Scouts.com Mock

[Hoofbite]

Did Bowe not participate in the Combines?
Were all these stats taken from the Combines?

Heres a pretty good site that has both combine and pro day, side-by-side.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10811

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Technically it was 4 years, but in reality it was 3 years of production.

However, it's also worth mentioning that Bowe, until his senior season, had an eye condition that rendered him almost legally blind. You could also consider that Bowe played with two other reciever, one of which will be a 1st rounder next year, and the other will be a 2nd rounder this year. Rice certainly didn't have receivers of that caliber on his team taking away catches.

or attention

It should also probably be mentioned that Rice was in a pass-happy system that's known to inflate WR stats.

342, the number of Jamarcus Russell passing attempts

202 attempts for Blake Mitchell

btw, I would take Bowe over Rice because he's more complete IMO while Rice is more of a one-trick pony

edit: Mitchell and Syvelle Newton together combined for 364 passing attempts, LSU was just ahead of South Carolina in team passing offense

 

[masomenos]

Rice was as productive as Bowe in 2 years, compared to 4 for Bowe. Also had a real live quarterback throwin him the ball. I personally would take Rice over any reciever in this class other than Johnson, and even thats a toss up. Go back and compare their stats against common the same teams and get back to me.....

If you would take Rice over anyone but Johnson then you would be making a huge mistake. Sidney Rice is this years Rashaun Woods, tremendous college production that just doesn't project well at the NFL level. Rice just doesn't have the explosiveness to get separation consistently against CBs in the NFL. There are at least 10 WRs worth taking before Rice this year. And I'm not comparing stats like you asked me to, but let's look at some of Rice's stats from last season.

7 catches for 151 yards 0 TDs against WOFFORD
9 catches for 161 yards 5 TDs against FLORIDA ATLANTIC
8 catches for 103 yards 0 TDs against CLEMSON
8 catches for 139 yards 1 TD against HOUSTON
6 catches for 90 yards 2 TDs against MIDDLE TENNESSEE ST

38 catches for 644 yards 8 TDs against LOW LEVEL OPPONENTS

That means WELL over half of his production (yards and TD wise) came in 5 games against a lower level of competition. This year Rice had 6 games where he failed to have at least 75 yards recieving, and in those 6 games he didn't score a single TD. How's that for disappearing in games? He had one good game against a good team, and that was against Arkansas and a highly athletic but highly overrated Chris Houston.

Pass on Rice.

 

[theogt]

or attention



342, the number of Jamarcus Russell passing attempts

202 attempts for Blake Mitchell

btw, I would take Bowe over Rice because he's more complete IMO while Rice is more of a one-trick pony

edit: Mitchell and Syvelle Newton together combined for 364 passing attempts, LSU was just ahead of South Carolina in team passing offense

Their team totals were 389 attempts for South Carolina and 368 attempts for LSU.

But the point wasn't the number of attempts. If I had Jerry Rice, I would throw the ball just because I had Jerry Rice. If the only WRs I had were scrubs, then I wouldn't throw the ball as much. In the SC offense, they throw the ball regardless of whether the players are any good, because that's simply their offensive scheme. So in the end, you could have Jerry Rice getting 100 catches because he's Jerry Rice, and Joe Schmoe getting 100 catches because he's in a pass-happy system. That doesn't mean that Joe Schmoe is as good a receiver as Jerry Rice.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Their team totals were 389 attempts for South Carolina and 368 attempts for LSU.

and 1 of those attempts was by Sidney Rice, 1 was by Ryan Succop, 1 was by Kenny McKinley, 2 by Tommy Beecher, 4 by Cade Thompson, and 15 by Chris Smelley, c'mon now, let's count the people who were really throwing the football

But the point wasn't the number of attempts. If I had Jerry Rice, I would throw the ball just because I had Jerry Rice. If the only WRs I had were scrubs, then I wouldn't throw the ball as much. In the SC offense, they throw the ball regardless of whether the players are any good, because that's simply their offensive scheme. So in the end, you could have Jerry Rice getting 100 catches because he's Jerry Rice, and Joe Schmoe getting 100 catches because he's in a pass-happy system. That doesn't mean that Joe Schmoe is as good a receiver as Jerry Rice.

that's all well and good but the top 4 LSU WRs had 65, 56, 59 and 35 receptions compared to 72, 51, 35 and 14 for South Carolina

the fact is that both teams were pass-happy last year

 

[theogt]

and 1 of those attempts was by Sidney Rice, c'mon now

that's all well and good but the top 4 LSU WRs had 65, 56, 59 and 35 receptions compared to 72, 51, 35 and 14 for South Carolina

the point I'm trying to make is that both teams were pass-happy last year, it doesn't matter who's system was more geared to the pass

The point I made flew completely over your head.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

The point I made flew completely over your head.

