Skins are SB Bound... Havent u heard?

Hostile

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Skinsmaniac;3501797 said:
Warning: to read the following post, you must be able to read at at least a ninth grade level. If you do not meet these requirements, please return to cowboyszone.com > Main Forums > Fan Zone > Has Any Rookie Ever Excited You As Much As Dez Bryant?

Why wouldn't you walk up to someone and call them a toad? The reason of course is that it would be offensive. Therefore the word "toad" can be offensive of inoffensive depending on context, such as intent. To simply label a word racist or not racist, offensive or inoffensive, is the kind of black-and-white thinking typical of a pre-adolescent.

To determine if the word "Commander" is offensive, it is necessary to look at the context of its use. So what is the context of the word "Commander." Surely it has changed in the past two-hundred years. If you overheard someone say "Commander" in a conversation, would you think they were making a derogatory remark about native americans, or talking about the football team in Washington? In my 29 years, I have never, not once, heard someone use the word "Commander" as an insult. I imagine that the ratio of times people use the word to refer to the football team compared to as an insult is at least 1,000,000 : 1. The fundamental meaning of the word has changed from being an insult (although it is not at all clear how prevalent the word was in 1932) to being the name of a football team.

Clearly, (again you should only have reached this point if you read at a ninth grade level) we can't outlaw every word that can be offensive in a certain context because every word can be offensive. I can call you a doorknob or a pillow and make it offensive. What is important is the intent of the person speaking. If the speaker does not intend to be offensive, then it is perfectly acceptable to disregard the sensitivities of those offended by him.

I am not minimizing the sad history of Native Americans in this country. I AM minimizing the sensitivities of those offended by the name Washington Commanders. No fan of the Washington Commanders intends to slander or offend a native American by the use of the word. Native Americans never cross my mind when I am talking about the Commanders. Joe Gibbs, Darrell Green, Sonny Jurgenson, and Art Monk are Commanders. The group of Native Americans in Hos' example are not.
I must gather from this that you do not have a 9th grade reading level.

If there were green people and the word "toad" was a pejorative about their skin color I would think you have a point. Since there are no green people and no one is called a toad, you don't.

Calling anyone a toad is likely to illicit a negative response because it is calling them a name.

Let's get down to brass tacks here. If I walk up to a big man and call him a giant, is he going to want to fight me? If I walk up to a man with long blond hair and call him a viking is he going to want to fight me? If I walk up to a man on a horse and call him a cowboy is he going to want to fight me?

But if I walk up to a black man and drop an N bomb? What if I walk up to a Hispanic man and call him a beaner?

Those are valid examples. Yours was not.

Good luck in the 10th grade next year.
 

Yakuza Rich

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There was a intramural basketball team that gave themselves the nickname 'The Flying White Trash' and had uniforms and everything and it caused a bit of a stir.

The 'toads' argument is beyond the point of dumb.






YR
 

SkinsHokieFan

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Hostile;3501790 said:
See, this is what I am talking about and why I will not provide you with polls. First of all, if I even remembered where I had seen them it might be different. Maybe they were Arizona specific. I am pretty sure one of them was when a Native American High School called their mascot the Fighting Whiteys to protest the practice of using pejoratives as a mascot name.

Well, if you are able to find them, I would love to see them

Hostile said:
I think the polls go too far because they ALWAYS ask about words other than Commanders. Braves, Warriors, Seminoles, etc. There is no thought that some may give a no vote because they don't see those words as offensive.

The SI article seems to be pretty specific with the team name Commanders

Asked if they were offended by the name Commanders, 75% of Native American respondents in SI's poll said they were not, and even on reservations, where Native American culture and influence are perhaps felt most intensely, 62% said they weren't offended. Overall, 69% of Native American respondents -- and 57% of those living on reservations -- feel it's O.K. for the Washington Commanders to continue using the name

Hostile said:
There is no doubt about the word Commander though.

Dictionary.com: –noun Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive a North American Indian. Origin: 1690–1700, Americanism
Merriam-Webster: Function: noun
Date: 1699 usually offensive

There are other examples of dictionaries (Oxford for example) that will call it an offensive word, but there is no need to post them all. Let's look up etymology or the origin of the word.

Etymology: "American Indian," 1690s. Red as the skin color of Native Americans is from 1580s; red man is from 1580s.

How interesting that the 2 dictionary versions I did use, both of which call it an offensive term have similar dates to the etymology. In other words, it is not some fabrication. There is actual research involved.

Are there studies out there that want to soften the word? Yes, of course there are. Just like the polls that throw in braves and warriors to soften them. Demographics of the polls also matter. The further away from the DC area you take the poll the more likely you are to find people who voted yes instead of no because they are not fans of the team. That is why I offer people to come to Arizona.

Good information. Now lets take a look at the PDF article I have posted in this thread.

First, who is it written by

Ives Goddard is Senior Linguist in the
Department of Anthropology, National Museum
of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.
His research has focused on the
Algonquian languages, especially Munsee,
Unami, Massachusett, and Meskwaki.

Seems to be pretty well regarded in this field.

