Specter: Patriots Cheated in '04 Against Steelers

[superpunk]

Back in September, Greg Easterbrook wrote a really interesting article, that was really only interesting because of the mad speculation he ran in it.

He wasn't far off.

One thing I have an issue with is the league office's inconsistency when describing why they destroyed the tapes so rapidly.

First, Aiello wrote, "The purpose of destroying the tapes and related documents was to eliminate any advantage they might have given the Patriots going forward and ensure a level playing field for all 32 teams." But the league announced last week that the Patriots "certified in writing" that no copies of the materials exist. If the sole copies of the sign-stealing materials had been sent to the league office, it would be impossible for these materials to give the Patriots any advantage. When I pointed that out, Aiello countered that the reason for the destruction was "so that our clubs would know they no longer exist and cannot be used by anyone." Again, if the sole copies were being held by the league, how could any club use the material?

And now, Goodell seems to be taking the stance that they were destroyed because

(a) They had an admission of guilt by the Patriots, and

(b) Jay Glazer getting ahold of one freaked them out.

Is that correct?

Here was Easterbrook's portion when he asked whether the Pats had taped during super bowls.

After Aiello twice declined to say what the Patriots' materials showed, I heard from him a third time Sunday. He wrote in an e-mail that my assumption the tapes contained indications of Super Bowl cheating is "wrong," then wrote, "There is no such evidence regarding the Patriots' Super Bowl victories." So, is this the denial that I've been seeking? But wait: Three days earlier, the NFL destroyed the evidence. I asked Aiello whether he meant there is no evidence now of New England cheating in a Super Bowl -- that is, after the destruction of the files -- or whether examination of the materials positively affirmed no cheating. He did not reply.

Is the Rams evidence new, if not confirmed? If not, then Aiello was lying here.

 

[SultanOfSix]

how convenient

yet you try to pass off this "default" bullchition, that contains no proof, as fact

This has been repeated ad naseum and you Pats defenders are ridiculous in your rationalizations. You don't destroy evidence if you're 1) innocent because it vindicates you and 2) if it's inconclusive because you can't determine guilt one way or the other. So, that leaves 3) you're guilty and you want it covered up.

So, the only bullchitification is what is being done by Pats defenders. Go tell a judge why you destroyed evidence and see if he thinks that "it could fall into the wrong hands" is a sufficient enough reason. You'll be laughed out of a court room.

 

[tyke1doe]

Your one of those that likes to hear themselves talk aren't you

Change it to "type," and I say "yes."

Gotta keep the typing skills fine tuned.

 

[peplaw06]

My bad. I meant search warrant.

And you may say that Goodell didn't need either, but without it, he can't just barge into the Patriots headquarters, especially if he thought the Patriots were so nefarious that they would discard evidence before he had asked for it.

No Goodell doesn't have to have a search warrant. The search warrant is a constitutional requirement for state actors. Goodell is not a state actor. I'm certain his powers are covered in the CBA. Hence, your tangent is out of left field.

And this dependence you're placing on the Mortensen article that says Goodell will continue to investigate is ridiculous. That article was written before the Pats turned over the tapes.... almost 6 months ago.

It says nothing about what Goodell actually did over those 6 months. You can't prove that he investigated based on what he "intended" to do. Unless you have some articles between the time that Goodell destroyed the tapes and the week before the Super Bowl that actually go into what Goodell was investigating, all your bluster is just speculation.

 

[tyke1doe]

No Goodell doesn't have to have a search warrant. The search warrant is a constitutional requirement for state actors. Goodell is not a state actor. I'm certain his powers are covered in the CBA. Hence, your tangent is out of left field.

But the point, counselor, is that without it or powers to search the Patriots' complex, you can't say he can just barge in there and seize the tapes. So he has to trust the Patriots to turn over all their tapes and trust that they're telling him the truth. Without the power to search their facilities, what other choice does he have?

And this dependence you're placing on the Mortensen article that says Goodell will continue to investigate is ridiculous. That article was written before the Pats turned over the tapes.... almost 6 months ago.

