PFW annual player rankings and predictions.

[HanfordDixon]

Of course a redstink fan ( and it is clear that for all his protests Hanford is one) would be trying to downgrade any Cowboy player he can.

yeah because anybody who doesn't sniff the jock of every Dallas Cowboys can't possibly be a fan right? I've probably been a Dallas fan longer than you've been alive my friend.

TO is at worst a top 10 WR. Johnson, Williams, Driver and Evans are NOT better then TO. They might have had one or so better years, but as WRs go look around and ask coaches (leaving out the off field issues) if you had to go into a big game now which of those players would you choose over a HEALTHY (hanford keeps convienently forgetting his injury) TO for a big game.

I'm not forgetting his injury. In fact, if you took the time to understand how PFW ranks players, you would know that injury history is part of their criteria. As I said, I would have TO higher than Driver, but it's a minor point. Would you trdae TO for Andre Johnson, Evans or Williams? I would do that in a heartbeat.

The ranking values a player's injury history, age and attitude as much as performance. TO only scores well in one of these four categories. Why is that so hard to understand?

Vick has had less great games in 6 years then Romo had last season.

This is just a flat-out stupid statement. Romo shouldn't even be expected to have as many great games as a guy who's played six years in the league. Vick has been to two Pro Bowls, led his team to the championship game, set a record for rushin yards by a QB and been one of the most exciting players in the league for six years.

Ignore all that evidence if you want, but it's just the facts. I am happy Tony is ranked even with Vick after just 10 games.

Grammatica has shown himself when healthy (oncd again something the redstink deliberately does not mention) to be a top 10 kicker. He makes pressure kicks- which is even more important then percentage.

You are a ridiculous homer. Keep crying about injuries. I guess Grammatica wasn't dumped by three teams. I guess he wasn't sitting at home last year despite a league wide shortage of quality kicking. I guess he didn't attempt just 8 FGs and make 6. i guess Dallas didn't draft a kicker to take Grammatica's roster spot.

I guess I made all those facts up.

Dallas was near the top of the league in KR; top of the league in Punting; and their coverage teams were better then C as well. So all together they clearly were much above a C rating.

First of all it was a C+ ranking and Dallas' major problems with kicking over the past 2-3 years are well-known. They have had all kinds of problems in the kicking game and lost several games because of it and yet you think they deserve a high ranking.

That's pure homer talk. They got the ranking they deserve.

 

[Stash]

Javon Walker's tremendous over-ranking tells you all you need to know.

Less catches, less yards, a lot less TD's and he's somehow ranked at #7 - 6 spots above Owens.

You're not looking at the entire picture. I's really very simple. PFW has very clear criteria for ranking players and TO fell at No. 13 by that system. If you don't sgree with the system used, that's fine, but it's a very fair system. The best out there IMO.

Walker is 28 years old -- in his prime. He's a 6-3, 209-pound WR who had 89 catches for 1382 yards and 12 TDs in 2004. He had 67-1080-8 last year and should be back to full strength at the prime of his career.

He averages nearly 16 yards a catch and is one of the very best big-play WRs in the game. In short, he's in his prime (TO is in decline), averages 15.5 a catch (TO is at 13.5) and isn't a distraction to the team.

I wouls trade TO for Walker in a heartbeat.

Who cares what you would do?

Good thing for all of us in that you're not in charge.

I guess only Walker gets a 'pass' on the injury thing, right?

That example only works when it seems to support your weak 'case'.

Let me get it straight then:

The guy 'in his prime' was out-performed in all areas by the guy 'in his decline'?

Is that your point here?

Yeah, that's what I thought - more nonsense.

:shoot5:

 

[HanfordDixon]

Who cares what you would do?

Good thing for all of us in that you're not in charge.

I think the point of the rankings is to get as close as possible to being able to say you would trade the player for anybody above him and not for anybody below him. In TO's case, I would trade him for Johnson, Williams or Walker (not for Driver), but not for Chambers or S. Moss -- the guys directly below him.

I guess only Walker gets a 'pass' on the injury thing, right?

Walker has had one major injury and he's 28. The thinking here is he'll be fine for the next several years. TO has had continuous problems with his leg, groin and hand over the past four years. And he's 33. Injuries are likely to be a big concern for the remainder of his career.