As for your first point


Hostile said:
How interesting that the 2 dictionary versions I did use, both of which call it an offensive term have similar dates to the etymology. In other words, it is not some fabrication. There is actual research involved.

The conclusion of the article written is this

Cultural and Historical Factors
The spurious occurrence of Commander
with a date of 1699 has masked the
true history of the adoption of this
word into English, which has been further
obscured by the omission from
the standard dictionaries of citations
from James Fenimore Cooper, the
most important agent of its diffusion.
The word Commander reflects a genuine
Native American idiom that was used
in several languages, where it grew
out of an earlier established and more
widespread use of “red” and “white”
as racial labels. This terminology was
developed by Native Americans to
label categories of the new ethnic and
political reality they confronted with
the coming of the Europeans

So, 1699 may not be the actual origin.

Lets see what else is said in the research piece.

The court found that “the
TTAB’s finding of disparagement is
not supported by substantial evidence
and that “the doctrine of laches
precludes consideration of the
case.”1 One need not accept Harjo’s
unfounded claim that the word Commander
had its origins in the practice of presenting
bloody red skins and scalps
as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments
2 to accept that many find the
word objectionable in current use. But
the actual origin of the word is entirely
benign and reflects more positive
aspects of relations between Indians
and whites. It emerged at a specific
time in history among a small group of
men linked by joint activities that provided
the context that brought it forth.
Before its documented history can be
traced, however, the false history
given for it in standard reference
[books must be expunged
This isn't softening, clearly this is a study meant to correct errors that have seeped into the language.


[Red and White As Racial Terms
The only one of the linguistic oddities
in Samuel Smith’s letter that has made
it into the Oxford English Dictionary is
the expression “Red Skins” (and
attributive “Red Skin”), but in 1699,
[when the letter was purportedly written,
American Indians had, in fact, not
yet been racially characterized as red.



So it looks like a) the 1699 date is erroneous, and b) the first documented uses of the word Commander were by Native American chiefs.


And again, the conclusion


The spurious occurrence of Commander
with a date of 1699 has masked the
true history of the adoption of this
word into English, which has been further
obscured by the omission from[/FONT]
[the standard dictionaries of citations
from James Fenimore Cooper, the
most important agent of its diffusion.
The word Commander reflects a genuine
Native American idiom that was used
in several languages, where it grew
out of an earlier established and more
widespread use of “red” and “white
as racial labels. This terminology was
developed by Native Americans to
label categories of the new ethnic and
political reality they confronted with
[the coming of the Europeans.


What scholarly research is demonstrating here is that the 1699 origin of the word is erroneous and in fact the term Commander itself was a much more benign term, as opposed to the "scalped red skin" term that people wish to make it out to be.

There is lots more in this study, with tons of citations. I do suggest you take the time and read the whole thing, I learned quite a bit from it
 

DallasEast

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*** THREAD INTERMISSION SURVEY QUESTION ***​

"Which Washington D.C. based professional sports team owner
has been more progressive in team name recognition?"

A: Dan Snyder
Sticking with the demographically incorrect moniker of 'Commanders'​

OR​

B: Abe Pollin
Replaced 'Bullets' (and team logo) with 'Wizards' in response to gun related violence​

.
 

Hostile

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SkinsHokieFan;3501841 said:
What scholarly research is demonstrating here is that the 1699 origin of the word is erroneous and in fact the term Commander itself was a much more benign term, as opposed to the "scalped red skin" term that people wish to make it out to be.

There is lots more in this study, with tons of citations. I do suggest you take the time and read the whole thing, I learned quite a bit from it
I might one day be very interested in finding out who exactly Mr. Goddard is. I suspect he had an agenda here. The reason is quite simple, I know exactly who Ms. Harjo is that he quotes.

If you ask me to give more weight to his commentary than I do dictionaries, etymology and my own Historical research then I hate to disappoint you. I won't. If he had not mentioned Ms. Harjo at all, I might have. By mentioning her it becomes fairly clear to me that he was going to come to his conclusions regardless of what he found in his research. I applaud the effort to find a learned man to use as a reference, but his commentary carries almost no weight with me at all.

However, whether he did have an agenda or not it is interesting to note that he admits the word is a "racial label." That must be why so many people find it offensive?

Gasp!

I totally reject his conclusion that is benign. He would have you believe that at no time was the word ever offensive to anyone and Ms. Harjo, is indeed not offended and doesn't have people behind her who are offended either. That is after all what benign means in the sense he is using it. Non harmful.

I would invite Mr. Goddard to take the same test of coming with me so that he can call perfect strangers Commanders and prove the benign nature of the word.

Racial labels are benign? That is rich. I suppose Mr. Goddard would say that the N word is also benign since it is a racial label and originally meant someone from Nigeria.

I guess he knows nothing extermination orders where Native Americans were not only referred to as Commanders, but also savages, and red devils. How very sad.

Years ago when I was in school at the University of Arizona I was in a creative non fiction writing class. There was a lovely girl in one of my classes who was from the Souix Nation of South Dakota. I mean she was quite stunning to look at. Long raven black hair, amazing figure, and a very pretty face. She was also an amazing writer.