No, it's not ridiculous. It's another point in my argument.
Furthermore, it emphasize a point of contention in this issue, i.e., did the Pats turn over ALL the tapes or are there other copies out there.
Remember, Walsh is said to have a copy of those tapes.
And his possession of those tapes would appear to violate Goodell's mandate to the Pats, hence the investigation and possibly further sanctions.

It says nothing about what Goodell actually did over those 6 months. You can't prove that he investigated based on what he "intended" to do. Unless you have some articles between the time that Goodell destroyed the tapes and the week before the Super Bowl that actually go into what Goodell was investigating, all your bluster is just speculation.

As is your bluster that there's a cover-up.

Neither you or I know what actually happened. All we know for certain is that the Pats cheated, the league caught the Pats cheating during the Jets game and that tapes were destroyed.

We don't know the full extent of this investigation because, naturally, we're not going to be privy to that information.

So we're both speculating to some degree.

 

[khiladi]

If Pats don't comply with Goodell's order, more sanctions likely coming
By Chris Mortensen
ESPN.com

Updated: September 16, 2007, 11:11 AM ET

Goodell alluded to the league's position when he made his decision public to discipline the Patriots when he stated that the NFL would "review" and "monitor" the team's videotaping procedures, effective immediately. Privately, the commissioner was more specific in his demands and expectations with Patriots owner Robert Kraft when the two men spoke Thursday, sources said.

The action is being taken because Belichick all but conceded to the commissioner that his interpretation of the rules allowed him to use videotape of opposing team hand signals for future games but not on game day, sources said. The commissioner rejected that interpretation and was aware that there had been other incidents involving the Patriots in recent years.

If Goodell discovers that Belichick and the team has copied the files without disclosure to the NFL, the consequences will be significant, sources said.

Chris Mortensen covers the NFL for ESPN.

All the more amusing that an article dated September 16 is given as proof to support Goodell. As I said before, your just not following the case and are so interested in defending your lame arguments it is laughable.

Per the words of Spectre, they destroyed the tapes on the 20th. They fined Bellichek on the 18th or earlier. What this means is that whatever Goodell said prior to the 20th was simply a smokescreen. He had to do it, considering his whole image was predicated on cleaning up the image of the league. He thought that by laying down this 'punishment', people would think the issue was over.

The whole 'thorough' investigation never happened. The whole argument that he was going to investigate further, considering the timeline of the actual events, makes no sense.

 

[khiladi]

I know this is hard for you Goodell fnas, but let me break it down to you:

THE TAPES WERE RECEIVED AND DESTROYED AFTER GOODELL LAID DOWN HIS JUDGEMENT, PER THE WORDS OF SPECTRE....

 

[theogt]

SPECTER PRESSES FORWARD, WITH SUPPORT
Posted by Mike Florio on February 15, 2008, 8:40 a.m.

Surely, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell hoped that Wednesday’s meeting with Senator Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) was the last chapter in a book that Goodell can’t wait to finish. For Specter, however, there still are many pages left.

Specter plans to press forward with his investigation of the manner in which the league handled the Spygate scandal. According to Mike Fish of ESPN.com, Specter claims that he has the support of Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Specter said that Leahy is “prepared to have the committee pay for people who travel and investigate.” While that’s a far cry from a hearing like the Rocket-and-Pony show that unfolded this week before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, it’s a step toward what ultimately could be a full-blown Congressional inquiry.

In our view, it’s important for Specter to show that other Senators are on board with his efforts. As we argued on Thursday, Specter’s solo act was at its ending point. Though there are questions that still need to be answered, the mission needs to take root with others in Congress before it can be taken seriously.

Fish also explains (and we can’t recall ever seeing this before) that the materials surrendered by the Pats were destroyed in Foxborough by Jeff Pash and Ray Anderson.

Pash’s role in this matter is critical, in our view. Pash, you see, is a Harvard-educated lawyer. He practiced for 13 years with Covington & Burling, the firm that still handles the league’s work. And any practicing lawyer (even those who went to far less prestigious schools and work for far less prestigious firms) know that the prospect of destroying potential evidence is a serious matter.

