Skins much easier to beat now...

[ABQCOWBOY]

...Dware faces Chris Samuel pal. get your facts straight. And he just faced off against a pro-bowlers in Porter and Roth and held his own.

Roth and Porter were Pro Bowlers last year? I didn't know that.

 

[silverbear]

I think it's a HUGE injury. Despite the fact that Jansen struggled in the preseason, he's always been a stalwart during the regular season; I might be able to get some Boys fans to agree with me on that, now that he's gone for the year. I think father time is starting to catch up with Jansen.

I think that last sentence is right on the money... hard to believe somebody who was once so very durable could turn this brittle...

I'm not necessarily sure why you speak so lowly of Heyer, other than the fact that he was undrafted

No, it's 1) the reason WHY he went undrafted, the guy is not what you'd call agile of foot, and 2) the way he played in preseason, and yesterday... he 'bout to got Campbell killed in that one preseason game, and from that point forward, the Skins made real sure to give him lots of help...

That's why the Petitti comparison, I actually liked the guy as a rookie, Parcells sang his praises to the high heavens... but when he was forced into the starting lineup, we saw his deficiencies, and worse, so did the rest of the league... and just like the Skins have been giving Heyer lots of TE help, the Boys had to protect Petitti by keeping Witten in to block too often...

You might want to remember that Joe Bugel has been known to sing the praises of linemen who didn't exactly turn out to be studs in the past, and factor that in when he starts pumping up Heyer... back in late July/early August, I was reading quotes from Buges in the Washington Post waxing quite rhapsodic about the skills of one Will Whitticker... and where's big ol' Will now??

I guess you could make the argument that the guy must suck because 32 teams passed on him or whatever...

First, I never said he "sucked", I merely said that he'll be a problem for y'all as a starter... the main reason for that is he's not READY to start in the NFL; perhaps in the fullness of time, he can be developed into a decent NFL blocker, but he's surely not there yet... the Skins are fully aware of that fact...

And as I've noted, there's a reason why he went undrafted... this isn't some kid who flew under the radar at some small school, he played in a fairly high-profile program for a major college conference, he was known to the scouts... what they said about him was that he's on the slow side, as evidenced by a 5.7 second 40 time... they also criticized his balance, and they say he needs to get stronger (which he may well do, after a full offseason in an NFL training program, but that won't help him in 07)...

]The kid didn't give up any sacks

Taylor's sack wasn't on Heyer??

You might want to ask yourself why Chris Cooley had no receptions in regulation, just one for ten yards in overtime... perhaps that's because the Skins were using him to give Heyer help on Taylor...

I think the Phins have a good team and they'll finish second in their division.

I see them as another 6-10 squad... for sure, I'll be flummoxed if they finish at .500 or better...

I was at the game, the offensive line pushed the Dolphins all over the field --

I watched the game, and up until the Skins hit on a total fluke of a Hail Mary on the last play of regulation, they had 288 yards on 53 plays, and 13 points...

Some "pushing"...

Campbell had all day to throw the ball—the offensive line is the least of my concerns.

Campbell was sacked twice, in 23 pass attempts... he was also forced to put the ball down and run 4 times... at least, I don't recall any of those 4 runs being designed calls... so that means he dropped back to pass 27 times, and on 6 of them, there was sufficient pass rush to break the play down... and I do believe that the pass rush played some role in thos interceptions, didn't they?? That alone doesn't sound like "all day to throw the ball to me", no matter what you THOUGHT you saw from your seat in the stadium... in addition, the few number of passing attempts suggests a certain fear of the Miami pass rush by the Skins' coaching staff, doesn't it??

Look at what the Skins did after that last interception Campbell threw, early in the 4th quarter... from that point to the field goal that ended the overtime, if you toss out the garbage Hail Mary play at the end of regulation, the Skins ran 23 plays, and gained 120 yards... 100 of those yards came on 19 carries, Campbell completed 3 of 4 passes for all of 20 yards-- a 2 yarder, an 8 yarder and a 10 yarder...

IOW, immediately after Campbell made that second mistake, the Skins took the game out of his hands... when he threw, it was dumpoff stuff... the reason for that was he WAS under some pressure from the Fins, and Gibbs was scared that pressure would cause Campbell to make another mistake or two, costing the Skins the game...

 

[AmishGangsta]

You might want to remember that Joe Bugel has been known to sing the praises of linemen who didn't exactly turn out to be studs in the past, and factor that in when he starts pumping up Heyer... back in late July/early August, I was reading quotes from Buges in the Washington Post waxing quite rhapsodic about the skills of one Will Whitticker... and where's big ol' Will now??

Coaches rarely call their players out when speaking to the media.