That example only works when it seems to support your weak 'case'.

It's not "my case." It's PFW and they're the best for a reason. What do you think? That they sit in their offices just concocting ways to downgrade Dallas players???

No. And you can bet there are homer fans from all 32 teams having this same discussion because everybody thinks their favorite players got the shaft. Instead of crying about it, why not try to understand how they came to their conclusions?

Let me get it straight then:

The guy 'in his prime' was out-performed in all areas by the guy 'in his decline'?

Is that your point here?

Yeah, that's what I thought - more nonsense.

First off, TO didn't "outperform" Walker in all areas. Walker didn't have the issues with drops and he wasn't a major distraction to team chemistry. Walker is a big play guy who averages significantly more yards per catch.

On the whole, they had very similar seasons.

 

[Stash]

I think the point of the rankings is to get as close as possible to being able to say you would trade the player for anybody above him and not for anybody below him. In TO's case, I would trade him for Johnson, Williams or Walker (not for Driver), but not for Chambers or S. Moss -- the guys directly below him.

And I believe production is the ultimate factor in any rational ranking. Obviously PFW somehow disagrees.

Odd how the age factor somehow doesn't work against Marvin Harrison though.

I guess only Walker gets a 'pass' on the injury thing, right?

Walker has had one major injury and he's 28. The thinking here is he'll be fine for the next several years. TO has had continuous problems with his leg, groin and hand over the past four years. And he's 33. Injuries are likely to be a big concern for the remainder of his career.

Yet Walker had a major knee injury which put him on the shelf for a year while Owens' lesser injuries get magnified? OK.

That example only works when it seems to support your weak 'case'.

[quote+HanfordDixon]It's not "my case." It's PFW and they're the best for a reason. What do you think? That they sit in their offices just concocting ways to downgrade Dallas players???[/quote]

The best? Hardly. Not since Buschbaum died. And as I've said, there are plenty of bad rankings that don't involve Dallas players. Clinton Portis as the 12th ranked RB is a joke as well.

No. And you can bet there are homer fans from all 32 teams having this same discussion because everybody thinks their favorite players got the shaft. Instead of crying about it, why not try to understand how they came to their conclusions?

You mean make excuses for a lousy job? Sorry. Not my thing. You be the excuse-maker.

Let me get it straight then:

The guy 'in his prime' was out-performed in all areas by the guy 'in his decline'?

Is that your point here?

Yeah, that's what I thought - more nonsense.

First off, TO didn't "outperform" Walker in all areas. Walker didn't have the issues with drops and he wasn't a major distraction to team chemistry. Walker is a big play guy who averages significantly more yards per catch.

On the whole, they had very similar seasons.

Sorry, he outperformed him in all areas that make a bit of difference. Yet 'similar seasons' (which is a lousy attempt at a stretch) ranks one guy at #7 and the other at #13.

Keep up the 'good work'.......

 

[HanfordDixon]

And I believe production is the ultimate factor in any rational ranking. Obviously PFW somehow disagrees.

Probably the first intelligent framing of the issue.

Odd how the age factor somehow doesn't work against Marvin Harrison though.

Harrison has perhaps the best hands in the game, is a consumate team player, has missed just 2 games in the last EIGHT YEARS and has shown absolutely no decline whatsoever.

His yards have increased the past three years, he posted the second-best average per catch of his career in 2006 and has eight consecutive seaons of double-digit TDs.

oh yeah, and he won a Super Bowl ring...

It's absurd that you would bring up Marvin Harrison. For the record, TO is by far the highest rated player with the X mark for "in decline." Next is Randy Moss, rated 19th, and also given the X for "in decline."

Yet Walker had a major knee injury which put him on the shelf for a year while Owens' lesser injuries get magnified? OK.

Yes it is OK if you have half a brain. Owens has had several injuries over the past three seasons that have cost him games, practice time and dropped passes. He's 33. Walker had one major injury and he's 28.

The best? Hardly. Not since Buschbaum died. And as I've said, there are plenty of bad rankings that don't involve Dallas players. Clinton Portis as the 12th ranked RB is a joke as well.

Nobody has made a single case for anything out of line with PFW. I'm not even sure whether you think Portis should be higher or lower. Seriously. I'm guessing you think too high.

