Red Sox sign Crawford... WOW

[ABQCOWBOY]

Fielding Percentage is a junk stat.

According to UZR he was worth -4.7 runs last year. Ahead of only Jason Bartlett for full time SS in the AL. Who has made 31 errors in the last 2 years. If it weren't for Texeira's immense skill at 1B, more people would know how poor Jeter is as a SS.

The problem for Yankee fans is they see that jump throw once every blue moon and it makes them swoon. Any scout or credible statistic will tell you that he isn't a good defensive SS anymore.

You can say he's surehanded. But that's about it.

Hey, don't take my word for it. You can ask any GM in the league or any Manager or what have you. He's far from one of the poorest but it's your story, you tell it.

 

[tko112204]

Hey, don't take my word for it. You can ask any GM in the league or any Manager or what have you. He's far from one of the poorest but it's your story, you tell it.

I don't think that's true.

At all.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't think that's true.

At all.

Like I said, you don't have to take my word.

 

[raichledog]

I think Gardner is probably the superior defensive Center Fielder but obviously Crawford has much better offensive production. The thing here though is that Gardner has only played two full seasons. Look at Gardners numbers year to year and if he continues to improve, his numbers are not going to be far off offensively. You also have to figure that Crawford is going to slow down on the bases with coming up on his 10th season. Gardner is going to continue to improve there and he's already got 47 stolen bases last year. (Swisher but not a No Brainer by any means)


you have got to be kidding me! first of all,they are both LEFT fielders, not center fielders. Carl Crawford is WIDELY REGARDED as the best defensive left fielder in all of baseball. His UZR and runs prevented rating were the best in all of baseball for all outfielders. This is a blowout defensively and offensively it isn't close either. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either blind or completely oblivious.

Granderson was injured most of last season so I don't know that I can agree with you. However, I do believe that Ellsbury will always hit for better average. Granderson will hit more Dingers and is probably a better defensive player. (I'd call this a push)

Ellsbury was injured all season last year too so the injury argument doesn't hold water. The ONLY place that Granderson has an advantage is in his power. Ellsbury is younger - 27 vs 29 -, faster 70 stolen bases in 09, 50 in 08 (Granderson's career best was 26 in 07), hits for a better average .291 vs .268, runs bases better (see steals), and is a game changer offensively on the base paths (ask Joba about the run Ellsbury scored from 2nd on a passed ball or Pettite about the steal of home to win a game in 09). Not even close defensively either as Ellsbury was rated as one of the best center fielders in all of baseball in UZR and runs prevented in 08 and 09 as well.

The big difference here is that Swisher is much younger and is going to continue to improve with more playing time. Yeah, his numbers are helped by playing in NY but so are Drews by playing in Boston. Swisher is a natural lefty and a switch hitter. Drew is going into his 14th season and Swishers numbers are already better. I don't see Drew improving that much at this stage. (Swisher and I don't think it's all that close)

I already conceded that Swisher is the choice here but your argument that he will improve with playing time is bizarre. He has been a starter basically his entire career and is 30. He is at his peak. Drew is a phenominal defensive right fielder while Swisher is average when looking at defensive metrics. One thing to bear in mind, Drew has a career OBP (on base percentage) of .387 while Swisher's OBP stands at .358. That's a big difference.

A-Rod is a 3rd Baseman, Kevin Youklas is a 1st baseman. Where will he play this year? If he's playing 3rd base, I don't think you can say that he's a better fielder. Youklas has never hit 30 HRs or 100 RBIs in his entire career. He (Youkilis) had 115 RBI's in 2008 A-Rod has not failed to hit 30 HR or more and 100 RBIs or more in the past 13 seasons. There is no way you can say say that Youklas is the better player. ( A-Rod)

first of all, Youkilis spent his entire career until the last 3 seasons at 3rd base and only moved to 1st out of necessity. If you go back 2 years and look at his fielding metrics as a 3rd baseman where he played over 100 games he is vastly superior to ARod, and unbelievably close to Adrian Beltre. So sorry, but that argument doesn't hold water. Offensively, while the HR numbers favor ARod, everything else favors Youkilis... and by the way, while you are correct that he has never hit 30 HR's, he has hit 29, 27, and was on pace for 32 last year before a freak injury. .307 versus .270 average OBP of .411 versus .341, Slugging of .564 versus .506.