Actually, he went undrafted because he tore his ACL in 2005.
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Taylor's sack wasn't on Heyer??

That was the play Jansen was injured on, Heyer wasn't even in the game.

I believe it was Samuels who gave up that sack, and even he said in his post game interview that it was a coverage sack; Campbell should have gotten rid of the ball.

You might want to ask yourself why Chris Cooley had no receptions in regulation, just one for ten yards in overtime... perhaps that's because the Skins were using him to give Heyer help on Taylor...

You might want to ask yourself why Cooley had no catches even before Heyer came into the game! The Dolphins made it a priority to shut Cooley down and Porter covered him like a blanket. I think the fact that they ran the ball 40+ times also had a lot to do with it. I'd have to go back and look how often they had Cooley in to block, he could have been asked to help out Heyer, who knows, a lot of teams usually leave a tight end in to help contain Jason Taylor and co., it doesn't necessarily mean that he was struggling.

Heyer did a a good job; after the game, Jason Taylor went up to Buges and praised the job he did with Heyer.

That being said, I think they'll start Wade next week - they rested him for the Dolphins game because he had a shoulder injury.

I watched the game, and up until the Skins hit on a total fluke of a Hail Mary on the last play of regulation, they had 288 yards on 53 plays, and 13 points...

Campbell missed on a lot of throws where the receivers were wide open down the field. Not to mention the fact that Moss had like 3 or 4 drops. He had all day to throw, which was surprising considering who they were going up against.

"the Dolphins also were overmatched up front. A Washington offensive line that included undrafted free agent rookie Stephon Heyer plowed through Miami's front seven. The Commanders gained an alarming 191 rushing yards, and there was nothing to suggest they could be stopped had that field goal not ended things" http://www.miamiherald.com/1190/story/231847.html

The Miami Herald and the Miami fans seem to agree with me on this one "It seemed to me that the Skins' OL was the biggest, baddest, heaviest, tallest one I've seen in a long time. No wonder Portis/Bettis rolled up the big yards and no wonder the defense wilted in OT after getting steamrolled all day by the big line.":
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=7774.25&nav=messages&webtag=kr-miamitm

Our offensive line pushed them around and made them look bad on Sunday - they're going to make a lot of defenses look bad this season.


I don't know what your definition of "Dink and Dunk offense is" and I've debunked this claim of yours in the past. Betts Portis and Cooley combined had a total of 2 catches. Randel El -- our leading receiver -- had 5 rec for 162 yards! 32.4 avg; even if you write off the hail marry, the Skins had 3-4 other big passing plays down field, hence the reason why we were able to run all over them -- let me plug this one before you respond, Rushing for close to 200 yards IS running all over them.

Here's some highlights from the game, you show me where the dinks and dunks are:
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8022b248

We can sit here all day considering scenarios like "if you subtract this play and that play, the Skins only had 100 yards of offense..." but the fact of the matter is, the Skins had over 400 yards of offense against one of the best defenses in the league.

he was also forced to put the ball down and run 4 times... at least, I don't recall any of those 4 runs being designed calls...

Just because a QB runs doesn't necessarily mean it's because of pressure, often times it's because nobody is open -- it could be a reason why the QB runs, who knows, but as this point you're just making an assumption.

On the play Campbell threw that pick, the Dolphins were in cover 1 with the DB playing "robber" he was sitting on the ball, it was a horrible throw; there was no pressure on that play that I recall -- again, another assumption.

You sure you didn't accedently pull up the Skins Dolphins 2006 preseason game per chance? Because I don't think we watched the same game, j/k

 

[silverbear]

Coaches rarely call their players out when speaking to the media.

Some do, some don't... but Bugel has shown a Sparky Anderson-esque tendency to get all gushy about some scrub in preseason, only to see the guy wind up being a bust...

I believe it was Samuels who gave up that sack, and even he said in his post game interview that it was a coverage sack; Campbell should have gotten rid of the ball.

Then they switched Jason to the other side?? I didn't think they really did that all that often (and obviously, I was in the bathroom when the play actually occurred)...

You might want to ask yourself why Cooley had no catches even before Heyer came into the game!

Well, Jansen left the game pretty early on...

The Dolphins made it a priority to shut Cooley down and Porter covered him like a blanket.

LOL... trust me when I say that covering TEs is not Porter's strong suit...

I think the fact that they ran the ball 40+ times also had a lot to do with it. I'd have to go back and look how often they had Cooley in to block, he could have been asked to help out Heyer, who knows, a lot of teams usually leave a tight end in to help contain Jason Taylor and co., it doesn't necessarily mean that he was struggling.

