Replacing a Weakness

[haleyrules]

Agreed.

The emphasis of the defense should be on the secondary.

Secondary is well named!! It is indeed secondary...Put the heat to them...Passrush first. Nobody is intimidated by a fruitcake coner!!.

 

[robjay04]

They played a lot of keeping things underneath and tackle. They did it well. They got to 13-3 with it. Played a conservative style and did well.

Now you're assuming we're bringing in replacements that can either do that better or be so dynamic that we can let loose and play a more aggressive style. But the guys we had got jobs. If they hadn't maybe I'd buy we can get better easily.

You're welcome to be optimistic. I prefer to be reasonable.

I would've been okay with bringing one or two players back at a reasonable price. I am glad the team didn't get into a bidding war for them. Wilcox and Church got paid too much---5M is too much of a hit for 8 games of Mo. Only contract I would've considered matching would be Carr because I believe his contract is structured as a series of one year deals.

On the other hand---playing a conservative style while keeping the play in front of you is easy. We can only get by with it because of the efficiency of our offense. If we are going to pay big money on secondary players, I would prefer those players stand out and make plays instead of playing to not get beat and keeping the play, purposely letting the receiver catch the ball just to tackle them right away. Part of that is the scheme...I believe part of it can be attributed to our coordinators masking our deficiencies in the passing game.

Just because a team with a ton of cap space pays a player, that doesn't mean that we should've. I would never mirror the Bucs, Jets or Jets organizations. Ravens? Maybe...they can give Mo a prove it deal, we have been down that road.

 

[robjay04]

Funny how they keep blaming the players....for not executing the horrible scheme and game plan.

And now they are "too expensive" to resign. I don't care who you have back there. You could have pro bowlers across the board..and it still wouldn't matter. This zone scheme we are going back too is garbage. Hoping an offense will make a mistake...is equivalent to an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand.

If we are exclusively going to be a zone oriented secondary...then I expect us to give up more yards than we ever have. Considering we have no pass rush....

After going back and watching the playoff loss...I'm more convinced than ever...we will never win as long as Marinellie is the defensive coordinator.

Here is to 2017....

Well if it's the scheme that is at fault, isn't it dumb to pay a first round bust(Mo), a guy most of us wanted cut a year ago(Wilcox) and two players past their prime?

If your prophecy is true, Rod will be a goner this time next season so I'm happy we didn't waste one more season with the same players considering they aren't that great...I'm sure you can agree with that.

 

[Pants]

This is like Christmas for you. You are like Ralphie expecting a Red Ryder Carbine Action 200-shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock under the tree. Careful with them corners, kid. You'll put your eye out.

But didn't ralphie get that at the end of the movie????

 

[jday]

This is like Christmas for you. You are like Ralphie expecting a Red Ryder Carbine Action 200-shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock under the tree. Careful with them corners, kid. You'll put your eye out.

*****, that was a dated reference.

 

[conner01]

Don't you guys understand if they had not screwed up the cap so bad I bet all of the guy would have been back or most. It's because all they do is restructure contracts is why this happend. You were, 13-3 you should have been able to add to this team not decimate the D because you had no cap room.

They could have kept a couple of them had they wanted to
It scares me to make so much change at once but did you want to pay Carr what he got? Did you want to sign Mo to a long term contract? Did you want to pay church what he got
Church and Carr are better players than fans give them credit for here but they got paid dearly and looks like they felt adding a safety and cb who are starter quality prospects in this draft was easier than adding a "war daddy" pass rusher

 

[rwalters31]

All of us would agree that teams should focus their offseason efforts on improving upon their weaknesses. In 2016, we had a very efficient passing offense, arguably the best rushing offense in the league and statistically a very good rushing defense.

Out of those 3 units, we have not suffered any huge losses. Most of our offseason losses have come from our passing defense. Our passing defense was our weakness in 2016 and has been for quite some time. Last season, with JJ Wilcox, Brandon Carr, Barry Church and Morris Claiborne playing (or not playing because of injury), our defense ranked 26th in the league in passing defense. I have defended some of these players on here and they are not awful players but the numbers do not lie.

