screw this 3-4 crap

[AsthmaField]

I guess you have never heard of a blitz?

By lining up outside of Ellis the zone blitz becomes an option on any down, and his angle from 4-3 OLB with his speed could be scary.

Of course I've heard of the blitz. Isn't it served at IHOP?

How often have you seen our OLB's in the 4-3 sent after the QB? And that's when we played the 4-3 all the time (except for nickel, etc.) You know as well as I do that if Ware plays much 4-3 OLB that his chances to rush the QB will be minimal.

That's why we never used a first round pick on an OLB before Ware... or at least why it had been a couple of decades since we did. Because those guys make tackles and cover backs and tight ends. They aren't asked to go after the QB with any regularity.

Blind, you're saying he can blitz in a 4-3, which he can... but you know how seldom that happens. Ware is a pass rusher. That's why when we traded for Haley, we put him at DE in a 4-3 instead of OLB... those are the one's who rush the QB in a 4-3.

Most of the time, when we're in a 4-3, Ware will be at DE in passing situations, IMO. On running downs, Parcells won't have any problem with Ware at OLB... more size... why not. But 3rd and long? Ware will be at DE rushing the QB unless Bill wants to do it as some sort of a surprise.

You might could be like Nors and see him rush from an OLB position a few times during the season and say you're right... but Ware won't be doing that with any regularity.

 

[dbair1967]

I agree but looking at his size I see it is about the same as Haley both in terms of height and weight so I would not rule out his effectiveness in the 4-3 based purely on his size

Haley played DE once we acquired him, not OLB

Ware at DE would be fine in the 4-3 I think, though the pounding on running plays might take a toll on him this yr...3-4 OLB is really his best position IMO

David

 

[junk]

Of course I've heard of the blitz. Isn't it served at IHOP?

How often have you seen our OLB's in the 4-3 sent after the QB? And that's when we played the 4-3 all the time (except for nickel, etc.) You know as well as I do that if Ware plays much 4-3 OLB that his chances to rush the QB will be minimal.

That's why we never used a first round pick on an OLB before Ware... or at least why it had been a couple of decades since we did. Because those guys make tackles and cover backs and tight ends. They aren't asked to go after the QB with any regularity.

Blind, you're saying he can blitz in a 4-3, which he can... but you know how seldom that happens. Ware is a pass rusher. That's why when we traded for Haley, we put him at DE in a 4-3 instead of OLB... those are the one's who rush the QB in a 4-3.

Most of the time, when we're in a 4-3, Ware will be at DE in passing situations, IMO. On running downs, Parcells won't have any problem with Ware at OLB... more size... why not. But 3rd and long? Ware will be at DE rushing the QB unless Bill wants to do it as some sort of a surprise.

You might could be like Nors and see him rush from an OLB position a few times during the season and say you're right... but Ware won't be doing that with any regularity.

They weren't sent after the QB because there wasn't anyone capable of consistently rushing the QB from an outside LB position.

I am pretty sure it can be done.

 

[joseephuss]

They weren't sent after the QB because there wasn't anyone capable of consistently rushing the QB from an outside LB position.

I am pretty sure it can be done.

Sure it can be done, but as the start of the thread made it out, do you really want Ware playing OLB in a 4-3 and blitzing occasionly. Or do you want him at OLB in the 3-4 and DE in the 4-3 where he has more opportunities to get to the Qb? Of course we are all setting our expections high of him being succesfull no matter where he lines up. I know I am and I hope he meets those expectations.

 

[junk]

Sure it can be done, but as the start of the thread made it out, do you really want Ware playing OLB in a 4-3 and blitzing occasionly. Or do you want him at OLB in the 3-4 and DE in the 4-3 where he has more opportunities to get to the Qb? Of course we are all setting our expections high of him being succesfull no matter where he lines up. I know I am and I hope he meets those expectations.

I agree with that. You do want him in a position to make plays. However, you can do that from a 4-3 OLB position as well.

I don't expect there to be as many 4-3 looks so I am alright with him blitzing occasionally in those looks. You can't blitz a guy from a 3-4 OLB position or a 4-3 OLB position every time.

He is going to have to have some coverage responsibilities as well and from most accounts, it sounds like he is pretty good at it.

 

[blindzebra]

Of course I've heard of the blitz. Isn't it served at IHOP?

How often have you seen our OLB's in the 4-3 sent after the QB? And that's when we played the 4-3 all the time (except for nickel, etc.) You know as well as I do that if Ware plays much 4-3 OLB that his chances to rush the QB will be minimal.

