Shorter passes is that the answer in 2023?

[RonnieT24]

Dak doesn't read the D quickly enough to count on shorter passes.

I think as a blanket statement this is inaccurate. Some defenses he deciphers instantly and we see it, other DCs do a better job of disguising and cause him to hold the ball longer. And lest we forget sometimes the QB is waiting for the WR to read the defense and get to the correct spot as well. There's a lotta moving parts and blaming it all on the QB is the stuff of softheads. A group of which I know you are not a member. There is nuance to this thing. Dak and Moore were smarter than most DCs .. but not all of them. Hopefully with Big Mac's help Dak can pass up a few more DCs. But there's always going to be DCs who come up with good stuff to stop you no matter how good you are. See Brady's 3 INT second half against the Packers two years ago. Or Mahomes' horrid performance in the Super Bowl that same year.

The goal should not be to get a QB who can outthink the DC every game.. cause you can't ever get there. The goal has to be to get our QB to the point where he can outthink the majority of them then in the games where the DC is more clever than the QB, the OC has to step in and put his imprint on the chess match. I have always been clear that I don't think Moore's offensive philosophy held up against better DCs.. and unfortunately Dak has not been good enough to consistently rise above that. He has done so on occasion.. Lighting up Belichick for 450 yards and 4 TDs or absolutely strafing Todd Bowles' defense a couple of weeks ago for instance but he can't do that every week. No one can. I am anxious to see what McCarthy and Schottenheimer do for Dak. Does he elevate with them or continue the roller coaster ride that crashes at the end of the ride every season.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

Exactly. I'd rather Dak just try to hit a WR in stride down the field and hope for the best, over his panic-induced quick shorts.

We need an OC that can devise a panic friendly scheme.

 

[HungryLion]

DAL will need RBs that can catch.

And RB’s that can run

 

[Coogiguy03]

Dak doesn't read the D quickly enough to count on shorter passes.

Which means passes will be thrown behind guys! I think the easier throws for him are guys that are right in front of him like a Shultz

 

[Coogiguy03]

I think people confuse "West Coast Offense" with "short passes" when in reality, it's about quick throws more so than short passes.

Imagine being a defense knowing that the receivers could catch the ball running posts or slants early so you cannot sit 10-15 yards off the line of scrimmage like you could against Kellen Moore.

The WCO also includes passes down the field though which makes it harder on defenses because they have to protect the short and long passing game.

For me personally, I treat the WCO like play-action for receivers.

If you throw and complete enough quick passes, it ultimately makes the defensive secondary move closer to the line which makes them susceptible to long throws when set up and timed properly.

Seems like what Peyton Manning did for years

 

[kskboys]

Short passes sound like pick 6's to me. Especially since Dak will be late on the read.

That's why not just any QB can do the short passing game. Misreads are often pick 6s.

 

[atlantacowboy]

Making the box smaller isn't going to help prescott. We need more deep throws to open up some space and make teams keep their safeties back.

 

[kskboys]

Which means passes will be thrown behind guys! I think the easier throws for him are guys that are right in front of him like a Shultz

No, it means a pick if he doesn't see the S/LB.

 

[kskboys]

Yeah but our defense stunk for the most part those years. People get caught up in their ranking but forget that we led the league in time of possession those years and enabled the defense to only have to play like 40% of the game. We a few good players on those defenses but overall they were average at best and Rodgers had his way with them.

Especially after Brown/Lewis went down.

We desperately needed our 2nd round pick to be able to play in his 2nd year.

 

[charron]

It will be interesting to see how they utilize these skill players. It's not just short passes but the type of routes these guys will need to run is completely different than normal. I'd imagine this goes in the defenses favor having the majority of the defenders closer to the LOS and taking their chances that dak takes less long shots than in previous years.

 

[kskboys]

I think as a blanket statement this is inaccurate. Some defenses he deciphers instantly and we see it, other DCs do a better job of disguising and cause him to hold the ball longer. And lest we forget sometimes the QB is waiting for the WR to read the defense and get to the correct spot as well. There's a lotta moving parts and blaming it all on the QB is the stuff of softheads. A group of which I know you are not a member. There is nuance to this thing. Dak and Moore were smarter than most DCs .. but not all of them. Hopefully with Big Mac's help Dak can pass up a few more DCs. But there's always going to be DCs who come up with good stuff to stop you no matter how good you are. See Brady's 3 INT second half against the Packers two years ago. Or Mahomes' horrid performance in the Super Bowl that same year.