Before Rod Marinelli came to Dallas, his defenses were known for getting turnovers. In the last 4 seasons, Wilcox, Carr, Church and Mo had a grand total of 16 interceptions. That averages to 4 per season COMBINED. Each player had seasons where they didn't even have a single interception. In my opinion, it is unacceptable for any secondary player that plays a majority of snaps to not get a single interception for an entire season, especially when you are a seasoned veteran which all 4 of those players should be considered at this point.

Now, after taking in those statistics, most of which are well known to this message board. Why in the world would you allocate in excess of 5 million dollars per season, per player to keep this unit together? How much worse can we possibly be than 4 interceptions per season and a 26th ranked passing defense? I know it can "always be worse". I was here for the 2013 season when we had the worst defense in Cowboys history....so were all 4 of the players we let go.

I am happy we are embracing some change and actually trying to fix a weakness instead of overpaying to keep the status quo. You can't let one good season blind you from your end goal. The 2007 season blinded Jerry Jones in handing out huge, regrettable contracts to Ken Hamlin, Flozell Adams and Marion Barber...and eventually led to the trade for Roy Williams. That set our team back years and cost Romo a good part of his career, we can't do the same to Dak.

My counter point is this, having the 28 pick in the draft, the Cowboys draft history has us picking players that have been past over by other teams because of injuries or off field issues. The players that did not go away in FA are still average players on defense and the OL players starting for the ones that left are just average at this point. By the way the Cowboys have had the 2nd round pick a throw away pick a lot of resent years. You have us as just a couple of players away from a contender but there are too many holes and just unproven players to be in that position.

 

[Supercowboy1986]

People are acting like everyone is freaking out because we lost a few overpaid scrubs in the secondary. We're freaking out because we continue to go into each season with a bunch of nobodies on the defense, particularly the D-line. Our hope rests in the talents of one-game-wonder David Irving and recent-3rd-round-pick Charles Tapper. Marinelli manages to not improve the D-line at all with each passing year. Heck, if not for Sean Lee, who was already here when Marinelli got here, our defense would be historically awful. And it looks like purging our secondary will give us another year of not addressing the D-line early in the draft. People forget that our entire core on offense, outside of Dak, is composed of 1st round picks (Zeke, Dez, Beard, Smith, Martin). Not to mention, our best defensive player in recent history, Ware, was also a 1st round pick. Meanwhile, our current defense is built of a few 2nd round gambles and a bunch of mid-to-late round guys with low ceilings.

I completely agree with what you are saying. I disagree with this being the cause of the "outrage" of letting all those players walk. You've clearly thought about this rationally, you're the minority in this regard.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

It's because folks are afraid of change.

Fear of loss almost always outweighs fear of gain.

Pass defense has been the "Achilles heal" for this team for quite a while... And it certainly isn't all about pass rush either.

I'm not quite so sure of that. I long suspected that our D-backs weren't so bad, but they were getting burned by a bad pass rush. I hope you're right though.

 

[khiladi]

We did let them walk.... If we wanted to keep them we could have paid them. Carr even said himself he wanted to stay in Dallas but there is also a business side. The Cowboys simply had a number in mind they were worth and when it went above that decided to back away..

Of course if we paid them big money they would have stayed... Any athlete would...

The point is, their market value was a lot more than we could afford. It was bad planning and they weren't going to stay for peanuts. If they were going to take peanuts to stay here, we would have gladly paid them peanuts.

 

[robjay04]

I'm not quite so sure of that. I long suspected that our D-backs weren't so bad, but they were getting burned by a bad pass rush. I hope you're right though.

Believe it or not, our pass rush was middle of the pack last season. We were still ranked 26th.

The way people talk, you would think our sack total ranked dead last...fact is teams don't get pressure like they used to because of the quick passing game.

