News: Quarterback trap

[visionary]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Great article talking about the QB trap that the Vikings fell into last off season. Sounds a heck of a lot like the situation we are headed towards with Dak.

The Vikings flew straight into the pitcher plant with Cousins by paying a premium for a journeyman whose only hope for an MVP season comes from being surrounded by a superteam.

Just because the market says $30 million for your QB who is hitting Free agency at the right time doesn't mean he is Brees, Wilson, Rodgers, Luck.
Dak is an average starter. You can win with him, he won't kill you with a 5 turnover game. I never expect him to carry this team because I know what to expect. He has a solid floor and a low celing. Not someone I want to pay 30 million a year for.
All the Dak lovers can spin doctor this all day, but if you are actually honest with yourself. Dak is not an elite QB, and I am not insulting him. He is what he is. A good QB who should be paid fairly. To me that number is what Foles is getting in Jacksonville.

No one is gubjng Dak 30 mill/y on the open market
Jerry is stupidly negotiating against himself as usual and his moron son follows

 

[Irvin88_4life]

Aikman literally was playing with hot garbage. 1-15 to 7-9 to 11-5.

Perhaps you should go look who was on the team his first 3 years

 

[jazzcat22]

He injuried his neck in 1996 blocking a guy against the Bears in a Monday Night Game. He didn't miss time but it was an injury that hampered him the rest of the season.

As for paying Dak 30+ million his intangibles not make make up for his lack of tangibles. Nor the fact people get blinded by the Thanksgiving game against Washington and the second egals game in regard to Cooper and his production but fail to look at everything else. We are all fans so it's easy to get caught up in the moment and and go crazy. If Alex Smith can get traded twice and he is the Dak equivenlent holding onto dak's not the best route.

Yes I remembered he injured his neck, and did not miss time. But I don’t think it bothered him the rest of the year IMO.
I think it did for a game or two, but that was about it.

As for Dak and his contract and his on the field play, I try to stay away from. As it is a mute point in most cases to get into a debate over it.
Unless their are stats that prove it one way or another, but even many fans still disregard them in trying to make their point.

 

[InTheZone]

"This is not hyperbole"

While your entire statement is hyperbole. Woof. This is bad.

"Dak needs 1st rounders or hall of Fame talent at every position on offense to produce", and so since Dak has produced already and has never been surrounded purely by HOFers or 1st rounder how stupid does that make your comment?

Yes Ryan has had tools around him since day 1, and starting Day 1 Ryan wasn't any good until his 5th season in the league. And you want to run off a player that was light years better than Ryan at this point in their careers.

And claiming QBs elevate their WRs based on the WRs draft status..... never mind not going to go there lmao..

In 2017 Adam's played the first 6 games of the season with Rodgers. Adam's had 56.5 yards per game. The next 7 games Adams played without Rodgers and averaged 70 yards per game. How exactly did Rodgers elevate Adam's?

Lost his HOF LT and was replaced by one of the worst LT performances the league has ever seen? Doesnt get a pass by anyone, especially not you. He gets all the blame.
Didnt have his All-pro center all of last year. Did he get a pass? No he didnt need one. He still produced.

-21 teams scored more
-25 teams had a higher TD percentage in the redzone
-16 QBs had a better QBR
-13 QBs had a higher passer rating
-9 QBs had a higher average time to throw (the higher the number the better your efficiency should be)
-No other player had more fumbles than Dak (see previous stat, this number should be a lot lower)
-Only one player took more sacks (see two lines above, this number should be on the opposite end of the spectrum)
-no other team had the best rb
-no other team have the 3 best OL at their respective positions

It's ok that he's a favorite player for fans, but it's borderline crazy to keep defending him as a top QB. And it would be unwise to never consider bringing in other players or letting there be a competition to get better at this position, just like we do all other positions.

 

[dckid]

He injuried his neck in 1996 blocking a guy against the Bears in a Monday Night Game. He didn't miss time but it was an injury that hampered him the rest of the season.

As for paying Dak 30+ million his intangibles not make make up for his lack of tangibles. Nor the fact people get blinded by the Thanksgiving game against Washington and the second egals game in regard to Cooper and his production but fail to look at everything else. We are all fans so it's easy to get caught up in the moment and and go crazy. If Alex Smith can get traded twice and he is the Dak equivenlent holding onto dak's not the best route.