I got your point, but look at the statistics for the top 4 WRs on both teams, it doesn't apply in this case, as only 2 South Carolina WRs were made to look even remotely productive, as compared to 3 LSU WRs

 

[PlayMaker88]

Look up common opponets between Bowe, Rice, and Johnson...see what you get....you listed Clemson as a weak opponet.....Johnson's catches against Clemson 0 for 0 yrds

 

[theogt]

I got your point, but look at the statistics for the top 4 WRs on both teams, it doesn't apply in this case, as only 2 South Carolina WRs were made to look even remotely productive, as compared to 3 LSU WRs

I'm not sure how that negates the argument, but ok.

Look up common opponets between Bowe, Rice, and Johnson...see what you get....you listed Clemson as a weak opponet.....Johnson's catches against Clemson 0 for 0 yrds

Sure. Let's take a look at common opponents.

Mississippi State:
Bowe - 5 catches for 95 yards and 1 TD.
Rice - 2 catches for 13 yards and 0 TDs.

Auburn:
Bowe - 4 catches for 54 yards and 0 TDs.
Rice - 4 catches for 48 yards and 0 TDs.

Kentucky:
Bowe - 6 catches for 111 yards and 3 TDs.
Rice - 1 catch for 15 yards and 0 TDs.

Tennessee:
Bowe - 6 catches for 89 yards and 1 TD.
Rice - 3 catches for 52 yards and 0 TDs.

Arkansas:
Bowe - 5 catches for 68 yards and 0 TDs.
Rice - 7 catches for 126 yards and 1 TD.

Florida:
Bowe - 6 catches for 50 yards and 0 TDs.
Rice - 7 catches for 72 yards and 0 TDs.

Total Stats for Common Opponents:
Bowe - 32 catches for 488 yards and 5 TDs.
Rice - 24 catches for 326 yards and 1 TD.

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You're right. How could possibly not see that Rice is 10 times better than Bowe?

 

[B Smooth]

The cowboys would be trading back if the draft falls this way.

 

[masomenos]

I'm not sure how that negates the argument, but ok.

Sure. Let's take a look at common opponents.

Mississippi State:
Bowe - 5 catches for 95 yards and 1 TD.
Rice - 2 catches for 13 yards and 0 TDs.

Auburn:
Bowe - 4 catches for 54 yards and 0 TDs.
Rice - 4 catches for 48 yards and 0 TDs.

Kentucky:
Bowe - 6 catches for 111 yards and 3 TDs.
Rice - 1 catch for 15 yards and 0 TDs.

Tennessee:
Bowe - 6 catches for 89 yards and 1 TD.
Rice - 3 catches for 52 yards and 0 TDs.

Arkansas:
Bowe - 5 catches for 68 yards and 0 TDs.
Rice - 7 catches for 126 yards and 1 TD.

Florida:
Bowe - 6 catches for 50 yards and 0 TDs.
Rice - 7 catches for 72 yards and 0 TDs.

Total Stats for Common Opponents:
Bowe - 32 catches for 488 yards and 5 TDs.
Rice - 24 catches for 326 yards and 1 TD.

----------

You're right. How could possibly not see that Rice is 10 times better than Bowe?

Hey thanks for doin my dirty work and looking up common opponents, I just got on to do that exact same thing. Its funny how people can make a claim like "Player A" is 10 times better than "Player B" and tell you to just look at the stats...and then when you look at the stats they almost completely contradict what the person said. Rice is greatly overrated I mean just watch one of his highlight videos ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=vyTyCnw7AH8 ) and look at the lack of separation he's getting. Yes he makes some nice catches in traffic, but there are only about 2 plays where he's actually separated from the defender and one of them is him finding a hole in zone coverage.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm not sure how that negates the argument, but ok.

how can a system being helping a player more, when it's not as good as another when compared?

you can't say South Carolina's system helped Rice more than it did Bowe, because LSU's system was better, the stats prove otherwise

 

[theogt]

how can a system being helping a player more, when it's not as good as another when compared?

you can't say South Carolina's system helped Rice more than it did Bowe, because LSU's system was better, the stats prove otherwise

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

that we shouldn't note that South Carolina's offense had anything to do w/ anything

 

[theogt]

that we shouldn't note that South Carolina's offense had anything to do w/ anything

Ok, but why? I've told you why I think we should. And you've attempted to refute my point, but I can't quite understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ok, but why? I've told you why I think we should. And you've attempted to refute my point, but I can't quite understand what you're trying to say.

what are you talking about? I'm just refuting an inconsistency in your argument

 

[theogt]

what are you talking about? I'm just refuting an inconsistency in your argument

You said that my "passing system theory" didn't work because only two USC players were productive, whereas three LSU players were productive.

My question, is how does that refute my "passing system theory?"

 

[Bob Sacamano]

You said that my "passing system theory" didn't work because only two USC players were productive, whereas three LSU players were productive.

My question, is how does that refute my "passing system theory?"

because the USC passing system wasn't helping Rice anymore than LSU's was helping Bowe

 

[PlayMaker88]

You also have to take the QB into account. Not to mention Rice was constanly double covered....

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

Wow, I can't see the Cowboys letting Jarvis Moss stay on the board if he's there at 22. Too much of a physical talent!