Even before Cooley finally caught that 10 yarder in overtime, I was remarking to my nephew (who is a devout Skins fan) how he was taken out of the passing offense to give help to Heyer...

That being said, I think they'll start Wade next week - they rested him for the Dolphins game because he had a shoulder injury.

Well, that doesn't make sense-- if Heyer really did that good a job, what's the point in taking him out of the starting lineup??

Campbell missed on a lot of throws where the receivers were wide open down the field. Not to mention the fact that Moss had like 3 or 4 drops. He had all day to throw, which was surprising considering who they were going up against.

No, he didn't... the Skins didn't throw the ball often, and he was still sacked twice, forced to run four more times, and the pass rush was right there on a number of those completions...

It was fairly rare that he had good time to hold the ball...

The Miami Herald and the Miami fans seem to agree with me on this one "It seemed to me that the Skins' OL was the biggest, baddest, heaviest, tallest one I've seen in a long time. No wonder Portis/Bettis rolled up the big yards and no wonder the defense wilted in OT after getting steamrolled all day by the big line.":
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=7774.25&nav=messages&webtag=kr-miamitm

This tells me that the author is another Randy Galloway wannabe, and not to be taken seriously... that "biggest" offensive line really isn't that big at all-- the Skins' starters yesterday averaged 6-5, 310 pounds with Heyer in the lineup, a coupla pounds lighter when Jansen was in there... that's really not big by NFL standards, and the combo of Rabach at center and Kendall at left guard is actually awfully SMALL by NFL standards (297 pounds and 292 pounds)...

Even the Fins' offensive line was bigger than that, an average of ten pounds per man bigger (6-4.5, 320 pounds)... and if that "reporter" thinks the Skins' offensive line was big, he's not gonna BELIEVE what's coming to town this Sunday-- a line that averages just under 325 pounds a man (and I believe the Boys are under-reporting Leonard Davis' weight at 354, I've seen him listed at 366, and Colombo is listed at 315 on their website, but I've seen him listed at 320 in a number of places)...

In addition, as I've noted before, for all that supposed domination by the offensive line, on the final play of regulation the Skins had racked up 288 yards of total offense, on 53 plays... now that drive in overtime, that WAS domination in the run blocking department, but it looked pretty much to me like the Dolphins just quit on that final series...

Our offensive line pushed them around and made them look bad on Sunday - they're going to make a lot of defenses look bad this season.

Oh, please-- your guys needed overtime to put up 16 points... I like you, but it's quite asinine to say that they "pushed around" the Dolphins yesterday...

I don't know what your definition of "Dink and Dunk offense is"

Do work on that reading comprehension issue, AG, I clearly said that at the outset of this game, the Skins let Campbell take shots downfield like they refused to do at any point last season...

But I predicted that when that finally happened, Campbell would start throwing the ints, and that is indeed what happened... and immediately after that final interception early in the 4th quarter, with the exception of that Hail Mary fluke at the end of regulation, Jason threw nothing but 4 dumpoff type passes the rest of the way... a 2 yard completion, an 8 yard completion and a 10 yarder, while running the ball 19 times...

So, it was back to the dink and dunk we saw last year...

let me plug this one before you respond, Rushing for close to 200 yards IS running all over them.

Except going into overtime, you guys had only rushed for 145 yards, on 34 carries... those are nice numbers, but not "domination"...

We can sit here all day considering scenarios like "if you subtract this play and that play, the Skins only had 100 yards of offense..." but the fact of the matter is, the Skins had over 400 yards of offense against one of the best defenses in the league.

And another fact is that they gained 54 yards of that on an incredible fluke, nothing but pure, dumb luck... then they gained another 58 yards in OVERTIME... it's not really that hard to get to 400 when you get an extra drive or two after the game is generally over...

As for that fifth ranking LAST year, let it just be noted that the Fins are not nearly as good on that side of the ball THIS year, which is a continuation of what happened for them in preseason... they were 25th in total defense on the preseason...

Perhaps before you go to hauling out last year's numbers as proof of anything, you might ponder the fact they have a new head coach, which means at least a slightly different approach to playing the game (even though they still have Dom Capers as their DC)...

 

[silverbear]

I also have to note that for all this offensive line "domination", and the way Skins fans tell us they "pushed around" the Dolphins, the Fins actually had the advantage (a very slight advantage) in time of possession at the end of regulation, 30:03 to 29:57...

Unless an offense is cranking out multiple big plays (as the Boys did against the Giants), if their line really does dominate the game, that fact is reflected in the TOP stats... and the Skins didn't crank out multiple big plays...

Was the Skins' offensive line EFFECTIVE against Miami?? Yes, it was... but in typical Skins fan fashion, you guys can't be content with saying the line played well, no, you have to tell us (and yourselves), that it was some kind of total domination, when it really wasn't... especially not up until that final drive in overtime...