 

[gimmesix]

People are acting like everyone is freaking out because we lost a few overpaid scrubs in the secondary. We're freaking out because we continue to go into each season with a bunch of nobodies on the defense, particularly the D-line. Our hope rests in the talents of one-game-wonder David Irving and recent-3rd-round-pick Charles Tapper. Marinelli manages to not improve the D-line at all with each passing year. Heck, if not for Sean Lee, who was already here when Marinelli got here, our defense would be historically awful. And it looks like purging our secondary will give us another year of not addressing the D-line early in the draft. People forget that our entire core on offense, outside of Dak, is composed of 1st round picks (Zeke, Dez, Beard, Smith, Martin). Not to mention, our best defensive player in recent history, Ware, was also a 1st round pick. Meanwhile, our current defense is built of a few 2nd round gambles and a bunch of mid-to-late round guys with low ceilings.

Yes, fans' concerns about the defense have less to do with losing McClain, J. Crawford, Carr, Church, Claiborne and Wilcox than bringing in Moore, Carroll and Paea. The defensive line was already a weakness and now the secondary also has to be addressed. Letting Leary go with Free retiring also might mean that offensive line has to be addressed.

So instead of moving around in the first round (if necessary) to get an end we want, we're more likely to stay put and pick from a DE, DB and RT, then try to address one of those other positions in the second round, where the odds of finding a starter drop.

 

[big dog cowboy]

The point is, their market value was a lot more than we could afford. It was bad planning and they weren't going to stay for peanuts.

Here is the counter point. It makes a ton of sense.

Between Carr, Claiborne, Church and Wilcox- $70.8 mil worth of contracts were given out... If the Cowboys had given out those contracts most on here would have said JJ finally snapped.

 

[jobberone]

The game schematics have changed drastically the past 10 years. Look at the pass chart diagrams as well as average time that QB's hold onto the ball. It equates to shorter pass patterns, quicker throws and getting the ball out to the perimeter more often. QB's are more about sending extra receivers out on pass plays than having extra protection. This negates the effectiveness of the outside rush. Now your edge rushers in a 4-3 have to be more like 3-4 OLB's...get upfield and expect to chase the ball afterward.

This has also increased the use of more players that fit the safety position. Lots of 'rover backs', traditional SS playing linebackers, more 3 safeties in nickel and dime packages.

Now QB's are more affected by interior pressure than edge pressure and you really have to build a defense from the DB's to the LB's then to the D-Line. 10 years ago you built your defense from D-Line to the DB's and then the smart play was to place a low priority on LB's.

The good news is I expect this team to play a lot more zone coverage. It's easier to find zone corners because they don't need elite speed and have those special, unique physical abilities required to be a good man corner. Instead, if you have a CB that has a good feel for zone coverage and tackles well, you pretty much have the guy you want. Like Mike Zimmer once said...I can find 10 zone corners off the street.

I don't think Rod has had the corners he wanted since he's been the D-Coordinator outside of Scandrick. Every corner we have picked up is more like Scandrick as a DB than they are like Carr or Claiborne.


YR

The bolded part is not entirely factual. The number one DT in the league last year for sacks was Geno Atkins who was tied for 18th in the league with 9 sacks. In 2015 there were three DTs tied for 9th being Atkins with 11 as well as Donald and Short.

It is the DEs and LBs who still get most of the sacks. My guess is one of our edge rushers this year will be J Smith.

You are correct that teams try to get the ball out sooner and they do use 4 and 5 WR sets. There are often 4-6 receivers on the field not counting a possible RB.

Teams have to be flexible enough to play both zone and man sometimes even a zone and man. Teams that aren't flexible often find themselves trying to play against too many mismatches.

 

[jobberone]

They played a lot of keeping things underneath and tackle. They did it well. They got to 13-3 with it. Played a conservative style and did well.

Now you're assuming we're bringing in replacements that can either do that better or be so dynamic that we can let loose and play a more aggressive style. But the guys we had got jobs. If they hadn't maybe I'd buy we can get better easily.

You're welcome to be optimistic. I prefer to be reasonable.

That's reasonable but none were playmakers. One was hurt a lot. They weren't worth the money. We have three solid corners and two safeties. We can build on that. Someone(s) almost always surprises at DB in camp. I'm much more worried about pass rush than pass defense although I'm not dismissing the latter.

 

[IrishAnto]

All of us would agree that teams should focus their offseason efforts on improving upon their weaknesses. In 2016, we had a very efficient passing offense, arguably the best rushing offense in the league and statistically a very good rushing defense.