Pash’s involvement in the destruction of the the evidence surrendered by the Patriots tends to corroborate rumors (we repeat: rumors) that the materials turned over by Patriots coach Bill Belichick included evidence of cheating by other teams sufficiently widespread to give the league office concerns regarding the potential impact of the evidence on the network broadcasting contracts, which apparently contain language warranting that the on-field competition is real.

Again, that’s only a rumor. But we believe that there had to be a very compelling reason for Pash to permit the information to be destroyed. A concern that the league couldn’t keep the information out of the hands of the media isn’t, in our view, anywhere close to the level that would prompt an officer of the court to disregard the kind of common sense that every lawyer acquires at some point during his or her career.

 

[khiladi]

Pash’s involvement in the destruction of the the evidence surrendered by the Patriots tends to corroborate rumors (we repeat: rumors) that the materials turned over by Patriots coach Bill Belichick included evidence of cheating by other teams sufficiently widespread to give the league office concerns regarding the potential impact of the evidence on the network broadcasting contracts, which apparently contain language warranting that the on-field competition is real.

Again, that’s only a rumor. But we believe that there had to be a very compelling reason for Pash to permit the information to be destroyed. A concern that the league couldn’t keep the information out of the hands of the media isn’t, in our view, anywhere close to the level that would prompt an officer of the court to disregard the kind of common sense that every lawyer acquires at some point during his or her career.

Uh no, the rumor is that the Patriots cheated, not the rest of the league. Another angle to absolve the Patriots and Bellichek...

 

[theogt]

Uh no, the rumor is that the Patriots cheated, not the rest of the league. Another angle to absolve the Patriots and Bellichek...

The rumor he's been floating for awhile is that the reason Goodell went so easy on the Patriots and destroyed the tapes was because Belichick threatened him to come forward with information about many more teams cheating. Basically a scorched earth policy.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Sometimes cheating just aint enough

by Don Henley - Covered by Bill Belichick


Theres a danger in cheating too much
And its sad when you know its your coach you cant trust
Theres a reason why people dont stay where they are
Baby sometimes cheating just aint enough

Now I could never change you
I do wanna blame you

And like a fool who will never see the truth
You keep thinking somethings gonna change

And theres no way to get this years trophy home
When its late at night and youre all alone
Are there things that you wanted to say "I cheated"
Do you feel it beside you in your bed
There beside you where it used to lay

 

[5Stars]

The rumor he's been floating for awhile is that the reason Goodell went so easy on the Patriots and destroyed the tapes was because Belichick threatened him to come forward with information about many more teams cheating. Basically a scorched earth policy.

Exactely how is Belicheat going to do that?

"Yeah, Mr. Goodell, but the Cowboys cheated, so there"!!

Does Belicheat have access to all the teams librarys?

Easy, theogt...easy!

 

[khiladi]

The rumor he's been floating for awhile is that the reason Goodell went so easy on the Patriots and destroyed the tapes was because Belichick threatened him to come forward with information about many more teams cheating. Basically a scorched earth policy.

Goodell is just full of crap. He has changed his story so many times it is laughable.

He is said to have stated that the NFL disclosed the matter about the Patriots. If what Goodell says is true, than logically, the idea that other teams were cheating is just absurd. Why would he disclose the matter, if it went deeper than the Patriots?

Now, there is the rumor that other NFL teams are willing to turn over evidence regarding the Patriots, if they believe the investigation doesn't go far enough. It is quite clear that many players began to express the idea that there was a certain favoritism going for the Patriots this year.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Good article SP posted.

"There is no such evidence regarding the Patriots' Super Bowl victories." So, is this the denial that I've been seeking? But wait: Three days earlier, the NFL destroyed the evidence. I asked Aiello whether he meant there is no evidence now of New England cheating in a Super Bowl -- that is, after the destruction of the files -- or whether examination of the materials positively affirmed no cheating. He did not reply.

Maybe this is why they destroyed it... So they could use this oh-so-tricky excuse that no evidence on the Super Bowl existed?

