Rule on arm moving forward

[Ranched]

MEANWHILE....

 

[nalam]

By the letter of the rule, it's an incomplete pass. As is the tuck rule. I think the point isn't was it a fumble per the current rule - it was clearly an incomplete pass. But both this rule and the tuck rule seem to be kinda dumb. If the ball didn't leave his hand going forward, how it that a pass? If the QB is attempting to tuck the ball away and clearly not trying to pass the ball anymore but fumbles, how is that an incomplete pass?

Again, I'm not questioning the call on the play - it was 100% the correct call. I'm only making the case both this rule and the tuck rule are flawed and don't really make sense.

well said !

 

[boysbeyond4ever]

well said !

So then the empty hand is no more? That would be the only question I would raise about this, because his hand sure was empty. If they got rid of that fine-incomplete pass. But did they definitely eliminate that?

 

[RonnieT24]

I knew immediately that they were going to rule that a forward pass. He got his arm going forward for a nanosecond before the ball was knocked loose. It's yet another stupid quirk in NFL rules. If he was running with the ball and that happened it's a fumble without question. Since he was "attempting to pass" it wasn't even though the ball was knocked out of his hand before he completed his throwing motion. Ergo stupid rule.. correct call.

 

[TheHerd]

Why?

I agree on the tuck rule, and that was a SCREW U rule aimed at Al Davis who kept fighting the NFL on everything.

In this case, however, you are asking to make a good objective rule into a subjective rule w/ huge grey areas. Think about the confusion it would cause to change the rule to what you are proposing.

Because until the ball leaves your hand, it isn't a pass. How the ball leaves the hand is what I care about. Not a huge deal, just seems strange to me if the ball doesn't leave the hand going forward it can still be a pass. Maybe it never happens again.

 

[boysbeyond4ever]

Because until the ball leaves your hand, it isn't a pass. How the ball leaves the hand is what I care about. Not a huge deal, just seems strange to me if the ball doesn't leave the hand going forward it can still be a pass. Maybe it never happens again.

But it may be a huge deal down the road. So again is the empty hand sill a part of NFL rules still or not? Not trying to be d--k just curious. If there is no "empty hand" fumble any longer then fine. Game is better for it., and the officials have an easier time toing their job competently and consistently. That's all we should want and the least we should expect.

 

[Runwildboys]

Because until the ball leaves your hand, it isn't a pass. How the ball leaves the hand is what I care about. Not a huge deal, just seems strange to me if the ball doesn't leave the hand going forward it can still be a pass. Maybe it never happens again.

He's in the process of passing the ball the moment his arm starts moving forward. Equate it to the snap of the ball. The snap (and therefore, the play) begins the moment the center moves the ball. They don't wait until the ball leaves his hand to start the play and call it a snap.

 

[RonnieT24]

He's in the process of passing the ball the moment his arm starts moving forward. Equate it to the snap of the ball. The snap (and therefore, the play) begins the moment the center moves the ball. They don't wait until the ball leaves his hand to start the play and call it a snap.

Frankly I would like to see the rule adjusted to allow it to be called a fumble of the ball is still in the hand of the QB and the defender's hand/arm knocks the ball out even when the arm is going forward. Go ahead and give the QB the arm going forward and being hit on the arm or shoulder but if the defender stuffs the ball before it leaves the hand I think that's a fumble. The ball is still in the control of the QB until the defender's hand knocks it out. To me that's a fumble.. I know they won't change the rule just to make me happy but that is the change I would like to see. Of course watch them have exactly the same scenario against Dak in the playoffs and call it a fumble.. You know it's coming..

 

[Runwildboys]

Frankly I would like to see the rule adjusted to allow it to be called a fumble of the ball is still in the hand of the QB and the defender's hand/arm knocks the ball out even when the arm is going forward. Go ahead and give the QB the arm going forward and being hit on the arm or shoulder but if the defender stuffs the ball before it leaves the hand I think that's a fumble. The ball is still in the control of the QB until the defender's hand knocks it out. To me that's a fumble.. I know they won't change the rule just to make me happy but that is the change I would like to see. Of course watch them have exactly the same scenario against Dak in the playoffs and call it a fumble.. You know it's coming..

I could get behind that. It makes sense that if the QB has control of the ball and a defender, or even a teammate, hits the ball itself knocking it loose, it's a fumble.
That just made me think how funny it is that if DLaw had knock the ball out and grabbed it before it hit the ground, it would have been an interception.

 

[TheHerd]

He's in the process of passing the ball the moment his arm starts moving forward. Equate it to the snap of the ball. The snap (and therefore, the play) begins the moment the center moves the ball. They don't wait until the ball leaves his hand to start the play and call it a snap.