You mean make excuses for a lousy job? Sorry. Not my thing. You be the excuse-maker.

I won't apologize for having the intelligence to be able to understand what they are doing. When you make claims such as Marvin Harrison should be downgraded, it indcates either a passionate homerism or severe shortsightedness on your part.

Sorry, he outperformed him in all areas that make a bit of difference. Yet 'similar seasons' (which is a lousy attempt at a stretch) ranks one guy at #7 and the other at #13.

Keep up the 'good work'.......

Sorry, but the dropped passes were significant. Owens catches that bomb aganst Washington and it's game over. You seem to want to just ignore that and make excuses. TO is supposed to be a big-play WR and that was a big play and he failed. He dropped two other TDs in the end zone. He dropped a big fourth down pass against the Giants.

Just gloss over it, but these are situations where a big-time player is supposed to produce.

I know it's a waste of time to even get into this point, but you need to realize that stats are just numbers. If all you want to do is rank players by the number of TD catches they had, or the number of catches, just go to ESPN stats and filter it out and that's your ranking.

PFW is trying to attach value to those numbers. And the bottom line, in this case, is TO had a lot of meaningless stats. Like it or not (and I know you won't) he played his poorest in the biggest games -- like two games against Philly. Many of his TDs came in games long decided.

Walker, on the other hand, played his best ball in the biggest games. He caught two TDs in a big 17-7 road win over the Patriots. He caught two more TDs in a big road win over the Steelers. He caught a TD pass in a big late-season road win over the Bengals.

Seven of Walker's eight TDs came in wins.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you that Walker is a better player. I'm just explaining to you how they arrived at their rankings.

 

[burmafrd]

Several people here have shown clear cases for players being over rated or under rated. Sean Taylor is probably one of the easiest ones to spot- but I notice you cut and ran rather then try and defend that one. Missed tackles, TDs given up, etc. He stank it up in every way last year.

 

[Stash]

I pointed out that there were other clear errors, but 'Mr PFW' seems to want to focus on his 'bash Owens' campaign.....

And he still tries to dismiss facts in favor of opinions.

 

[burmafrd]

He has gotten owned pretty good by several people- but just like Fuzzy he keeps blindly fumbling along.

 

[HanfordDixon]

Several people here have shown clear cases for players being over rated or under rated. Sean Taylor is probably one of the easiest ones to spot- but I notice you cut and ran rather then try and defend that one. Missed tackles, TDs given up, etc. He stank it up in every way last year.

I didn't see much of Taylor. I see every Dallas snap. Rating hundred and hundreds of football players, I am sure they will make mistakes.

Given the high profile of Taylor and Williams and the other safeties, and the ridiculous degree of homerism shown here -- forgive me if I have little inclination to give you any credibility.

Absolutely mind-boggling that some people here consider Grammatica a top NFL kicker. Mind-boggling.

 

[HanfordDixon]

I pointed out that there were other clear errors, but 'Mr PFW' seems to want to focus on his 'bash Owens' campaign.....

What "clear errors?" Your idiotic claim that Marvin Harrison should also be judged as "declining????"

hilarious.

And he still tries to dismiss facts in favor of opinions.

What facts? You have posted nothing but easliy torn apart homistic statements.

I have posted so many in-depth facts, it's making your head spin.

All you counter with is "TO is definitely a top 10 WR! Anybody who doesn't think so is stupid!"

That's great. Now run along and let the grown ups talk.

 

[burmafrd]

in case you haven't notice, hanford, you have NO credibility at all. And you are still dodging on taylor. But then since you are a closet skins fan that is not suprising.

 

[Stash]

I pointed out that there were other clear errors, but 'Mr PFW' seems to want to focus on his 'bash Owens' campaign.....

What "clear errors?" Your idiotic claim that Marvin Harrison should also be judged as "declining????"

hilarious.

Keep laughing bud. Ignorance must be bliss. I clearly showed that Owens' numbers were better than Walker's. Not opinion - fact. But then you tried to counter with the age thing. I again pummeled you with the logic that age didn't seem to hurt Marvin Harrison's ranking any.

And he still tries to dismiss facts in favor of opinions.

What facts? You have posted nothing but easliy torn apart homistic statements.

I have posted so many in-depth facts, it's making your head spin.

All you counter with is "TO is definitely a top 10 WR! Anybody who doesn't think so is stupid!"