 

[AmishGangsta]

Then they switched Jason to the other side?? I didn't think they really did that all that often (and obviously, I was in the bathroom when the play actually occurred)...

They were shuffling him around once Heyer came in.

No, he didn't... the Skins didn't throw the ball often, and he was still sacked twice, forced to run four more times, and the pass rush was right there on a number of those completions...

Well, he wasn't under much pressure from the pass rush and he had a very effective running game going on, both of which should have optimized his chances for having a good ball game, and he didn't... what exactly do you think will change from this game, or the games he had last season??

Wait, you were just telling me that the Phins were getting all kinds of pressure on the Skins offensive line. Now in a different argument with a different person, you're saying Campbell wasn't under much pressure from the pass rush.

Which is it? Your argument seems to be changing right in front of my eyes.

Well, that doesn't make sense-- if Heyer really did that good a job, what's the point in taking him out of the starting lineup??

I don't know who they are planning to start. I initially thought they were going to start Wade, however, Gibbs acted like Heyer was going to start in in his 5:00 press conference, but they haven't made an official announcement. I think they are comfortable w/ playing either of them; I think if they were to start Heyer, it would be a decision that is being considered for the future, in further developing the guy.

In addition, as I've noted before, for all that supposed domination by the offensive line, on the final play of regulation the Skins had racked up 288 yards of total offense, on 53 plays... now that drive in overtime, that WAS domination in the run blocking department, but it looked pretty much to me like the Dolphins just quit on that final series...

You're putting words in my mouth, I said that they ran all over the Phins. I never said they dominated.

Oh, they just quit in overtime, for no reason at all? I think they ran out of gas, due to being pushed around all day by our line, that much was evident.

Jason threw nothing but 4 dumpoff type passes the rest of the way... a 2 yard completion, an 8 yard completion and a 10 yarder, while running the ball 19 times...

Except going into overtime, you guys had only rushed for 145 yards, on 34 carries... those are nice numbers, but not "domination"...

Oh, so you're back to this dink and dunk argument again?

Wait—you pretty much try to discredit the Skins ground game because they picked up 50-60 yards of it in overtime. Then you try to use a 9 play drive that occurred in overtime to be the conclusion of your argument, as to why the Skins have a dink in dunk offense?

You say that the Skins don't have a down field passing game? Are you talking about regulation play or just overtime? Rande El had 5 catches for 162 yards! even if we were to eliminate the play at the end of regulation, he made other big plays down the field of 35 and 49 yards.


Gibbs played it conservative in overtime and it payed off. Why would they pass the ball down the field when they were getting big gains from the running backs (6, 14, 1, 10, 1, 5, 9). They knew the Dolphins were tired, and they ran it down their throat, and they won the game. There was no reason at all to take a deep shot.

I never said the Skins running game was dominating the game, you're getting this thread confused with another thread we had -- when we were discussing the Skins defense in the preseason.

What I said was the Skins offensive line was pushing the Dolphins around and making them look bad -- which they did, especially in overtime.

 

[AmishGangsta]

Ok Silverbear, here's what I picked up from re-watching the game on my computer.

I got the two sacks mixed up. Zack Thomas got the first sack on the play where Jansen was injured, thomas ran right into the back of him -- I think that was Samuels who was blocking him, but the refs missed Jason Taylor being offsides on that one. Jason Taylor's sack happened later in the game, lining up on Samuels. Jason Campbell held on to the ball for way too long.

As far as Chris Cooley is concerned, he was lined up next to Heyer on some of the running plays, but I didn't really see what you saw as far as him lining up to help Heyer in passing situations -- he stayed back only on 2 or 3 pass plays, but it was actually on Samuels side to help him against Jason Taylor.

I mean, if you're really looking for something to hang your hat on, Heyer did have a penalty, but other than one play where he was pushed back into Campbell by Jason Taylor, forcing him to run out of the pocket, he held up his end.

I was expecting your Cooley claim to be correct, but I didn't see it on the game tape.

 

[random Cs]

Only a moron would think the fins are the best front 7 in football.

One of the best MLB's in the game, even at 32 hasn't suffered any significant injuries and has had over 100 solo tackles over the last two seasons. One of the better pass rushing LB's in the game in Porter with Crowder on the other side.

A D-Line with the reigning Defensive MVP, Holiday and Keith Traylor? Keith is as old as dirt but is still an effective NT and Holiday is a stud.


Chi, SD, maybe Jax are ahead, other teams might average better production, but cmon now. Make any argument for another front 7 in football and I could easily counter with the Phins on paper.