Maybe, but I consider it a pass when he throws it. If his hand goes forward, and he doesn’t throw but holds the ball and then runs, is that a pass play? Of course not. Just different ways of looking at something.

 

[Runwildboys]

Maybe, but I consider it a pass when he throws it. If his hand goes forward, and he doesn’t throw but holds the ball and then runs, is that a pass play? Of course not. Just different ways of looking at something.

Well, the pump fake is an argument in your favor. Unfortunately, that would leave it up to the officials to make a judgement call, again. "Was he throwing it, or was he pump faking it before it got hit?" Easier just to go under the assumption that a QB isn't going to pump fake when a sack is imminent.

 

[TheHerd]

Well, the pump fake is an argument in your favor. Unfortunately, that would leave it up to the officials to make a judgement call, again. "Was he throwing it, or was he pump faking it before it got hit?" Easier just to go under the assumption that a QB isn't going to pump fake when a sack is imminent.

Cant argue that. And anything that leaves more judgement calls to the refs is a bad thing.

 

[kskboys]

well said !

Not really. The tuck rule was an entirely different matter. They made up a rule on the spot, apparently to spite Al Davis. No one could make sense of it any other way, and it was done away w/.

The arm going forward rule has always been the rule, and it's logical and makes sense.

 

[kskboys]

So then the empty hand is no more? That would be the only question I would raise about this, because his hand sure was empty. If they got rid of that fine-incomplete pass. But did they definitely eliminate that?

The hand was not empty when his arm started forward.

 

[kskboys]

Because until the ball leaves your hand, it isn't a pass. How the ball leaves the hand is what I care about. Not a huge deal, just seems strange to me if the ball doesn't leave the hand going forward it can still be a pass. Maybe it never happens again.

You've never heard of "in the process"? I mean, I guess you guys are youngsters who haven't watched a lot of games. I don't know what else to conclude.

This happens all the time. Most in this thread who are bemoaning the fact that it wasn't called a fumble are merely doing so because of extreme bias. Seriously, how have you and others not seen this before? It's extremely common.

 

[RonnieT24]

The hand was not empty when his arm started forward.

Which is why to me it should be a fumble. No matter what you are TRYING to do with the ball as long as you have control of the ball and someone knocks it away before you can finish what you were trying to do it's a fumble. I think it's a pretty simple (famous last words) distinction to make. If you have control and someone takes control from you it's a fumble. The instant it leave your control, as in starts to spin off your fingers, it's a pass.

 

[kskboys]

Which is why to me it should be a fumble. No matter what you are TRYING to do with the ball as long as you have control of the ball and someone knocks it away before you can finish what you were trying to do it's a fumble. I think it's a pretty simple (famous last words) distinction to make. If you have control and someone takes control from you it's a fumble. The instant it leave your control, as in starts to spin off your fingers, it's a pass.

It's not, Ron. That distintion would be extremely difficult, and you'd be making something simple into something as complicated as what in hades a catch is!!!!

One of the the three things we disagree on, one of them being something about ice cream.

 

[HowardC]

Here is the rule. It was a forward pass as soon as his hand started moving forward.

Item 1. Forward Movement of Hand

When a player is in control of the ball and is attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass.

If, after intentional forward movement of his hand, contact by an opponent materially affects the passer, causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else.
If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball during an attempt to bring it back toward his body, it is a fumble.
If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to re-cock his arm, it is a fumble.

Ridiculous rule geared towards the offense.

 

[MarcusRock]

Not really. The tuck rule was an entirely different matter. They made up a rule on the spot, apparently to spite Al Davis. No one could make sense of it any other way, and it was done away w/.

The arm going forward rule has always been the rule, and it's logical and makes sense.

No, the rule was on the books, otherwise they couldn't have done away with it like they have. Today, it's a fumble but it was there and unfortunately correct as called. Same as the Dez no-catch. The play would be a different outcome now but the rule was on the books then and correctly called then before being changed in the rulebook later.

 

[nyc-cowboy]

Which is why to me it should be a fumble. No matter what you are TRYING to do with the ball as long as you have control of the ball and someone knocks it away before you can finish what you were trying to do it's a fumble. I think it's a pretty simple (famous last words) distinction to make. If you have control and someone takes control from you it's a fumble. The instant it leave your control, as in starts to spin off your fingers, it's a pass.

That might be in lay terms but not in football.

Its the same with a catch - players jumps up and "catches" the ball, in lay terms - he "caught" it. But in football a catch isn't considered a catch till he gets 2 feet down and makes a football move.