That's great. Now run along and let the grown ups talk.

Anyone else hear the Twilight Zone theme whenever this guy posts?

I gave numbers - factual numbers. Numbers which clearly show Owens is better than some ranked above him.

You give some lame attempt at some 'formula' which even you can't seem to explain enough to make it resemble rational thought. Great work so far.

Keep diggin' the hole!

 

[HanfordDixon]

in case you haven't notice, hanford, you have NO credibility at all.

yes, I realize some of you ridiculous homers are mad at me. Gee, how will I ever survive?

I have explained in great detail why and how PFW goes about their rankings. Nobody can refute me with anything that resembles an intelligent counterpoint.

Not surprising since the NFL players and coaches weighed in on Terrell Owens last year when they declined to vote him to the Pro Bowl.

And you are still dodging on taylor. But then since you are a closet skins fan that is not suprising.

Maybe if you revealed yourself to be anything but a ridiculous Dallas homer I would award you some credibility on the Taylor issue.

I've been a Dallas fan for 30 years, my friend. Apparently you're so small-minded that you can't accept the fact that not everybody is a foolish homer when it comes to Cowboys players.

 

[HanfordDixon]

Keep laughing bud. Ignorance must be bliss. I clearly showed that Owens' numbers were better than Walker's. Not opinion - fact.

No, you just ignored that Owens led the league in drops. And it's not a fact at all. Different statitics have different value to different people. Many people value Walker much higher average-per-reception. Many people value Walker's fewer drops. Many people value the fact that Walker made big plays in big games when it counted. Owens did not.

I am starting to get the idea that you are either a laughable homer or lack the ability to comprehend an intelligent argument. I am explained to you why Owens is ranked No. 13, why players and coaches didn't vote him to the Pro Bowl -- basically why everybody agrees with me.

You just can't seem to get it.

But then you tried to counter with the age thing. I again pummeled you with the logic that age didn't seem to hurt Marvin Harrison's ranking any.
Anyone else hear the Twilight Zone theme whenever this guy posts?

"pummeled." heh... You showed how ignorant you are by bringing up Harrison -- who is pretty much the exact opposite of Owens on all of the criteria the ranking are based on. But why bother with facts eh?

You are not very smart, are you?

I gave numbers - factual numbers. Numbers which clearly show Owens is better than some ranked above him.

You gave numbers that you don't understand. That is why discussions like this will always be above your head.

It was my hope to teach you something. Apparently you have no interest in learning.

 

[Stash]

Keep laughing bud. Ignorance must be bliss. I clearly showed that Owens' numbers were better than Walker's. Not opinion - fact.

No, you just ignored that Owens led the league in drops. And it's not a fact at all. Different statitics have different value to different people. Many people value Walker much higher average-per-reception. Many people value Walker's fewer drops. Many people value the fact that Walker made big plays in big games when it counted. Owens did not.

As much as you try to 'ignore' that he scored more touchdowns than any other receiver in the league? That much? Amazing how some touchdowns 'count' while others don't.

I am starting to get the idea that you are either a laughable homer or lack the ability to comprehend an intelligent argument. I am explained to you why Owens is ranked No. 13, why players and coaches didn't vote him to the Pro Bowl -- basically why everybody agrees with me.

You just can't seem to get it.

Everyone agrees with you? You mean everyone here who's hammering your assinine hypotheses left and right? The rest of the 'adults' who are talking?

Tell me how different people view touchdowns? Near as I can tell, the team who scores the most points wins, not the team with the most 'yards per catch' - tool......

Tell me exactly how Sean Taylor made the Pro Bowl, since it's such an exact science and all.....



Tell me how many 'drops' the league's other recievers had - just for the heck of it - give me those numbers. Since you rely on those and those numbers alone, you must have the list for everubody right? Post it for me, for arguments' sake, OK?

But then you tried to counter with the age thing. I again pummeled you with the logic that age didn't seem to hurt Marvin Harrison's ranking any.
Anyone else hear the Twilight Zone theme whenever this guy posts?

"pummeled." heh... You showed how ignorant you are by bringing up Harrison -- who is pretty much the exact opposite of Owens on all of the criteria the ranking are based on. But why bother with facts eh?

You are not very smart, are you?

