Skins are SB Bound... Havent u heard?

[kapolani]

If you really want to know if the term is offensive, ask some Indians. They will either say "yes" or "no" and you'll have your answer (there's nothing like real data to settle an argument . It doesn't matter much what white people think is offensive or not: it matters what Indians think.

This.

You can get degrees from the most prestigeuos schools and do research for decades.

But, until your people were hung from trees or maimed and tortured because you didn't want to give up your people's land, you cannot claim crap because you did a simple poll.

I find the name Commander offensive and I'm not even a Native American Indian.

 

[kapolani]

I always wanted to be an "Commander" when we played cowboys and indians.

The difference was - you were playing make believe. If you were a 'Commander' back in that time period you were fighting for your way of life, your land, and for your people.

Hollywood made it seem like the white man was doing some noble thing 'conquering' the savages.

 

[Rynie]

Damn...10 days later and ya'll are still arguing about racism. I think we need a football game soon to intervene....lol.

I still love ya'll (not the Commanders fans...ya'll can burn in hell).

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Hmm.

I wonder if this is going to be ignored or not?




Can you provide links to your 3rd, 4th and 5th boxes please? I'd like to read the entire articles those are from as well.

Thanks








Interesting how the SI Poll is mentioned.

Can you provide links to your 3rd, 4th and 5th boxes please? I'd like to read the entire articles those are from as well.

Thanks

 

[urface59]

Yo maybe you should change your sig lol.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Yo maybe you should change your sig lol.

It is one of those "ironic" things. Look at some threads in this forum a from a few months ago and you'll get it

 

[Vtwin]

The difference was - you were playing make believe. If you were a 'Commander' back in that time period you were fighting for your way of life, your land, and for your people.

Hollywood made it seem like the white man was doing some noble thing 'conquering' the savages.

Calm down. I wanted to be a Commander because I admired them based on the view I had of them from what I had learned at that young age.

The whole "whose land is it" argument is way beyond the scope of this discussion and really has nothing to do with the topic. Both sides were guilty of some horrible actions against their enemies. I don't live in Hollywood, never have. I live in an area where there are many many native americans from the Six Nations and the Abnaki. I got Hollywood's side but I also got the other side. I'm no expert but I'm not delusional either.

 

[Vtwin]

The answer is in the question. They chose it because at that time there was not PC pressure on them not to use a derogatory name. Look no further than Hollywood for examples of the negative portrayal of Native Americans in general. It wasn't until around the 1960's that some actors and directors began to tell things from the Indian perspective now and then.

There was not PC pressure because it wasn't considered to be a derogatory term by most. One of the most vivid memories I have of Native Americans on TV was the image of the old Indian with the tear rolling down his cheek as part of the clean-up the country campaign. I saw that as an honorable representation of Native Americans. Movies mostly portrayed the Indians as fierce, strong, loyal warriors. Sure they lost all the time but they contributed to my respect and admiration for the Indians.

Let's not forget that it took public pressure to remove the N word from being an acceptable racial descriptor in this country. That is all this is. A call to do what is right. The word Commander is exactly the same as calling a Black man a ******. There is no difference.

Well that's your opinion. I see it differently. The fact that there is very little public pressure outside the Indian activist circles is telling. The average Joe doesn't care because he doesn't think it carries the same connotations as the n word. If I had called someone the n word in 1970 my father would have kicked my arse. I'm told I have a bit of Iroquois mixed in with my french canadian and scottish roots. I used to tell anyone who would listen that I was a Commander. Some of the real Native Americans in the circle would tease me that I wasn't a real Commander like them.

You admit the mascot name would not have public approval today. That should be a huge clue that it is lacking in good taste to use it.

I don't admit that. I think if were decided by simple vote it could pass. The vocal minority is in a position today to make on hell of a big stink and it would take serious nads to be willing to put up with that. It's only been a few years since a local HS team was forced by the school admin. to change it name from the Little Indians inspite of majority support to keep the name. It was big bruhaha inthe papers and generated tons of discussion.

Lastly, the use of the symbol as a source of pride. I partially agree with this. I believe that is why some Native Americans vote that they are not offended as well as the reason I stated earlier. They see someone trying to use the mascot as a means to win. I understand that. I always have.

If you hear it from me you can be sure it is meant to be respectful.

Let me throw out a few expansion team names for you to consider.