That's why we never used a first round pick on an OLB before Ware... or at least why it had been a couple of decades since we did. Because those guys make tackles and cover backs and tight ends. They aren't asked to go after the QB with any regularity.

Blind, you're saying he can blitz in a 4-3, which he can... but you know how seldom that happens. Ware is a pass rusher. That's why when we traded for Haley, we put him at DE in a 4-3 instead of OLB... those are the one's who rush the QB in a 4-3.

Most of the time, when we're in a 4-3, Ware will be at DE in passing situations, IMO. On running downs, Parcells won't have any problem with Ware at OLB... more size... why not. But 3rd and long? Ware will be at DE rushing the QB unless Bill wants to do it as some sort of a surprise.

You might could be like Nors and see him rush from an OLB position a few times during the season and say you're right... but Ware won't be doing that with any regularity.

When did we have a player at OLB who could get there on a blitz in our old 4-3?

You are using Nors-logic and it's got a major flaw. Change occurs whether or not it's a 3-4 or 4-3, because we have better players.

Parcells has said several times in the last week or two, he's not sure how much 4-3/3-4 we are going to run...and here is the critical part...but I want to get my best players out there the majority of the time.

There is no question that Glover and Ellis are among his best players, and both will play along with Ware in a 4 man front in nickle.

Glover can play some at NT, but he is best in a 4 man front which means more 4-3 than some care to admit.

Parcells said today that Ware will play OLB in the 4-3 some of the time, and if his goal is to get the best 11 out there together, he will have to.

 

[AsthmaField]

They weren't sent after the QB because there wasn't anyone capable of consistently rushing the QB from an outside LB position.

I am pretty sure it can be done.

But will it? I agree with you in principle, junk. But look around the league. How many OLB's in a 4-3 are making many sacks? Look up last year's sack leaders if you wish. I'll bet not many are 4-3 OLB's. They're all DE's.

I know Coakley couldn't pressure the passer much... and Singleton? No. Darren Smith, Dixon Edwards, Randall Godfrey? Maybe none of them either. But I think you're wrong if you say the only reason we didn't send our OLB's after the QB very often is because they weren't good pass rushers. We didn't send them because that isn't what that position in that scheme calls for.

And if that isn't correct, why are there no 4-3 teams with any OLB's with any appreciable sack totals? Why do all of the DE's have all the sacks? Are teams just that unlucky to always pick crappy pass rushers as 4-3 OLB's? Or are they putting the good pass rushers at DE because that's the smart place to play them? Because the OLB doesn't call for that type of athlete?

 

[AsthmaField]

When did we have a player at OLB who could get there on a blitz in our old 4-3?

You are using Nors-logic and it's got a major flaw. Change occurs whether or not it's a 3-4 or 4-3, because we have better players.

Parcells has said several times in the last week or two, he's not sure how much 4-3/3-4 we are going to run...and here is the critical part...but I want to get my best players out there the majority of the time.

There is no question that Glover and Ellis are among his best players, and both will play along with Ware in a 4 man front in nickle.

Glover can play some at NT, but he is best in a 4 man front which means more 4-3 than some care to admit.

Parcells said today that Ware will play OLB in the 4-3 some of the time, and if his goal is to get the best 11 out there together, he will have to.

Most of that argument has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Most of that, we agree on.

And you just had to call me Nors because I call you Nors. :

As for you thinking we didn't have an OLB with high sack totals because we didn't have one who could rush the passer... see my response to junk, above.

Parcells may play Ware at OLB in a 4-3... but it will limit his ability to sack the QB.

 

[junk]

But will it? I agree with you in principle, junk. But look around the league. How many OLB's in a 4-3 are making many sacks? Look up last year's sack leaders if you wish. I'll bet not many are 4-3 OLB's. They're all DE's.

I know Coakley couldn't pressure the passer much... and Singleton? No. Darren Smith, Dixon Edwards, Randall Godfrey? Maybe none of them either. But I think you're wrong if you say the only reason we didn't send our OLB's after the QB very often is because they weren't good pass rushers. We didn't send them because that isn't what that position in that scheme calls for.

And if that isn't correct, why are there no 4-3 teams with any OLB's with any appreciable sack totals? Why do all of the DE's have all the sacks? Are teams just that unlucky to always pick crappy pass rushers as 4-3 OLB's? Or are they putting the good pass rushers at DE because that's the smart place to play them? Because the OLB doesn't call for that type of athlete?