And of course so that when more powerful forces got involved, they wouldn't have anything to reveal to the world.

Anyone who thinks this isn't a huge cover-up is living in la-la land.

 

[conner01]

one thing that really puzzles me. in order for the tapes to help you the other team would have to go all season and never change their signals.every teams knows the other team is watching their signals. thats why some teams have 2 peope giving signals, thats why coaches cover their mouths when calling plays. it's common knowledge around the nfl that other teams are watching ( not that they are taping)
so why would a team not change their signals?

 

[5Stars]

Good article SP posted.



Maybe this is why they destroyed it... So they could use this oh-so-tricky excuse that no evidence on the Super Bowl existed?

And of course so that when more powerful forces got involved, they wouldn't have anything to reveal to the world.

Anyone who thinks this isn't a huge cover-up is living in la-la land.

It's possible that there is a cover up and it's also possible that the Patties did not cheat...however, the damage is done! They will live with this for the entire existence of that franchise.

As for me...I would not doubt for a second that Belicheat cheated! The man does not seem to have any morals at all. The idiot dogged another coaches wife, now that is cheating at it's finest!

And all this "Here, Mr. Goodell, this is all the tapes I have. Six tapes out of 3 hundred thousand tapes, and here are 2 sheets of paper notes. Is that good enough"?

"Sure, Mr. Belichick, I'll take your word for it. You seem to be an honest man. I'll destroy these tapes and notes and this will go away, OK? Hey, let's go catch some lunch"!

 

[peplaw06]

But the point, counselor, is that without it or powers to search the Patriots' complex, you can't say he can just barge in there and seize the tapes. So he has to trust the Patriots to turn over all their tapes and trust that they're telling him the truth. Without the power to search their facilities, what other choice does he have?

No the point is once again, you've misapplied terms typically reserved for the legal realm. You're only making it worse.

Neither you or I know what actually happened. All we know for certain is that the Pats cheated, the league caught the Pats cheating during the Jets game and that tapes were destroyed.

:laugh2:

Yeah, sounds like a kosher set of circumstances there.

We don't know the full extent of this investigation because, naturally, we're not going to be privy to that information.

Not if the investigator is hiding information. Most investigations give at least some indication that they are actually investigating something. When you don't hear anything out of an "investigation" after the only evidence is destroyed, speculation about a "cover-up" is instantly at play.

You might wanna read that article that theo posted from Florio. Specifically the part about the lawyer destroying the evidence and what that means to most lawyers.

 

[peplaw06]

one thing that really puzzles me. in order for the tapes to help you the other team would have to go all season and never change their signals.every teams knows the other team is watching their signals. thats why some teams have 2 peope giving signals, thats why coaches cover their mouths when calling plays. it's common knowledge around the nfl that other teams are watching ( not that they are taping)
so why would a team not change their signals?

If it doesn't help, then why do it routinely for 7 years?

 

[5Stars]

If it doesn't help, then why do it routinely for 7 years?

Why? Because the genius said that he did not know the rules!

So much for the coaching genius, I guess...and, apparently the genius cannot read because even after the NFL sent him a letter telling him not to do it, the genius(i cannot spell this damn word for the life of me) did it again the following week or so!

Yeah, that Belichick is a pretty fart smeller, ifen you know wat I means...

 

[khiladi]

Not if the investigator is hiding information. Most investigations give at least some indication that they are actually investigating something. When you don't hear anything out of an "investigation" after the only evidence is destroyed, speculation about a "cover-up" is instantly at play.

Which is just laughable in this whole context. Bellichek was punished with the 'steepest' fine in the history of the NFL before Goodell even got the tapes and destroyed them. The idea of there being a steep fine was a concoction by the NFL to downplay this whole event. Goodell 'punished' Bellichek without even looking at the evidence. How can you claim that the punishment was enough, when there wasn't even an 'investigation' into the tapes until after the punishment?

Now, he is saying that he pursued all these various leads after the fact, but couldn't find anything?

You expect us to believe you were interested in pursuing the matter further, when you GET the evidence and destroy it AFTER the punishment?

The guy is straight lying....