ARod was a GREAT player, maybe the best in the game, but he is now a very good power hitter, an average 3rd baseman, and not much else. TODAY, Youkilis is a better all around player.

Jeter is one of the top defensive SS in baseball, still. With a healthy Granderson, A-Rod and Tex hitting behind him, his offensive numbers are only going to improve. He keeps himself in exellent shape so I think Jeter will rebound next year. (Jeter regardless)

Sorry to break this to you, but statistically, Jeter was one of the worst 5 defensive shortstops in all of baseball last year and his "gold glove" this year was widely ridiculed as a joke. His UZR #'s are horrible (average in baseball is a +1 and he ranked at -18).

Please tell me how his numbers are only going to improve. You know he is turning 37 in June right? Players don't improve at age 37. Last year was NOT a statistical oddity, 2009 was. Look at his stats over the last several years and you will see a player in obvious decline. I'd take him on my team any day because the guy is a freaking winner but he is on the back side of a great career my friend, and it is a steep slope!


Pedroia has never hit more then 17 HRs, he's never hit more then 83 RBIs. He may some day hit with the kind of power Cano does and he may produce RBIs like Cano does but until he does, you can't say he's as good or better. I also don't think he's a better fielder. I'd say they were pretty close. (Cano)

First of all, Pedroia bats 2nd so is not EXPECTED to hit HR's, he is a doubles machine and because of where he bats is not EXPECTED to get a ton of RBI's, he's expected to score runs. He has seasons of 118 and 115 runs and was on pace for over 110 last year before he broke his foot on a foul ball (Cano has a career best of 103). His career OBP is .369 vs .347 for Cano and his OPS is barely lower than Cano's .829 vs .836 despite all those HR's you brag about from Cano.

Plus, Pedroia has won an AL MVP and is generally regarded as the 2nd best defensive 2nd baseman in baseball behind Chase Utley. His defensive metrics are much better than Cano's. Push comes to shove I take Pedroia because of the intangibles like Jeter.


Gonzalez is a good player but I am not as impressed as many are offensively. Gonzalez played in one of the weakest divisions in Baseball, historically. The NLW has been poor in terms of pitching for several years. of note, The Freak, Matt Cain, Chad Billingsly, Clayton Kershaw, Ubaldo Jiminez... all starting pitchers in the NLW. Please don't tell me they are pitching weak. He is going to see much better pitching in the ALE. We'll see how he does. He's good defensively but Tex is the best defensive 1B in the AL. I don"t agree that Youklas is as good as you believe and Poppy, well, will he be the Ortiz from 2010 or will he be the Ortiz from 2009? You can ask the same question about Jeter. Gonzalez hits for power and has good RBI production but he's going to have to show he can do it in the ALE. Tex is Tex. He's the best 1st baseman in the American League. (Teixeira)

Gonzalez has nothing to prove offensively. He has been one of the best hitters in all of MLB for the last 5 years. He has played in what is statistically the worst hitters park in all of baseball and has still performed on par with Teixeria. Look at their stats from last year, (bear in mind the park they play in): -- AGon on top, Tex on bottom
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.29831101.393.511
.25633108.365.481despite playing in one of the best hitters ballparks in all of MLB, Teixera trails in average, OBP, and Slugging while leading in HR by 2 and RBI by 7 despite Gonzalez playing with a vastly underwhelming supporting cast.

For the record, AGon's road #'s, away from Petco were:




AVG OBP SLG OPS
.315.402.578.980He also hit 20 HR's and had 59 RBI's on the road away from PETCO so project those numbers out playing 1/2 of his games at Fenway instead and you will see things differently I'm sure.