The Hollywood Hebrews
The Nashville ******s
The Tucson Mexicans
The Las Vegas Honkeys

Would any of them fly? There's no difference. Not one single shred of difference. These teams would fight just like the Commanders do to show a sense of civic pride. It just isn't a good enough excuse to keep the name and it isn't a reason to keep it at all.

In all seriousness the only one on that list that I wouldn't use is the Nashville ******s. If the team existed and they needed an old slow guy like me I would be proud to play for them though.

The bottom line is, there are people offended. I cannot in good conscience say that their feelings do not matter or that they should simply shut up and accept the fact that it is not going to change. If you can, good for you I suppose.

Yes, there are people offended. There are people offended every day about a lot of things. I could get offended about something a dozen times a day if I put my mind to it. The bottom line for me, (and my original point) is that WE need to quit looking for reasons to get offended and simply try and take things in the spirit they are intended to be taken in. Just because someone is offended by a term doesn't mean the term was intended to be offensive. It's just a name.

Lastly, it is a well known fact that George Preston Marshall was a racist. Even knowledgeable Commanders fans are not denying this. Isn't it the least bit likely that his choice of this particular mascot name really was more evidence of his racist mores? If not, please explain to me why they went from Braves to Commanders when they moved across Boston yet kept Commanders when they moved from Boston to Washington, DC.

If the name was indeed a tribute to Sonny Dietz as the revisionist History claims, why was he already using a Native American mascot before Dietz was even hired and why did he keep it long after Dietz was gone?

I don't know enough about this to comment other then to say there seems to be some consensus that the revisionist history is accurate. I don't know who to believe.

It's time to cowboy up and admit the truth. The name is offensive.

I understand how some could view it as offensive. In the all the years I have been using it it has never been intended to be offensive. Quite the opposite.


Labor Day weekend I am attending a pig roast at a friends who is a Mohawk Indian. It is a family thing and there will be many of his family there. There will also be a lot of local folks who are proud of their Abnaki heritage.

I'll get the thoughts on this from that crew and report back.

 

[Hostile]

There was not PC pressure because it wasn't considered to be a derogatory term by most.

Think about what you are saying here, because it supports my stance. The mascot name was chosen because civil rights movements were not in place. No one was fighting these types of movements. They are now.

 

[Vtwin]

Think about what you are saying here, because it supports my stance. The mascot name was chosen because civil rights movements were not in place. No one was fighting these types of movements. They are now.

I don't think I am making my point clear.

Yes, there would be a loud and robust outcry in todays world. From a small minority of the population who can take advantage of the technology that can get the message out in minutes to millions. If put to a simple majority rules vote the majority would likely show that it is acceptable in their view.

Let's switch it up a bit. Suppose instead of "Commanders" they picked the Washington N words.

That may have even flown in 1930. It sure as hell would have been changed a long time ago by demand of the vast majority of the American public.

That right there tells me that the term Commanders is viewed as not derogatory by the majority. If it carried anywhere near the meaning of the n word the public would be demanding a change, me included.

But anyway.... you have your opinion and I have mine. I am anxious to discuss this with the Commanders I personally know.

And please don't take my comments to mean that I don't hate the Washington Commanders with every ounce of my football conscience.

 

[Hostile]

I don't think I am making my point clear.

Yes, there would be a loud and robust outcry in todays world. From a small minority of the population who can take advantage of the technology that can get the message out in minutes to millions. If put to a simple majority rules vote the majority would likely show that it is acceptable in their view.

Let's switch it up a bit. Suppose instead of "Commanders" they picked the Washington N words.

That may have even flown in 1930. It sure as hell would have been changed a long time ago by demand of the vast majority of the American public.

That right there tells me that the term Commanders is viewed as not derogatory by the majority. If it carried anywhere near the meaning of the n word the public would be demanding a change, me included.

But anyway.... you have your opinion and I have mine. I am anxious to discuss this with the Commanders I personally know.

And please don't take my comments to mean that I don't hate the Washington Commanders with every ounce of my football conscience.

I do not think there would be a small minority of the people in today's world if we hadn't let this word go for so long. This word is every bit as offensive as other racial monikers. It is a pejorative. An insult. A put down.

It was allowed in the 1930's because we were still a very racial nation in those days. In some ways we still are but we are progressing. Keeping this mascot name is a form of regression.