The goal should not be to get a QB who can outthink the DC every game.. cause you can't ever get there. The goal has to be to get our QB to the point where he can outthink the majority of them then in the games where the DC is more clever than the QB, the OC has to step in and put his imprint on the chess match. I have always been clear that I don't think Moore's offensive philosophy held up against better DCs.. and unfortunately Dak has not been good enough to consistently rise above that. He has done so on occasion.. Lighting up Belichick for 450 yards and 4 TDs or absolutely strafing Todd Bowles' defense a couple of weeks ago for instance but he can't do that every week. No one can. I am anxious to see what McCarthy and Schottenheimer do for Dak. Does he elevate with them or continue the roller coaster ride that crashes at the end of the ride every season.

Disagree. I've seen a lot of evidence.

It's going to be interesting to see how Dak performs w/ a different OC.

 

[Typhus]

Yes we will be in a different offense, the word around town is it'll be shorter quick passes. Away from the long developing routes I can smile but hold on!!! Are we really going to keep it short, and continue to not test the defense deep to keep them honest? I don't the one per game deep shot to TY HILTON like we did several games this past season.

Short passes in this offense to me says a lot of passes to our TE's, if we re-sign Shultz he may lead the league with 200 catches for 987 yards!! What would be the point of bringing in a big name to sit and watch a TE be the focal point of our QB?


Really hope we go with quicker guys that can get open. This HAS to be the focus this off season, if so I'm excited!!! Please give your thoughts

Not entirely, but WCO defines shorter routes, allowing the QB multiple targets with a quicker release option.

That was Bill Walsh design initially and a genius design, like a boxer jabbing in early rounds to feel out his opponent and gain an understanding of his opponents weakness.

WCO is best suited for a QB like Dak, should have been for our offense from day one with Dak but this FO office is a very slow reactionary group.

It is the perfect fit and actually last option now, but as hard and critical that I have been on Dak, this is the design scheme that is tailor fit for Dak, always has been.

What this offense needs to draft is RB, FB, WRs that fit this scheme.

Defense will be back shelfed in this draft unfortunately.

This FO will prioritize going all in on offensive pieces that fits what MM wants/has to do in order to advance this stumbling Dak lead offense and implementation of key offensive additions weighs heavy on McClay and his dept in order to bring them in either through draft or FA, both are crucial if this scheme is going to fit and be effective.

Lot of moving parts in a WCO guys, and why we have shied away from it, there are a lot of moving parts in WCO required to be effective, play action, backfield motions, all of which require extreme discipline in order to execute or the yellow flags start flying and a big reason why MM has been hesitant in employing the WCO scheme IMO, but now he has finally come to the conclusion that it is WCO or bust with the QB he has to work with.

IF Dak cannot run a quick release WCO then we have officially come to the end of the road with Dak, there is basically no other option left that can embrace and utilize the talent that Dak has left at this point.

If this scheme cannot save Dak in 2023 nothing is left and nothing will support his retention, and he will take down MM with him as a failure as well.

 

[Typhus]

Yes we will be in a different offense, the word around town is it'll be shorter quick passes. Away from the long developing routes I can smile but hold on!!! Are we really going to keep it short, and continue to not test the defense deep to keep them honest? I don't the one per game deep shot to TY HILTON like we did several games this past season.

Short passes in this offense to me says a lot of passes to our TE's, if we re-sign Shultz he may lead the league with 200 catches for 987 yards!! What would be the point of bringing in a big name to sit and watch a TE be the focal point of our QB?


Really hope we go with quicker guys that can get open. This HAS to be the focus this off season, if so I'm excited!!! Please give your thoughts

Of course the deep strikes will always be there even with this simple WCO scheme change, but football is basic, this is not complicated.
WCO sucks up the defense to defend, and then when you have a QB than can recognize the safeties leaning in you can hit them on a deep route.
Just doesnt have to be in desperation on 2nd and 2 yards in a deep zone like Dak forces... lol

 

[RonnieT24]

Disagree. I've seen a lot of evidence.

It's going to be interesting to see how Dak performs w/ a different OC.

