Salary cap adjustments

[jterrell]

various:
anything in the future more than 2 seasons is pointless for cap totals.
suffice to say we will be hurting cap wise for at least half a decade unless we make major team operational changes.

This team touches over half the roster's contracts every year it seems.
It certainly touches over half in a 2 year window.

Dez/Tyron: How much they cost in year 1 will determined by how we structure it.
Hopefully they'd grown a brain since the Carr deal and in fact do eat a decent year 1 cap hit like most teams.
Because the chickens always come home to roost and that money will only grow.
Dez should be paid like TO, sensible but big yearly money with little cost to part ways if things go sideways.
Not because Dez is a major risk but because Dez is a WR.

 

[AbeBeta]

More money, that isn't to say that the first years are going to be huge cap hits... which is my point... Even if you look at Romo's extension his first year wasn't a huge hit against the cap.

Really? A 12 mill cap hit isn't a huge hit? With these big deals you cannot avoid a considerable hits, even in the cap friendlier early years.

Like I've said -- Dez and Tyron are gonna hit the cap (combined) for anywhere between 16 and 20 mill in 2015

 

[jterrell]

I posted this in the wrong thread. So never mind.

He did fight it BTW(so did Wash), but lost anyways because the NFL has no desire to open itself up to real arbitration.
IT was clearly collusion but neither Wash nor Dallas can actually come out and say that without losing hundreds of millions of dollars and returning to a true free agency system.

 

[Galian Beast]

Really? A 12 mill cap hit isn't a huge hit? With these big deals you cannot avoid a considerable hits, even in the cap friendlier early years.

Like I've said -- Dez and Tyron are gonna hit the cap (combined) for anywhere between 16 and 20 mill in 2015

12 million isn't huge when you consider the fact that he already has a signing bonus and then they immediately restructured the contract.

And to think that Dez and Tyron are going to get 16-20 million... Especially when you consider only Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald break 16 million, the next nearest contract is 12 million and there are those in the top 10 as low as 9 million per year.

The highest paid left tackle makes 13 million per year. And that drops off to 8.5 million within the top 10...


That money is definitely there especially within backloaded contracts.

 

[AbeBeta]

12 million isn't huge when you consider the fact that he already has a signing bonus and then they immediately restructured the contract.

And to think that Dez and Tyron are going to get 16-20 million... Especially when you consider only Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald break 16 million, the next nearest contract is 12 million and there are those in the top 10 as low as 9 million per year.

The highest paid left tackle makes 13 million per year. And that drops off to 8.5 million within the top 10...


That money is definitely there especially within backloaded contracts.

Already had a signing bonus? Immediately restructured.

*** are you talking about?

He counted for 12 mill. That's a huge chunk

 

[Nightman]

You are entitled to your opinion of course but we share facts and facts are it is CHEAPER to keep Ware than to cut him.

The thought we will cut him and replace him with a better, younger player for his salary presumes we were gonna pay him 12m this year and we aren't.
His real cap value this year with his scheduled restructure is 1M less than it costs to cut him outright.

So WE MAKE 1 MILLION dollars by keeping Ware.

Please don't go there. The "fact" is if Ware plays next year for us without a pay cut, it will cost 12.75m. Whether you account for it over 1,2 or 3 years, every penny of that 12.75 has to be accounted for. That is what it costs. If you do a full restructure it adds 8.5m in new dead money to the 5.3m already attached to him in 2015.

The cap cost for his replacement would be 5m at most on a 12m a year player. DEs weren't getting anywhere close to that last year.

 

[Nightman]

Already had a signing bonus? Immediately restructured.

*** are you talking about?

He counted for 12 mill. That's a huge chunk

5.3m of Romo's 12m cap hit came from dead money from his last deal. Dez and TSmith don't carry over any dead money after 2014.

If TSmith's 5yr is activated for 8m, 7m of that can be restructured if they reach a new deal or add voidable years. Dez's hit will be no higher than 5m.

 

[AbeBeta]

5.3m of Romo's 12m cap hit came from dead money from his last deal. Dez and TSmith don't carry over any dead money after 2014.

If TSmith's 5yr is activated for 8m, 7m of that can be restructured if they reach a new deal or add voidable years. Dez's hit will be no higher than 5m.

and we did his deal that way because the Spencer tag forced us to do so. Plus it was a savings over the 20+ mill he would have hit us for otherwise. Had we had more space we certainly would have structured that differently.

Dez hitting the cap for no more than 5 mill is just fantasy talk. No way a deal averaging over 15 mill a year realistically yields that without a bunch of unrealistic back end years.

With Tyron, he's likely going to be the highest paid LT in the league after his deal - that'll likely be for about 12 mill a year with a 25 mill guarantee. Again, realistically it is hard to structure that without hitting the cap for a good 7-8 mill.