One last thing, defensively, AGon was considered the best defensive 1st baseman in the NL, and he is younger than Teixera. I love Tex but over the next several years, give me AGon.

I agree. (Ortiz)



(Agreed)



CC and Lester are very good and very close. I would take either one honestly. No argument there. (the one thing that tips the scales in Lester's favor is that he is 4 years younger than CC)Lee and Bucky are not. Buchholz had one good year. He may have more but that remains to be seen. He struggled big time in his previous 3 season. Cliff has been dominating his last three season. Correction, last 2 seasons. 3 seasons ago he struggled so badly that the Indians sent him to 3A ball. He's also 6 years younger than Lee (who BTW isn't even a Yankee yet) AND, he had the second best ERA in all of baseball despite pitching in the AL East. I would give the advantage to Lee overall but it is a lot closer than you might like to admit.Beckett was horrible last year, Agreed but it was mostly due to injuries. If you look at his career numbers they suggest he will return to normal (and he is the same age as CC BTW) Lacky was OK but not as good as years past. Agree, but that had more to do with adjustments to a new league. Again, he is the same age as Cliff Lee so if the suggestion is that Lee has plenty in the tank then you would have to agree that Lackey fits into the same mold. Hughes was great at the start but dropped off towards the end. dropped off is being generous. He fell off a cliff and was shelled over the 2nd half. Petite had an excellent season last year dispite the whole trial ordeal etc. Lots of distractions last year and he still pitched very well. In the first half yes you are right, but he only pitched 13.1 innings after July. He is by the way 38 but in fairness Hughes is only 24. If he comes back then it's probably a wash, assuming Beckett returns to form. I'd say this is a push. Burnett had major control problems last year. DiceK has struggle big time the past two seasons. I'd say the edge here is to the Yankees if Lee gets signed. 1- that's a big if still. 2- even IF they sign him, the Sox have 4 proven arms under the age of 32 and Dice is only 30. 3- The Yankees have 2 proven guns (counting Lee) under 32, and a potential gamer at 24. They also have a guy that's 38 and another at 34. All things being equal, give me the Sox rotation


I agree 100%. If Rivera drops off, then the edge wings but if he's the same Mariano, then it's the Yankees.absolutely agree, and I give the edge to Rivera

I think the Yankees have better middle relief then the Red Sox do. who? Joba? You and I, and everyone else knows Bard is in a different league than the headcase from Nebraska. Both pens are a question mark at this point but that's something that's up in the air at this point.



I guess that's why you play the games. most accurate thing either of us have said all day. :

 

[raichledog]

Hey, don't take my word for it. You can ask any GM in the league or any Manager or what have you. He's far from one of the poorest but it's your story, you tell it.

Perhaps this will help:

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/6238/gold-glove-results-mixed-as-usual

I have to get this out of the way ... Yes, Derek Jeter has just won another Gold Glove.

It's his fifth, which means he's now won at least four more Gold Gloves than he's deserved. By any stretch of the fever-crazed imagination.

Just to give you an idea ... Every year, John Dewan and Baseball Info Solutions conduct their own process, the Fielding Bible Awards. There are 10 "voters" (with two of the individual voters actually amalgams, of video scouts and fans). Some of the voters are looking at the same Baseball Info Solutions numbers; I do, and I suspect that John Dewan does. But Peter Gammons votes, and he's got his own sources. Bill James votes, and he's got his own universe. Hal Richman votes, and he's got his own institution. Et cetera.

[+] Enlarge Anthony J. Causi/Icon SMIDerek Jeter won another Gold Glove, but it doesn't appear to be based on his defensive play.


The voting doesn't differentiate the leagues. Each voter is required to rank 10 shortstops. This year, 20 shortstops received at least one point in the voting.

Jeter wasn't one of them. Not a single voter thought that Jeter was even the 10th-best shortstop in the major leagues.