The evidence says he has a passer rating over 100 in around half his games and even after this horrible last season still has one of the highest career completion percentages and lowest career INT percentages in league history. Those facts don't add up to a guy who "can't read defenses" or "reads defenses too slowly." Against most defenses he eats.. against upper echelon defenses he struggles. There's a reason why they call them "upper echelon defenses." It's about improving not only his recognition of the defense but his receivers doing the same. As good as CeeDee has been he has led the league in lining up with a perplexed look back at the QB before the snap three years running.

But truth be told as long as Moore was here good DCs were always going to have the upper hand against our offense because too much of it is predicated on what the defense shows pre-snap. We all know that good DCs are going to show you one thing pre-snap and then jump into something different once they hear your checks. We played right into the defense's hands time and again. Hopefully McCarthy will roll out some stuff that alleviates some of that.

 

[Ekspozed]

And ACTUALLY GET MORE THAN ONE YARD!! (Bye Zeke)

lol most times dak dumps off to a rb theres little room to go anywhere. he's been terrible throughout his career leading/hitting in stride especially to the running backs.

Zeke was never an elite pass catcher but its always a circus try at a catch every time its thrown to him.

With the slants flats system we'll be running, how do you feel about daks ability to hit/lead a receiver in stride?

 

[RonnieT24]

lol most times dak dumps off to a rb theres little room to go anywhere. he's been terrible throughout his career leading/hitting in stride especially to the running backs.

Zeke was never an elite pass catcher but its always a circus try at a catch every time its thrown to him.

With the slants flats system we'll be running, how do you feel about daks ability to hit/lead a receiver in stride?

The outlet pass to the RB remains the worst pass in Dak's arsenal. He's just not good at it so we would do well to just take that play out of the playbook and keep the backs in to block or have them leak into the middle of the field instead of to the sideline. I think Dak can hit targets just fine so I don't think he'll have much trouble with the WCO route concepts. Especially because the WCO also heavily features on the move throws with a lot of sprint outs and half rolls.. which he is absolutely fabulous at. They have all offseason to get him calibrated to throwing to the landmarks in the WCO passing tree. It's gonna be fun to see how it progresses. Hopefully they don't completely overhaul the offense because nothing sets a QB back like having to learn a whole new offense. Better to add some new stuff and scrap some of the old stuff while keeping the terminology the same or similar.

 

[Aven8]

Yeah but our defense stunk for the most part those years. People get caught up in their ranking but forget that we led the league in time of possession those years and enabled the defense to only have to play like 40% of the game. We a few good players on those defenses but overall they were average at best and Rodgers had his way with them.

Oh no doubt. Our D was awful. Had we had this current defense with either of those teams we might have been talking About a rookie winning the SB…..

 

[RonnieT24]

Oh no doubt. Our D was awful. Had we had this current defense with either of those teams we might have been talking About a rookie winning the SB…..

Yeah and this defense with that 2014 running game would have smothered Rodgers and crew and most assuredly would have been able to go back to Seattle and punk the Seahawks a second time. Those teams were a good defense away from championship caliber. This current team is better than a good defense. It's borderline great. If McCarthy can build a playoff level offense to pair with it instead Moore's stat padding chump buster offense we could be looking at a 3-4 year window as legit contenders. Maybe longer if Stephen loosens up the purse strings so we can add higher quality free agents every offseason as guys jump off our ship in search of paydays while guys from other teams want to come here in search of rings!

 

[CowboyoWales]

DAL will need RBs that can catch.

.....and a QB that can throw

 

[Whirlwin]

Yes we will be in a different offense, the word around town is it'll be shorter quick passes. Away from the long developing routes I can smile but hold on!!! Are we really going to keep it short, and continue to not test the defense deep to keep them honest? I don't the one per game deep shot to TY HILTON like we did several games this past season.

Short passes in this offense to me says a lot of passes to our TE's, if we re-sign Shultz he may lead the league with 200 catches for 987 yards!! What would be the point of bringing in a big name to sit and watch a TE be the focal point of our QB?


Really hope we go with quicker guys that can get open. This HAS to be the focus this off season, if so I'm excited!!! Please give your thoughts

Dink and dunk, was the winning formula with Prescott. Everyone wanted to open it up methodical control the ball wins football games. 400 yard passing games, you usually lose.