And I am not advocating a full time move there by any stretch either. Occasional looks and occasional blitzes. I think he could do it and be successful.

I really like Ware as a 4-3 end myself. Thats how he made his mark in college.

 

[AsthmaField]

And I am not advocating a full time move there by any stretch either. Occasional looks and occasional blitzes. I think he could do it and be successful.

I really like Ware as a 4-3 end myself. Thats how he made his mark in college.

Then we are in agreement.

Just like me to pick a fight with two of the charter members of the board. Sheesh.

 

[blindzebra]

Most of that argument has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Most of that, we agree on.

And you just had to call me Nors because I call you Nors. :

As for you thinking we didn't have an OLB with high sack totals because we didn't have one who could rush the passer... see my response to junk, above.

Parcells may play Ware at OLB in a 4-3... but it will limit his ability to sack the QB.

I used the Nors-logic line because that is what he says in his 3-4 mantra, he always compares it to the OLD 4-3, without factoring in the players we have added will change both schemes.

Keep in mind that nickel will be at least a third of the snaps and the most likely time a pass will occur. Ware will be at DE in the 4 man front of our nickel defense.

Depending on match ups, down and distance we will go either 3-4 or 4-3 the rest of the time. So him at OLB in a 4-3 will not greatly impact his pass rush, in fact the element of surprise could help it.

 

[AsthmaField]

I used the Nors-logic line because that is what he says in his 3-4 mantra, he always compares it to the OLD 4-3, without factoring in the players we have added will change both schemes.

Keep in mind that nickel will be at least a third of the snaps and the most likely time a pass will occur. Ware will be at DE in the 4 man front of our nickel defense.

Depending on match ups, down and distance we will go either 3-4 or 4-3 the rest of the time. So him at OLB in a 4-3 will not greatly impact his pass rush, in fact the element of surprise could help it.

I think you may feel like I'm arguing against a 4-3. That isn't the case. Just because I like the 3-4 doesn't mean that I don't like the 4-3... and I agree with the "get the best players on the field" line of thinking. Who wouldn't?

I'm just saying that as 4-3 OLB in the base 4-3, his pass rushing opportunities will be limited. However, We're in agreement that in the nickel, Ware will be at DE, and that's going to be most of the passing downs... so this whole argument is probably moot anyway.

 

[blindzebra]

I think you may feel like I'm arguing against a 4-3. That isn't the case. Just because I like the 3-4 doesn't mean that I don't like the 4-3... and I agree with the "get the best players on the field" line of thinking. Who wouldn't?

I'm just saying that as 4-3 OLB in the base 4-3, his pass rushing opportunities will be limited. However, We're in agreement that in the nickel, Ware will be at DE, and that's going to be most of the passing downs... so this whole argument is probably moot anyway.

Actually when all is said in done it may end up 40% nickel/dime, 30% 3-4, 30% 4-3.

The times he was at OLB in the 4-3 were in short yardage against AZ.

I think who we are playing will dictate what we run a lot. There will likely be games where we play very little 4-3 and others little 3-4.

Also keep in mind that in a 3-4 teams will key on him as a pass rusher and do things to disrupt the rush. AZ flipped their TE to his side for example.

In a 4-3 he can blitz wide, we can over shift away from him and he can come between the G and OT, we can zone blitz, we can shift into a 5 man line, and we can stunt or twist.

I'm not trying to make this a 3-4 versus 4-3 debate, I'm just disagreeing that Ware playing some 4-3 OLB will hurt his pass rushing ability.

 

[50cent]

He is not going to be rushing the passer every play from 3-4 OLB either, and here is why. Teams will start bringing a TE over, sending someone in motion, running a back out on his side.

AZ flipped their TE a lot, infact on the TD fluke play where Ware hit Warner Ware jammed and released the TE, which was the main reason he got there a bit late.

FYI, Parcells said in his PC that Ware will play both DE and OLB in the 4-3.

To correct you BZ, BP never Stated the 4-3 in todays PC, he always refers to the 4 man front. Whether people like it or understand it, every 3-4 team use a 4 man front. One OLB rushes the passer along with the 3 DL, the other drops into coverage. When Ware drops into a down stance, it just makes it more obvious that he is the OLB rushing the passer (DE). When he drops into coverage, he then is refered to a OLB. Not once during the AZ game did I see Ware off the line in a natural OLB position. He was either on the line or slightly off the line ready to drop in coverage as a 3-4 OLB. Although once again, BP never said we used the 4-3 defense, he simly stated that Ware can play the DE or OLB in a 4 man front.