Of course, it's not just us. Nobody who really follows baseball believes that Jeter is an outstanding defensive player. The Yankees, who see him every day, don't believe that. The writers who cover the Yankees every day don't believe that. Frankly, I'm not sure the managers and the coaches who actually voted for Jeter believe that.

I think they keep giving him the award as a gesture of respect. In a different sort of society, they might simply bow in his presence, then kiss one of his World Series rings. Or cross themselves whenever Game 3 of the Yankees' 2001 Division Series is mentioned. Instead they somewhat mindlessly give him their Gold Glove support every year, even as everyone who's actually paying attention knows the Yankees would prevent more runs if almost anyone else were playing shortstop.

At best, it's an idiosyncratic choice. At worst, it's just another reminder that the men tasked with this award -- which many people consider serious business -- don't take it seriously. But then, we already knew, didn't we?

Of course, Jeter isn't the only beneficiary of the Yankee halo; Mark Teixeira wins his fourth Gold Glove (and second as a Yankee), Robinson Cano his first.

I will happily admit that I don't really get Teixeira. Maybe he's one of those players you really do have to "see every day" to appreciate. The numbers that we've got for him are not impressive. I didn't rank him among the 10 best first basemen in the majors, and neither did Peter Gammons. But Bill James had him No. 1, and so did Hal Richman. I voted for Daric Barton, and maybe 1) Barton's really as good as his numbers, and 2) his reputation will eventually catch up with those numbers. Teixeira figures to keep winning them for a while, though

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Perhaps this will help:

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/6238/gold-glove-results-mixed-as-usual

I have to get this out of the way ... Yes, Derek Jeter has just won another Gold Glove.

It's his fifth, which means he's now won at least four more Gold Gloves than he's deserved. By any stretch of the fever-crazed imagination.

Just to give you an idea ... Every year, John Dewan and Baseball Info Solutions conduct their own process, the Fielding Bible Awards. There are 10 "voters" (with two of the individual voters actually amalgams, of video scouts and fans). Some of the voters are looking at the same Baseball Info Solutions numbers; I do, and I suspect that John Dewan does. But Peter Gammons votes, and he's got his own sources. Bill James votes, and he's got his own universe. Hal Richman votes, and he's got his own institution. Et cetera.

[+] Enlarge Anthony J. Causi/Icon SMIDerek Jeter won another Gold Glove, but it doesn't appear to be based on his defensive play.


The voting doesn't differentiate the leagues. Each voter is required to rank 10 shortstops. This year, 20 shortstops received at least one point in the voting.

Jeter wasn't one of them. Not a single voter thought that Jeter was even the 10th-best shortstop in the major leagues.

Of course, it's not just us. Nobody who really follows baseball believes that Jeter is an outstanding defensive player. The Yankees, who see him every day, don't believe that. The writers who cover the Yankees every day don't believe that. Frankly, I'm not sure the managers and the coaches who actually voted for Jeter believe that.

I think they keep giving him the award as a gesture of respect. In a different sort of society, they might simply bow in his presence, then kiss one of his World Series rings. Or cross themselves whenever Game 3 of the Yankees' 2001 Division Series is mentioned. Instead they somewhat mindlessly give him their Gold Glove support every year, even as everyone who's actually paying attention knows the Yankees would prevent more runs if almost anyone else were playing shortstop.

At best, it's an idiosyncratic choice. At worst, it's just another reminder that the men tasked with this award -- which many people consider serious business -- don't take it seriously. But then, we already knew, didn't we?

Of course, Jeter isn't the only beneficiary of the Yankee halo; Mark Teixeira wins his fourth Gold Glove (and second as a Yankee), Robinson Cano his first.

I will happily admit that I don't really get Teixeira. Maybe he's one of those players you really do have to "see every day" to appreciate. The numbers that we've got for him are not impressive. I didn't rank him among the 10 best first basemen in the majors, and neither did Peter Gammons. But Bill James had him No. 1, and so did Hal Richman. I voted for Daric Barton, and maybe 1) Barton's really as good as his numbers, and 2) his reputation will eventually catch up with those numbers. Teixeira figures to keep winning them for a while, though

I don't know how you thought this would help. Yeah, Baseball has given him two (2) Golden Gloves in consecutive years. This business of thinking he's a pretty decent Shortstop is not just MY opinion. Obviously, others think so as well.