It should have been done away with a long time ago, but as I said, Native Americans are a very silent group as a whole. They would rather be insulted than to cause a stir. There are exceptions and these people are finally speaking out. If you get to know some of these people as well as I have and you ask them about the word they do open up and tell you that the word is offensive. That someone walking up to them and calling them that would be offensive.

When are we going to listen to those voices? When will they matter to us?

These people are not going out of their way to be offended. They have absorbed the abuse of this word for more than a century.

I won't deny that the mascot use by such a famous team has dulled the public perception of the word. That doesn't make it right. It is no different than the N word. It is a descriptor of someone based upon their skin color. There is no other way to spin that.

 

[Hostile]

A follow up from my friend who is a college Professor. Not shocking, he knows Mr. Goddard.

"I do think that it's important for you to point out that Goddard himself considers the term disparaging, as evidenced by the last sentence of his article, and that his article should not be construed as permission to call Indians Commanders."

 

[Joe Realist]

Hos, I see your disdain for the Commanders. The team I hate the most is the Eagles, so I would rather have the Skins beat them, plus it would make great radio in Philly if Mcnabb comes back to win.

 

[Joe Realist]

This.

You can get degrees from the most prestigeuos schools and do research for decades.

But, until your people were hung from trees or maimed and tortured because you didn't want to give up your people's land, you cannot claim crap because you did a simple poll.

I find the name Commander offensive and I'm not even a Native American Indian.

this pretty much says it al

 

[Vtwin]

this pretty much says it al

Savagery existed long before Europeans landed on these shores. Yes, Native Americans have plenty of reasons to be angry but let’s keep it real. They warred among themselves before “we” showed up and the tactics they often used to intimidate their enemies would certainly not be approved by the Geneva Convention.

 

[Vtwin]

I do not think there would be a small minority of the people in today's world if we hadn't let this word go for so long. This word is every bit as offensive as other racial monikers. It is a pejorative. An insult. A put down.

It was allowed in the 1930's because we were still a very racial nation in those days. In some ways we still are but we are progressing. Keeping this mascot name is a form of regression.

It should have been done away with a long time ago, but as I said, Native Americans are a very silent group as a whole. They would rather be insulted than to cause a stir. There are exceptions and these people are finally speaking out. If you get to know some of these people as well as I have and you ask them about the word they do open up and tell you that the word is offensive. That someone walking up to them and calling them that would be offensive.

When are we going to listen to those voices? When will they matter to us?

These people are not going out of their way to be offended. They have absorbed the abuse of this word for more than a century.

I won't deny that the mascot use by such a famous team has dulled the public perception of the word. That doesn't make it right. It is no different than the N word. It is a descriptor of someone based upon their skin color. There is no other way to spin that.

I don't doubt your experience Hos.

I have to go by my own though. The northeast has a large population of Native Americans. The town I live in is considered the homeland of a set of the Abnaki Tribe. There are multiple reservations within a couple hundred miles off me. I can only go by my personal experience, apporaching 5 decades worth.

I would never use the term to someone I knew found it derogatory. I just don't know anyone that does.

 

[Hostile]

Hos, I see your disdain for the Commanders. The team I hate the most is the Eagles, so I would rather have the Skins beat them, plus it would make great radio in Philly if Mcnabb comes back to win.

I will openly admit it, their blatant racism is the reason why I hate them above any other sports team. I do not respect, condone, or rationalize anything about their past because of the racism. It is completely unpalatable to me. I could not be a Commanders fan even if my son played for them.

God bless Ernie Davis.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I will openly admit it, their blatant racism is the reason why I hate them above any other sports team. I do not respect, condone, or rationalize anything about their past because of the racism. It is completely unpalatable to me. I could not be a Commanders fan even if my son played for them.

God bless Ernie Davis.

Please, no father would cheer for his son's team to lose.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

This society is going straight into the gutter.

People just LOOKING for reasons to get upset.

Why on earth would any organization take a name for themselves which they thought to be a negative reference to an entire subset of the population?

Just the fact that teams have taken names referencing native americans and display these names and symbols PROUDLY when going into BATTLE should be perceived as an honor, not a slight.

I always wanted to be an "Commander" when we played cowboys and indians.

This is my take as well.

If people are so offended, they should certainly boycott, heck even stage protests encouraging others to boycott.

My problem is that most that take up this issue also support going the next step. Using government, or the force of courts to intervene, and in a free society, I find that far, far more offensive then any word could ever be.

 

[Hostile]

Please, no father would cheer for his son's team to lose.

Believe what you want.