Very good points. Dak's best care scenario is Alex Smith ( my opinion, I have no facts to corroborate my story).
You also stir up another interesting conversation. How realistic was the teams 3-5 start and then ending up 10-6. I think we got a few lucky breaks and yes I know that is football.
Unless Kitna & Moore are world beaters, i cant see this team being anything better 9-7. Fundamentally our biggest problem was playcalling and coaching. Predictable offense, no speed up the seams.
Are we forgetting all the criticism Dak got on not being able to complete a deep pass? How about all the film breakdown's that guy did on youtube on how Dak couldnt read a defense.
I fundamentally think ( my opinion again) hitching our wagon to Dak as a top 5 paid QB is a mistake.
I cant take the punishment from all the posters who are going to call me crazy. I wish this didnt have to be such a binary discussion. Just because I don't think Dak is a top 5 level QB means we should cut him. I just don't fully buy into him being elite.

 

[dckid]

-21 teams scored more
-25 teams had a higher TD percentage in the redzone
-16 QBs had a better QBR
-13 QBs had a higher passer rating
-9 QBs had a higher average time to throw (the higher the number the better your efficiency should be)
-No other player had more fumbles than Dak (see previous stat, this number should be a lot lower)
-Only one player took more sacks (see two lines above, this number should be on the opposite end of the spectrum)
-no other team had the best rb
-no other team have the 3 best OL at their respective positions

It's ok that he's a favorite player for fans, but it's borderline crazy to keep defending him as a top QB. And it would be unwise to never consider bringing in other players or letting there be a competition to get better at this position, just like we do all other positions.

Thank you!

 

[northerncowboynation]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Great article talking about the QB trap that the Vikings fell into last off season. Sounds a heck of a lot like the situation we are headed towards with Dak.

The Vikings flew straight into the pitcher plant with Cousins by paying a premium for a journeyman whose only hope for an MVP season comes from being surrounded by a superteam.

Just because the market says $30 million for your QB who is hitting Free agency at the right time doesn't mean he is Brees, Wilson, Rodgers, Luck.
Dak is an average starter. You can win with him, he won't kill you with a 5 turnover game. I never expect him to carry this team because I know what to expect. He has a solid floor and a low celing. Not someone I want to pay 30 million a year for.
All the Dak lovers can spin doctor this all day, but if you are actually honest with yourself. Dak is not an elite QB, and I am not insulting him. He is what he is. A good QB who should be paid fairly. To me that number is what Foles is getting in Jacksonville.

Thinly veiled attempt to draw folks in to a "Dak isn't worthy" thread. It's been done to death. Pass on opinion

 

[dckid]

Perhaps you should go look who was on the team his first 3 years

Sorry I meant the first year. Of course the talent got built up to get us to the SB in year 4. Those teams were my life!!!
I still watch the best Cowboys football on Youtube.

 

[northerncowboynation]

Awesome! I love that movie!

LOL, if you've seen Ground Hog day once, you've watched it over and over again in one sitting

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

-21 teams scored more
-25 teams had a higher TD percentage in the redzone
-16 QBs had a better QBR
-13 QBs had a higher passer rating
-9 QBs had a higher average time to throw (the higher the number the better your efficiency should be)
-No other player had more fumbles than Dak (see previous stat, this number should be a lot lower)
-Only one player took more sacks (see two lines above, this number should be on the opposite end of the spectrum)
-no other team had the best rb
-no other team have the 3 best OL at their respective positions

It's ok that he's a favorite player for fans, but it's borderline crazy to keep defending him as a top QB. And it would be unwise to never consider bringing in other players or letting there be a competition to get better at this position, just like we do all other positions.

Why the hell did you quote my comment with this nonsense?
It's not borderline, it's definitely crazy to have no comprehension skills at this point.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

What's your basis for thinking the franchise tag for next year will be $25M?

The top 5 CAP hits for 2020 as of now before even more crazy contracts are $33.5, $33.5, $32.6, $31.5, and $31.

That would put the franchise tag next year(again before it goes higher by more contracts) at $32.6M. You want Dak's CAP hit to be $32.6M next year?

