy to play football and whether or not he can do that is what matters most.

 

[jterrell]

Without the combine, Ware would've been a low first rounder or 2nd rounder. After the combine, he was a top 15 pick. After the facts, he probably should've been number 1.

Just saying.

What you are just saying ... is, well, nothing.

That's plain and simple opinion.

Ware was mightily impressive on tape and there are zero reasons to believe he would have fallen that far. He certainly would not have lasted beyond where we drafted Marcus Spears. 3-4 defenses have been sprouting up everywhere of late so he'd go much higher in a re-draft even if we had no farther information on him.

Ware had an outstanding college career.
from his Bio....
Ware was a two time All-Sun Belt Conference selection. He and Osi Umenyiora of the New York Giants were teammates. As a senior he was the league's Defensive Player of the Year, and was a finalist for the Hendricks Award.

He finished his college career with 27.5 sacks, 195 tackles (57 for losses), 74 quarterback hurries, ten forced fumbles, four fumble recoveries, and one interception. His 27.5 sacks rank second in school history for sacks in a career, and his 57 tackles for losses rank first in school history.

Draftniks confuse Mek Kiper and his ilk with actual NFL teams. Mel's draft boards shifts and shifts to where it is much closer to NFL teams by the time the draft approaches but even then it isn't near where Goose is who does nothing more than call NFL teams and ask.

 

[21Savage]

What you are just saying ... is, well, nothing.

That's plain and simple opinion.

Ware was mightily impressive on tape and there are zero reasons to believe he would have fallen that far. He certainly would not have lasted beyond where we drafted Marcus Spears. 3-4 defenses have been sprouting up everywhere of late so he'd go much higher in a re-draft even if we had no farther information on him.

Ware had an outstanding college career.
from his Bio....
Ware was a two time All-Sun Belt Conference selection. He and Osi Umenyiora of the New York Giants were teammates. As a senior he was the league's Defensive Player of the Year, and was a finalist for the Hendricks Award.

He finished his college career with 27.5 sacks, 195 tackles (57 for losses), 74 quarterback hurries, ten forced fumbles, four fumble recoveries, and one interception. His 27.5 sacks rank second in school history for sacks in a career, and his 57 tackles for losses rank first in school history.

Draftniks confuse Mek Kiper and his ilk with actual NFL teams. Mel's draft boards shifts and shifts to where it is much closer to NFL teams by the time the draft approaches but even then it isn't near where Goose is who does nothing more than call NFL teams and ask.

All what you just said is useless.

Troy is still a small school and there were questions about his competition level. He would've gone at least 10 draft spots below where he actually went, without his predraft (and combine) workouts. I don't think there's really much arguing that.

In this case, his workouts boosted his stock and rightfully so.

 

[NextGenBoys]

King is a moron sometimes. Usually when his hands are moving over a keyboard. Not only do the Combines matter because it gives teams access to these guys to learn their character it also lets you observe who the teams around you in the Draft are watching.

I guess Pro Days don't matter either.

I dont think he's saying they dont matter, I think he's saying its silly when teams drastically alter their board just because of the combine, and NOT the weeks/months of film scouting they've done.

And I agree.

 

[jterrell]

All what you just said is useless.

Troy is still a small school and there were questions about his competition level. He would've gone at least 10 draft spots below where he actually went, without his predraft (and combine) workouts. I don't think there's really much arguing that.

In this case, his workouts boosted his stock and rightfully so.

You are clueless and talking about stuff you clearly have no idea about.

Ware impressed in college being named to the Hendricks watch list. He shined against FSU in a game against top level competition. Like every player there was some schmo knocking him or offering negatives. That had nothing to do with real NFL scouts thoughts on him.

He shined again in the Senior Bowl. And proved he could play OLB.... That was what cemented him in round 1.

He was not reliant on the combine at all.

Just because some average joe or wanna be scout didn't know of him doesn't mean real scouts didn't. He played OLB for the first time at the Senior Bowl and looked quite good. Any team wanting a 3-4 OLB was going to value him highly.

The bottom line is Demarcus Ware proved ON THE FIELD he could play football and the underwear Olympics just validated his athleticism as seen ON TAPE.

 

[VACowboy]

I think the combine definitely has a role in player evaluation. If you find a guy with impressive combine metrics as well as college production, you probably have a good player. The problems occur when scouts overvalue workout numbers and undervalue what prospects have done on the field.

 

[dallasfaniac]

All what you just said is useless.

Troy is still a small school and there were questions about his competition level. He would've gone at least 10 draft spots below where he actually went, without his predraft (and combine) workouts. I don't think there's really much arguing that.

In this case, his workouts boosted his stock and rightfully so.

I mentioned this exact scenario in a "mock drafts are stupid" thread. People forget how low he was projected by many of these draft sites in November/December. However, the draft sites player projections can vary greatly to how NFL scouts project players, so we don't know how the combine invite affected his draft status.

 

[silver]

The positives about the combine is that it's used to compare players on the same track, the same scale and same drills. All that stuff about somebody scorching a forty on a fast track or a wind aided day is out the window at the combine.