 

[smashmouth]

I could see BP using a 3-4 and on pre-snap lining up both olb'rs on the line. Then in pre-snap I could see them adjust the formation and Ware putting his hand down on the ground and the other olb backing up in to a 4 3 alignment.
This way, we are so versatile you don't know how we're coming or where we're coming from. In a blink of an eye, we could go from a 4-3 formation straight into a 3-4 alignment simply because of Ware and his ability to put a hand down, or back into coverage.
Ware is the single most important part of this entire thing. (PRAY HE STAYS HEALTHY)

 

[blindzebra]

To correct you BZ, BP never Stated the 4-3 in todays PC, he always refers to the 4 man front. Whether people like it or understand it, every 3-4 team use a 4 man front. One OLB rushes the passer along with the 3 DL, the other drops into coverage. When Ware drops into a down stance, it just makes it more obvious that he is the OLB rushing the passer (DE). When he drops into coverage, he then is refered to a OLB. Not once during the AZ game did I see Ware off the line in a natural OLB position. He was either on the line or slightly off the line ready to drop in coverage as a 3-4 OLB. Although once again, BP never said we used the 4-3 defense, he simly stated that Ware can play the DE or OLB in a 4 man front.

Wrong, completely wrong.

He was at OLB in a 4-3 in short yardage in the AZ game.

Parcells said in his PC, when asked about Ware playing OLB IN THE 4-3, that yes Ware WILL PLAY SOME OLB IN THE 4-3.

Next time you "correct" someone, I suggest you know what you are talking about.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

Wrong, completely wrong.

He was at OLB in a 4-3 in short yardage in the AZ game.

Parcells said in his PC, when asked about Ware playing OLB IN THE 4-3, that yes Ware WILL PLAY SOME OLB IN THE 4-3.

Next time you "correct" someone, I suggest you know what you are talking about.

They're going to line him up all over the place it looks like ... I saw him play some DE last game too ... wasn't pretty, but he was double teamed a lot ...

Should be interesting to see if they can pull off with this player what they think they can ...

 

[50cent]

Wrong, completely wrong.

He was at OLB in a 4-3 in short yardage in the AZ game.

Parcells said in his PC, when asked about Ware playing OLB IN THE 4-3, that yes Ware WILL PLAY SOME OLB IN THE 4-3.

Next time you "correct" someone, I suggest you know what you are talking about.

Spags ask BP specifically asked him about the 4 man front, not 4-3. There is a difference. He then goes on to say in an undershift he will play the DE and in a overshift he will play the OLB. He never mentions the 4-3, just 4 man front. Even more, if you listened to his PC the other day, his 4 man fronts are played with the 3-4 principle. Correct yourself again and go back and listen to the PC. Around the 9:45 mark it. I just thought you should know this!

 

[50cent]

I could see BP using a 3-4 and on pre-snap lining up both olb'rs on the line. Then in pre-snap I could see them adjust the formation and Ware putting his hand down on the ground and the other olb backing up in to a 4 3 alignment.
This way, we are so versatile you don't know how we're coming or where we're coming from. In a blink of an eye, we could go from a 4-3 formation straight into a 3-4 alignment simply because of Ware and his ability to put a hand down, or back into coverage.
Ware is the single most important part of this entire thing. (PRAY HE STAYS HEALTHY)

This is the exact reason BP stated that he likes 3-4, because at no time will the offense know which OLB will pass rush. So in turn, Ware is always a DE/OLB. I don't know why people don't get this concept.

 

[blindzebra]

Spags ask BP specifically asked him about the 4 man front, not 4-3. There is a difference. He then goes on to say in an undershift he will play the DE and in a overshift he will play the OLB. He never mentions the 4-3, just 4 man front. Even more, if you listened to his PC the other day, his 4 man fronts are played with the 3-4 principle. Correct yourself again and go back and listen to the PC. Around the 9:45 mark it. I just thought you should know this!

I did miss hear it, but Mick said 4 man front in the base not nickel, that is a big difference. So if we have 4 man on the DL and Ware is one of 3 LBs what is it?

And this does not change the fact that Ware did play OLB when we were in the 4-3 short yardage against AZ. Look at the line up on 4th in 1 in the first quarter.