And you're saying resign if he plays well.

So option A) sign resign him now and spread it over the additional rookie contract year. So if he signed for 5/$150 it'd be average CAP hits of $25M and his guaranteed portion being paid in all years.

Or your option B) let him play for low CAP hit this year, tag him at $32.6M, then sign him at the 2021 market value of $36M+ AAV with average cap hits of that $36M. And not eating up ANY of the guaranteed portion the first two years.

@dckid

You must have missed this one.

 

[InTheZone]

Why the hell did you quote my comment with this nonsense?
It's not borderline, it's definitely crazy to have no comprehension skills at this point.

I would just like for an actual argument against those stats, this has nothing to do with my opinion of him.

 

[dckid]

@dckid

You must have missed this one.

Thanks. Lets just go with letting him play out his contract.

 

[Jake]

Yes I remembered he injured his neck, and did not miss time. But I don’t think it bothered him the rest of the year IMO.
I think it did for a game or two, but that was about it.

As for Dak and his contract and his on the field play, I try to stay away from. As it is a mute point in most cases to get into a debate over it.
Unless their are stats that prove it one way or another, but even many fans still disregard them in trying to make their point.

Yeah, I largely avoid stat debates but I'm curious as to what "Plan B" is from the Dak sucks crowd.

It's not like the front office has a track record of routinely finding gems at the QB position. They're more likely to find another Chad Hutchinson or trade up to draft the next Paxton Lynch.

 

[Redball Express]

A thread discussing Dak's value. Hmm, hadn't thought of that.

Aren't you glad we do not get to debate what you get for your work.?

 

[ItzKelz]

Brees: Michael Thomas: MId 2nd round pick
Wilson: Tyler Lockett: Mid 3rd round pick
Rodgers: Devante Adams: Late 2nd round pick
Ryan: Julio Jones: Top pick

Of your examples it appears that Brees, Wilson and Rodgers are actually elevating the players around them. Ryan has had top offensive tools since day 1. Thought experiment over the last 3 years if Dak and Ryan switched spots Ryan probably would have played as well or better than Dak. I very much doubt the opposite is true.

Dak needs 1st rounders and/or hall of fame talent at every position on offense before he can produce. And if he doesn't he gets a pass. This is not hyperbole.

If his hall of famer LT is out? He gets a pass.
If his all pro center is lost? He gets a pass.
If his all pro RB is suspended? He gets a pass.
If he doesn't have a top of the 1st round WR? He gets a pass.
And if everyone is in but he plays poorly...its the coaches? He gets a pass.

This is your king?

Brees 2nd Round pick, Wilson 3rd round pick, Rodgers fell is the first round.....I'll let you think about it.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

I would just like for an actual argument against those stats, this has nothing to do with my opinion of him.

Weird way to start that dialogue then, but here it goes

Dallas doesn't have the best RB in the league either. Even if he did, it would not help Dak's individual stats.
Dak doesn't have three Olineman who are the best in the league at their respective position. This one you should already know, but you don't somehow.


PPG is a team stat, and Dak plays on a team that plays at the 28th slowest pace in football, had the 28th best starting field position, and on a team that had only one defensive touchdown. What actually matters is a team's yards per drive and points per drive, which the Cowboys came in at 16th and 15th respectively.

25th in redzone scoring- Well duh, and again this is a team stat. Who are the redzone weapons? Who was the signal caller in the redzone who currently has no job? And who was the running back that only averaged 2.69 yards inside the 20, 1.5 yards per carry inside the 10, and .33 yards per carry inside the 5?
Dak has some fault too, but man it's pretty damn silly to use that against one individual.

So Dak was 16th in QBR last year, so that brings his three year average to 7th. Having finished 4th and 3rd in the two years before that. Happy?

Okay now passer rating? His average is 11th. Having the 13th best passer rating when you start the season with Beasley, Hurns, Terrence Williams(rookie replaces him), and Geoff Swaim as your starting receivers then you've done a good job.

Only 9 QBs had more time to throw- this is completely made up and not true. Some don't know how to decipher statistics and this is one of those time.

No player had more fumbles- what you forget to mention is three players tied with him. One of those players didnt start until week 9. And three of those "fumbles" for Dak were when he was on the run in open field dropped the ball and picked it back up in stride. Nobody recovered more fumbles in the NFL than Dak.