Regardless -- my argument was and remains that it is moronic to talk about 2015 having fewer cap commitments - as these deals aren't in yet and it is clear that we will get them done at some point. We are split hairs about how much $ it is going to be, but clearly it is more than it is on the books for right now

 

[jterrell]

Please don't go there. The "fact" is if Ware plays next year for us without a pay cut, it will cost 12.75m. Whether you account for it over 1,2 or 3 years, every penny of that 12.75 has to be accounted for. That is what it costs. If you do a full restructure it adds 8.5m in new dead money to the 5.3m already attached to him in 2015.

The cap cost for his replacement would be 5m at most on a 12m a year player. DEs weren't getting anywhere close to that last year.

Whether or not to pay Ware 12.5 is a fair question and concern.
But money already spent is just that.
And you don't get to unspend it.
You have to look at the actual options and pick the best and most tenable solution not ramble off to lalaland stuck on theory or wishes.
The contract was written with full intention of a restructure to lower the cap hit by 8.5M.

You don't like that plan which is your right.

But you also are failing to talk intelligently of the options by pretending we cut Ware, sign a replacement and somehow never see dead money at that position. Whether we push Ware's money off or someone new it is all the same. There has been nothing to suggest the team has any intention of altering the model. The vast majority of these pending FA are within a couple years age of Ware. And the large handful just under 30 will be two seasons away... Or mid contract.

Ware is a sure-fire Hall of Famer. It really is a shame our own fans think so little of him.

As to market that was one season. Look up Mario Williams to see what a primo DE got paid only two seasons ago.

 

[Nightman]

and we did his deal that way because the Spencer tag forced us to do so. Plus it was a savings over the 20+ mill he would have hit us for otherwise. Had we had more space we certainly would have structured that differently.

Dez hitting the cap for no more than 5 mill is just fantasy talk. No way a deal averaging over 15 mill a year realistically yields that without a bunch of unrealistic back end years.

With Tyron, he's likely going to be the highest paid LT in the league after his deal - that'll likely be for about 12 mill a year with a 25 mill guarantee. Again, realistically it is hard to structure that without hitting the cap for a good 7-8 mill.

Regardless -- my argument was and remains that it is moronic to talk about 2015 having fewer cap commitments - as these deals aren't in yet and it is clear that we will get them done at some point. We are split hairs about how much $ it is going to be, but clearly it is more than it is on the books for right now

Dez is not getting 15m a year. Desean Jackson, Pierre Garcon and Victor Cruz all just got deals similar to what Dez will get, 5/42-50m.

TSmith may get 5/60m with a 15m signing bonus but that is still in the 4-5m cap hit for the first year.

 

[Galian Beast]

Already had a signing bonus? Immediately restructured.

*** are you talking about?

He counted for 12 mill. That's a huge chunk

Romo was in his final year in 2013. They gave him an extension, and used the extension to restructure his 2013 contract. He already had a signing bonus baked in to his pay in the 2012 extension. You add the restructure and the signing bonus, and you get close to 12 million for the year. That isn't the case with Dez and Tyron, who in an extension don't have a lot of base pay and their signing bonus won't be nearly as large.

 

[AbeBeta]

Romo was in his final year in 2013. They gave him an extension, and used the extension to restructure his 2013 contract. He already had a signing bonus baked in to his pay in the 2012 extension. You add the restructure and the signing bonus, and you get close to 12 million for the year. That isn't the case with Dez and Tyron, who in an extension don't have a lot of base pay and their signing bonus won't be nearly as large.

Which further makes the comparison irrelevant. Dez and Tyron are getting new money -- show me how we are going to structure those deals so that there won't be a substantial commitment.

I'm slotting Dez at say 7 mill, 115 (around Larry Fitzgerald's deal) - let's say 30 mill guaranteed. Keeping in mind that might be a tad on the low side given that Fitz signed a couple of years ago.

Tyron likely gets something close to Joe Thomas' deal. 7 years 80 mill with close to 30 mill guaranteed.

You just can't do those two deals without having a substantial cap commitment in 2015. Yes, it will be lower than in subsequent years -- but what you are missing -- and your original point -- was that there is less money committed for 2015. Once these deals come through - and once Romo and others restructure -- that claim is going to be shown to be totally untrue.

 

[AbeBeta]

Dez is not getting 15m a year. Desean Jackson, Pierre Garcon and Victor Cruz all just got deals similar to what Dez will get, 5/42-50m.

TSmith may get 5/60m with a 15m signing bonus but that is still in the 4-5m cap hit for the first year.

First -- Dez is a better receiver than those guys. Second, several of those deals were two years ago.

Tyron Smith is the best LT in the NFC and he's only 23. He's going to get Joe Thomas money

 

[Nightman]

First -- Dez is a better receiver than those guys. Second, several of those deals were two years ago.

Tyron Smith is the best LT in the NFC and he's only 23. He's going to get Joe Thomas money

I wouldn't say Dez is any better than those guys. The numbers just don't support that. He is right in that ballpark and those should be the comparable WRs. He is not in the Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitz league.