Out of those 3 units, we have not suffered any huge losses. Most of our offseason losses have come from our passing defense. Our passing defense was our weakness in 2016 and has been for quite some time. Last season, with JJ Wilcox, Brandon Carr, Barry Church and Morris Claiborne playing (or not playing because of injury), our defense ranked 26th in the league in passing defense. I have defended some of these players on here and they are not awful players but the numbers do not lie.

Before Rod Marinelli came to Dallas, his defenses were known for getting turnovers. In the last 4 seasons, Wilcox, Carr, Church and Mo had a grand total of 16 interceptions. That averages to 4 per season COMBINED. Each player had seasons where they didn't even have a single interception. In my opinion, it is unacceptable for any secondary player that plays a majority of snaps to not get a single interception for an entire season, especially when you are a seasoned veteran which all 4 of those players should be considered at this point.

Now, after taking in those statistics, most of which are well known to this message board. Why in the world would you allocate in excess of 5 million dollars per season, per player to keep this unit together? How much worse can we possibly be than 4 interceptions per season and a 26th ranked passing defense? I know it can "always be worse". I was here for the 2013 season when we had the worst defense in Cowboys history....so were all 4 of the players we let go.

I am happy we are embracing some change and actually trying to fix a weakness instead of overpaying to keep the status quo. You can't let one good season blind you from your end goal. The 2007 season blinded Jerry Jones in handing out huge, regrettable contracts to Ken Hamlin, Flozell Adams and Marion Barber...and eventually led to the trade for Roy Williams. That set our team back years and cost Romo a good part of his career, we can't do the same to Dak.

Maybe you should also ask the question WHY did they only have 4 combined picks per season.

Is it all on the players?

I think not.

The defences inability to generate turnovers is not new and predates Marinelli.

If it were just one or two players then I could legitimately point the figure at them, but as just about everybody fails so the figure has to point elsewhere.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

The bolded part is not entirely factual. The number one DT in the league last year for sacks was Geno Atkins who was tied for 18th in the league with 9 sacks. In 2015 there were three DTs tied for 9th being Atkins with 11 as well as Donald and Short.

It is the DEs and LBs who still get most of the sacks. My guess is one of our edge rushers this year will be J Smith.

You are correct that teams try to get the ball out sooner and they do use 4 and 5 WR sets. There are often 4-6 receivers on the field not counting a possible RB.

Teams have to be flexible enough to play both zone and man sometimes even a zone and man. Teams that aren't flexible often find themselves trying to play against too many mismatches.

I never said that interior DL's get the most sacks. I said that QB's are more bothered by interior pressure. This has been stated by QB's like Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan and others.




YR

 

[robjay04]

Maybe you should also ask the question WHY did they only have 4 combined picks per season.

Is it all on the players?

I think not.

The defences inability to generate turnovers is not new and predates Marinelli.

If it were just one or two players then I could legitimately point the figure at them, but as just about everybody fails so the figure has to point elsewhere.

Marinelli defenses have a long history of creating turnovers. Blaming him for that is not fair. These same players had problems creating turnovers regardless of the coordinator and that won't change.

Besides Jones and Brown(admittedly are not much better) Marinelli didn't have any influence on the secondary. These are still Rob Ryan players.

 

[IrishAnto]

Marinelli defenses have a long history of creating turnovers. Blaming him for that is not fair. These same players had problems creating turnovers regardless of the coordinator and that won't change.

Besides Jones and Brown(admittedly are not much better) Marinelli didn't have any influence on the secondary. These are still Rob Ryan players.

I’m not just blaming Marinelli as I said this predates him.

We’ve seen what Phillips did in Houston and Denver, yet while he was here he had to resort in telling us that forcing the opposition to punt was a turnover too.

And that was with 8 former No. 1 draft picks on defence as well as Ware in his pomp!

Like I said when it’s a player or two then blame the player(s), but when it’s everyone then blaming the players is missing the mark.

 

[Diehardblues]

It's because folks are afraid of change.

Fear of loss almost always outweighs fear of gain.

Pass defense has been the "Achilles heal" for this team for quite a while... And it certainly isn't all about pass rush either.

No, but it begins there. Fix the DL and it will enhance our secondary.