He took unnecessary sacks. I'm not going to dispute it. He needs to get better in that aspect.

 

[Johnny23]

Very good points. Dak's best care scenario is Alex Smith ( my opinion, I have no facts to corroborate my story).
You also stir up another interesting conversation. How realistic was the teams 3-5 start and then ending up 10-6. I think we got a few lucky breaks and yes I know that is football.
Unless Kitna & Moore are world beaters, i cant see this team being anything better 9-7. Fundamentally our biggest problem was playcalling and coaching. Predictable offense, no speed up the seams.
Are we forgetting all the criticism Dak got on not being able to complete a deep pass? How about all the film breakdown's that guy did on youtube on how Dak couldnt read a defense.
I fundamentally think ( my opinion again) hitching our wagon to Dak as a top 5 paid QB is a mistake.
I cant take the punishment from all the posters who are going to call me crazy. I wish this didnt have to be such a binary discussion. Just because I don't think Dak is a top 5 level QB means we should cut him. I just don't fully buy into him being elite.

I believe we're going to see something similar to what he's been his entire career in Oakland in regards to Cooper. I firmly believe that he is the guy who people rave about Monday to Thursday in practice but it's coulda,shoulda, woulda most Sundays and Mondays. People get tired of that really quick.

I think it's a mistake to hitch our wagon because I believe we caught lightening in a bottle the second half of last season. We got those two mirage games you get from Amari Cooper per year at the right time. I think Dak's the kind of QB that you see win you games because he's good enough. But he's not bad enough see Rick Mirer or Ryan Leaf to we're you can bottom out and get another chance at a franchise guy see Chargers getting Brees. The reason why I bring up Alex Smith is because relatively speaking you're going to be 9-7 to 12-4 with him at QB you're slightly above average and you make the playoffs. But like in KC you're out of it if you're two scores down against contenders or New England. Our defense for its struggles in the Rams game kept it from being 45-7 instead of 22-7 before we got those last two garbage time tds. To where we could make that vain comeback attempt. Alex Smith got hurt and Washington was playing well and he stabilized that team. He doesn't turn the ball over, gets you about 20-25 tds passes,3-5 rushing tds and about 3800 pass yards but no game breaking play most weeks. And when he bottoms out it's a disaster with a whole lot of meh. Usually propped up by an all world runner see prime Frank Gore, recently Kareem Hunt, or a reinvigorated AP. Dak has Zeke. When they lose they aren't usually expressedly the reason the team loses. But they tend to make a bonehead play out of character be it a sack, fumble,or interception that seems out of character because they are so carful with the ball. When in reality they don't want to let it rip because they might turn it over more. See a Chuck Knoblauch or Rick Ankiel style meltdown so they play it safe or close to the vest. I just have seen that from Dak. It was telling to me And Reid still got Mahomes when he had a safe bet in Smith. He still wanted more and took the chance. Who knows what happens in the Super Bowl if Dee Ford doesn't jump offsides.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Thanks. Lets just go with letting him play out his contract.

If you don't want your team to win, then I agree with your tactic.

 

[buybuydandavis]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Great article talking about the QB trap that the Vikings fell into last off season. Sounds a heck of a lot like the situation we are headed towards with Dak.

The Vikings flew straight into the pitcher plant with Cousins by paying a premium for a journeyman whose only hope for an MVP season comes from being surrounded by a superteam.

Just because the market says $30 million for your QB who is hitting Free agency at the right time doesn't mean he is Brees, Wilson, Rodgers, Luck.
Dak is an average starter. You can win with him, he won't kill you with a 5 turnover game. I never expect him to carry this team because I know what to expect. He has a solid floor and a low celing. Not someone I want to pay 30 million a year for.
All the Dak lovers can spin doctor this all day, but if you are actually honest with yourself. Dak is not an elite QB, and I am not insulting him. He is what he is. A good QB who should be paid fairly. To me that number is what Foles is getting in Jacksonville.

Dak's big value was as a running QB on a rookie contract. I'd rather be churning running QBs than signing middle of the pack QBs. We've got the team for it. But not the management. They aren't going for it.