I bring her up because I remember a paper she wrote in this class. I remember it quite well because it was so well done. Her family was traveling and they stopped at a restaurant in Montana to eat. Another customer caused a scene when he threw a fit because he didn't want to sit next to a bunch of Commanders.

Bernadette (not the name of my fellow student) remembered it as the first time in her life that she felt different from any other kid. Not different as in unique either. Different as in inferior in the minds of someone else. Her paper went on to expound on why she was not flattered when a guy tried to pick her up by calling her Pocahontas. The Disney movie was out at that time and this girl did bear a striking resemblance to the lovely animated Disney character.

You see, she did not want to be considered a cartoon, nor did she want people to think that all tribes of Native Americans are the same. She and the real Pocahontas had nothing in common as far as tribal genealogy.

You can dismiss her feelings all you want, but many of these Native Americans do not like to feel trivialized. That is exactly what Mr. Goddard has done by claiming the word is benign. If it is so benign why does it hurt some people? How many need to be hurt before we simply do the right thing and change the mascot?

Would you suddenly hate your team if they changed the mascot but kept your colors? I hope not. For the life of me I cannot understand why you don't see how offensive the word is. It is indeed a racial label. When did those become harmless? How badly would someone have to be hurting inside for you to care about how they feel? I'd honestly like to know. The same way you'd like to see polls if I can find them, I'd like to know at what point someone's pain would be enough for you to turn your back on the stance you have now?

The big difference here is I don't need to rationalize my stance.
 

kapolani

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I pounded a guy into the ground because he called me a 'spic.'

I'm not even Hispanic.

I'm Hawaiian...

If I were a Native American (The Hawaiian people are Native Americans btw) and someone called me a Commander I'd ground and pound his *** too.

Not even sure why we're arguing with these knuckleheads...
 

Bob Sacamano

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kapolani;3502721 said:
I pounded a guy into the ground because he called me a 'spic.'

I'm not even Hispanic.

I'm Hawaiian...

If I were a Native American (The Hawaiian people are Native Americans btw) and someone called me a Commander I'd ground and pound his *** too.

Not even sure why we're arguing with these knuckleheads...

I'm not sure that they are. They're not natives of North or South America.

Pacific Islanders would be more precise.
 

kapolani

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Bob Sacamano;3502737 said:
I'm not sure that they are. They're not natives of North or South America.

Pacific Islanders would be more precise.

If the Akaka Bill ever passes then we will be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akaka_Bill

My people were forced to be Americans. We didn't ask to be Americans. Nor did the Indian peoples.

I'm a proud American btw, but there are many Native Hawaiians that feel our people got a raw deal.
 

Bob Sacamano

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kapolani;3502763 said:
If the Akaka Bill ever passes then we will be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akaka_Bill

My people were forced to be Americans. We didn't ask to be Americans. Nor did the Indian peoples.

I'm a proud American btw, but there are many Native Hawaiians that feel our people got a raw deal.

Notice how "Native Hawaiian" keeps cropping up in there?
 

kapolani

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Bob Sacamano;3502768 said:
Notice how "Native Hawaiian" keeps cropping up in there?

You notice how Hawaii is the 50th state? Which if you understand anything of the United States is part of America.
 

Bob Sacamano

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kapolani;3502770 said:
You notice how Hawaii is the 50th state? Which if you understand anything of the United States is part of America.

It's not part of North or South America.
 

kapolani

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Bob Sacamano;3502768 said:
Notice how "Native Hawaiian" keeps cropping up in there?

Do you think the Indian peoples called this place America?
 

Bob Sacamano

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kapolani;3502774 said:
Do you think the Indian peoples called this place America?

What does their interpretation have to do with the fact that the continent is referred to as North America?
 

kapolani

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Bob Sacamano;3502772 said:
It's not part of North or South America.

But it's part of America.

Therefore, since it is a part of America, and the Hawaiian people were there before it was a part of America - we are Native American.

It's called the United States of America not the United States of North America.
 

Bob Sacamano

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I guess you are.

Native Americans in the United States are the indigenous peoples in North America within the boundaries of the present-day continental United States, including parts of Alaska and the island state of Hawaii

my b.
 

kapolani

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Bob Sacamano;3502782 said:
I guess you are.

Native Americans in the United States are the indigenous peoples in North America within the boundaries of the present-day continental United States, including parts of Alaska and the island state of Hawaii

my b.

That's why the Akaka Bill has some importance to the Hawaiian people. They would like to get recognized as such.

Not so much for any type of preferential treatment, but for acknowledgement of the fact that this land was theirs.

Hawaiians didn't suffer the exact same atrocities that were inflicted on the Indian Nation, but they were horrific nonetheless.

It is what it is. But, damn did these people suffer.
 

Hostile

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kapolani;3502780 said:
But it's part of America.

Therefore, since it is a part of America, and the Hawaiian people were there before it was a part of America - we are Native American.

It's called the United States of America not the United States of North America.
Congrats on knowing who you are.
 

Eric_Boyer

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kapolani;3502780 said:
It's called the United States of America not the United States of North America.

I prefer the term These United States of America :D
 
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