 

[WDN]

I don't know how you thought this would help. Yeah, Baseball has given him two (2) Golden Gloves in consecutive years. This business of thinking he's a pretty decent Shortstop is not just MY opinion. Obviously, others think so as well.

He didnt deserve it this year. Its like the probowl voting. Name gets you a lot.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I don't know how you thought this would help. Yeah, Baseball has given him two (2) Golden Gloves in consecutive years. This business of thinking he's a pretty decent Shortstop is not just MY opinion. Obviously, others think so as well.

The guy doesn't commit errors very often, but his range isn't even average anymore. He didn't deserve the gold glove. He got it pretty much based on his name and and low error count. Andrus is twice the short stop Jeter is. Even with the extra errors.

 

[raichledog]

I don't know how you thought this would help. Yeah, Baseball has given him two (2) Golden Gloves in consecutive years. This business of thinking he's a pretty decent Shortstop is not just MY opinion. Obviously, others think so as well.

Did you read the article? Not one single vote to even be in the top 10 shortstops in all of baseball... not ONE SINGLE VOTE. Obviously you are choosing to ignore the facts. Yankee fans are like that. lol j/k

Jeets WAS a GREAT shortstop, and he IS a GREAT leader and ballplayer. He just is NOT, by any measure, a great shortstop any more. The numbers support my statement, in fact they make it impossible to ignore.

 

[raichledog]

I don't know how you thought this would help. Yeah, Baseball has given him two (2) Golden Gloves in consecutive years. This business of thinking he's a pretty decent Shortstop is not just MY opinion. Obviously, others think so as well.

Maybe this helps:

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/11693/metrics-shed-light-jeter-gold-glove-awards

Perhaps the most interesting result was that, whether you look at Baseball Info Solutions plus-minus or Fangraphs.com’s Ultimate Zone Rating, not a single player who ranked first in his respective position finished first in the Gold Glove voting. That’s not to say that several high-quality performers weren’t recognized, but that the elite defenders at each position by advanced metrics were shut out across the board.

Worst Plus-Minus Among Qualified Shortstops, 2010 Season (Min. 400 Innings)

Yuniesky Betancourt, KC -15 Derek Jeter, NYY -13 Marco Scutaro, BOS -5 Asdrubal Cabrera, CLE -5 >>Source: Baseball Info Solutions


Worst UZR/150 Among Qualified Shortstops, 2010 Season

Jason Bartlett, TB -13.8 Yuniesky Betancourt, KC -9.2 Derek Jeter, NYY -5.4 Marco Scutaro, BOS -3.3 >>Source: Fangraphs.com


SS Derek Jeter

The yearly debate continues. The New York Yankees Derek Jeter received his fifth career Gold Glove award this season, and, according to Baseball Info Solutions, it’s nearly indefensible. According BIS, Jeter’s plus-minus was -13 in 2010, the second worst among all shortstops. In the same vein, Jeter had 33 defensive misplays, second most among AL shortstops to the Los Angeles Angels Erick Aybar. By another metric, UZR/150 (Ultimate Zone Rating per 150 defensive games), Jeter also failed to hold up, coming in as the third-worst at the position, ahead of only Kansas City Royals Yuniesky Betancourt and the Tampa Bay Rays Jason Bartlett.

What’s equally interesting is that Jeter ranked first among shortstops in fielding percentage at .989 (among those with at least 500 innings), thanks to only six errors. This suggests that the voters are looking at only one aspect of fielding (errors), while ignoring equally important aspects such as range. As the advanced metrics suggest, it’s not Jeter’s ability to field balls he gets to that’s the issue, but rather his ability to get to balls in general.