Smart enough to pummel your clueless behind. I just used this thing called reality to point out was a clueless hypocrite you are. You own 'criteria' blew up in your face.

:spanking:

What would those 'criteria' be? Who's the nicer guy? Yeah - Harrison wins then. Funny how Owens' not being a nice guy didn't hurt him until he showed up in Dallas. Before that, he was a Top 3 guy.

I gave numbers - factual numbers. Numbers which clearly show Owens is better than some ranked above him.

You gave numbers that you don't understand. That is why discussions like this will always be above your head.

It was my hope to teach you something. Apparently you have no interest in learning.

Please.

Clueless clowns like you deserve every logic beatdown they get.

wned:

Your next rational thought will be the first.

Best of luck in BizarroWorld!

 

[HanfordDixon]

As much as you try to 'ignore' that he scored more touchdowns than any other receiver in the league? That much? Amazing how some touchdowns 'count' while others don't.

Like I said, if you just want to rank a WR, for example, based solely on passes caught or TDs, go get that list and make it your ranking. I think intelligent people can see past that and recognize that not all Touchdowns are created equal.

TO scored a lot of junk garbage TDs in meaningless moments. That is a fact. I am not ignoring his lead in TDs. But the FACT is somebody like Javon Walker scored more meaningful TDs than Owens.

Everyone agrees with you? You mean everyone here who's hammering your assinine hypotheses left and right? The rest of the 'adults' who are talking?

Nobody has refuted my points with any intelligence yet. Fact is I understand how TO's season is viewed not only by PFW, but by the players and coaches who vote on the Pro Bowl.

Tell me how different people view touchdowns? Near as I can tell, the team who scores the most points wins, not the team with the most 'yards per catch' - tool......

Are you nine years old?

Tell me how many 'drops' the league's other recievers had - just for the heck of it - give me those numbers. Since you rely on those and those numbers alone, you must have the list for everubody right? Post it for me, for arguments' sake, OK?

I don't rely on those numbers and those numbers alone. I am explaining to you the criteria PFW used to accurately arrive at TO's ranking. He did lead the league in TDs recepts. That is impressive.

It was offset by his lack of bigtime plays in big games, his league-leading drop totals. The fact that many drops came in the end zone or at key moments. The fact that TO is in decline. He has injury concerns.

Those add up to a lot of negatives that detract from his ranking.

Once again, a 13th ranking out of 64 starting WRs isn't anything to sneeze at. He was accuratetly rated by this system.

Smart enough to pummel your clueless behind. I just used this thing called reality to point out was a clueless hypocrite you are. You own 'criteria' blew up in your face.

Really? What criteria is that, genius? Seriously, are you nine years old?

What would those 'criteria' be? Who's the nicer guy? Yeah - Harrison wins then. Funny how Owens' not being a nice guy didn't hurt him until he showed up in Dallas. Before that, he was a Top 3 guy.

Dude, you are flat-out a dummy.

 

[Stash]

Dude, you are flat-out a dummy.

Coming from the forum's current 'punching bag', I'll take that as a compliment.

Thanks

:loser:

 

[PBJTime]

Just a few tidbits...

A Pro Bowl selection is not necessarily a direct reflection of talent. Lack of being selected for one does not not exclude a player from being one of the best in the game. It's a popularity contest, plain and simple. TO's lack of being in one is not a good argument for this discussion.

Also, I don't recall hearing too much of the "dropped passes stat" until last year. Can you name who led the league the year before last in dropped passes?

 

[superpunk]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

 

[HanfordDixon]

A Pro Bowl selection is not necessarily a direct reflection of talent. Lack of being selected for one does not not exclude a player from being one of the best in the game. It's a popularity contest, plain and simple. TO's lack of being in one is not a good argument for this discussion.

I understand the point that the system certainly results in seemingly undeserved players going to the Pro Bowl -- Alstot for one. That poor reputation is somewhat deserved -- much like PFW's terrific rep is deserved.

However, it is not "plain and simple" a popularity contest. In the context you speak of, it is an unknown player in a small market that would be hurt in the one-third fan voting. This is not the case with TO. If anything he was helped in the one-third fan voting. One can only assume the the majority of players and coaches take their Pro Bowl votes seriously with their respective one-third votes. They did not feel TO was a Pro Bowler.