 

[jterrell]

I wouldn't say Dez is any better than those guys. The numbers just don't support that. He is right in that ballpark and those should be the comparable WRs. He is not in the Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitz league.

DeSean and Cruz are both already barklng about being underpaid.
That being said neither guy is in Dez Bryant's class. Dez is a Calvin Johnson light type athlete.
He compares to Demaryious Thomas, Julio Jones or AJ Green not 175 pound DeSean Jackson/Victor Cruz.

Pierre Garcon was a career WR2. His numbers have blown up AFTER he signed his deal.

I think Dez is somewhere in between those extremes. He isn't signing for 50 million and he likely isn't getting 100m either.
5 years about 60-65m seems about right. Something that places him just above Mike Wallace and Percy Harvin but well below Fitz/CJ.

 

[Galian Beast]

Which further makes the comparison irrelevant. Dez and Tyron are getting new money -- show me how we are going to structure those deals so that there won't be a substantial commitment.

I'm slotting Dez at say 7 mill, 115 (around Larry Fitzgerald's deal) - let's say 30 mill guaranteed. Keeping in mind that might be a tad on the low side given that Fitz signed a couple of years ago.

Tyron likely gets something close to Joe Thomas' deal. 7 years 80 mill with close to 30 mill guaranteed.

You just can't do those two deals without having a substantial cap commitment in 2015. Yes, it will be lower than in subsequent years -- but what you are missing -- and your original point -- was that there is less money committed for 2015. Once these deals come through - and once Romo and others restructure -- that claim is going to be shown to be totally untrue.

You really don't know how the cap works...

 

[AbeBeta]

You really don't know how the cap works...

I said "show me" -- get you Missouri on or shut it.

 

[Galian Beast]

I said "show me" -- get you Missouri on or shut it.

You've convinced yourself of something despite the fact that it isn't remotely true.

Mike Wallace was signed to a 5 year 60 million dollar deal. Averaging 12 million per year. His cap hit for the 2013 year was 3.25 million.

Jake Long got 4 years 34 million dollars. 8.5 million per year. His 2013 cap figure was 4.25 million.

The longer these contracts are for the more prorated their signing bonuses are, thus limiting their impact in any given year. The initial base salary doesn't need to impact the contract for the first couple years, let alone the first year.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

 

[AbeBeta]

t it isn't remotely true.

Mike Wallace was signed to a 5 year 60 million dollar deal. Averaging 12 million per year. His cap hit for the 2013 year was 3.25 million.

Jake Long got 4 years 34 million dollars. 8.5 million per year. His 2013 cap figure was 4.25 million.

You've convinced yourself of something despite the fact that it isn't remotely true.

Mike Wallace was signed to a 5 year 60 million dollar deal. Averaging 12 million per year. His cap hit for the 2013 year was 3.25 million.

Jake Long got 4 years 34 million dollars. 8.5 million per year. His 2013 cap figure was 4.25 million.

The longer these contracts are for the more prorated their signing bonuses are, thus limiting their impact in any given year. The initial base salary doesn't need to impact the contract for the first couple years, let alone the first year.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

Jake Long hit FA at 27. Tyron will be 24. Tyron commands a longer and bier deal based on age. You want to lock guys up just a smidge past 30. Oh yeah - you missed on length. 5 years is max prorate.

Wallace comparison is meaningless. 60 some catches fo 800 yards in his contract year? He's a 2.

 

[Bluefin]

Dez hitting the cap for no more than 5 mill is just fantasy talk. No way a deal averaging over 15 mill a year realistically yields that without a bunch of unrealistic back end years.

Don't most big money contracts contain unrealistic back end salaries?

All players and agents are concerned with is how much up front guaranteed money is on the table.

Miami signed Mike Wallace last year to a 5 year, $60M deal with $27M guaranteed, including an $11M signing bonus.

His 2013 cap hit was only $3.25M.

The biggest initial signing bonus I've seen to a WR was the $16M Detroit paid to Calvin Johnson.

Dez Bryant, who dropped a team leading 12 passes last year, isn't Megatron.

I expect Dallas will sign Dez to a 7 year extension to enable future restructures or they will add years in the future to allow it (the player doesn't care).

How about $35M guaranteed? It would include the new signing bonus and the base salaries in '14, '15 and '16.

Let's say Bryant receives a $12M signing bonus (that's $1M more than Wallace), it will prorate $2.4M per season whether the deal is 5 years or 7 years.

When Dez signs, his 2014 base salary ($1.78M) will be lowed to the fourth year minimum ($0.73K) with the difference ($1.05M) being included in the new signing bonus.

Bryant's new 2014 cap number would be $4.2485M.

That would represent an increase of only $1.1M over his current '14 cap number ($3.1485M).

The Cowboys would be able to do the same thing in 2015 and 2016 to keep Bryant's contract cap friendly.

Even if you want to give Bryant a bigger initial signing bonus, it will not be a huge increase versus his current cap number.