State of the DT position

Sydla

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That could be yeah....it just seemed like the defense knew what was coming.

I really thought we were done with our opponents telling the media how predictable we are.... and responding by doing nothing about it.

Note, I am not giving Moore a pass. I think his issues were often getting too cute at the wrong time and going away from things that were working/suited our players strengths.

I would not have cried if he got a head job somewhere.
 

fivetwos

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Note, I am not giving Moore a pass. I think his issues were often getting too cute at the wrong time and going away from things that were working/suited our players strengths.

I would not have cried if he got a head job somewhere.
Gotcha.

Really comes down to the same thing. Jerry dumped Garrett etc but he still needs to have his potential hand picked puppet/genius who can learn on the job.

Moores lack of coordinator experience hurt us last year IMO when it was time for a counterpunch when it mattered.
 

fivetwos

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If Jordan Davis is there you have to take him but his combine numbers make him going earlier than expected in my mind.
Nightmare scenario....

Philly ends up with Green, Davis and J Johnson.

That's nowhere near far fetched.

Every one will be a dagger as we desperately could use all three.
 

conner01

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No way in hell would I pass on Jordan Davis at 24 ..........but I don't see him getting close to our selection
That’s the thing
Every team wants a good run stuffing DT who can offer some pass rush ability. The reason everyone wants one is there aren’t that many of them
At 24 I don’t see an impact DT being there though sometimes strange things happen
 

Big_D

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Double down on that hindsight.


Jerry was in zero position for a project with a roster that needed instant help, not living off the hopes of potential with another ridiculous second round gamble. You might buy that garbage? It's not hindsight when the same exact thing was said on draft day!! The guy was in a wheelchair and this clown of a GM takes him at 34? That was year 22 for "GM" Jerry. Didn't really take much to see the stupidity unfold in real time. And the 16 draft was a classic. RB at 4. LB in a wheelchair at 34. And fans are being called out for hindsight? Too funny! While you actually act surprised none of it worked out.
 

Bowdown27

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Nightmare scenario....

Philly ends up with Green, Davis and J Johnson.

That's nowhere near far fetched.

Every one will be a dagger as we desperately could use all three.
Talk about nightmare is right
 

quickccc

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Its going to take awhile to overhaul the marinelli in the front office. Rob was perfectly fine reshaping veteran rejects from other teams and he was good at making them better. I think the FO still has some of that philosophy in them.

Quinn had really good DTs in Atlanta and I can't beleive he's not going to push the Jones boys to take a DT with the first or second pick.

If there's DTs on McClay's draft board that are graded and warranted of taking them at their respective slot and rounds.
i would want to believe McClay is not taking a DT , just for the sake of taking one.
 

quickccc

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In 2012, Dallas was picking 14th. They then moved up to 6th to take CB Morris Claiborne. Dontari Poe was taken 11th. Fletcher Cox was taken 12th, not a top 10 pick. Michael Brockers was ironically selected in Dallas's original pick at 14.

In 2013, with their 2nd round selection, Dallas took TE Galvin Escobar. 2 picks later, NYG took longtime NFL stalwart Jonathan Hankins at DT.

In the 2014 Draft, Aaron Donald went 13th overall. Also not a top 10 pick. Dallas picked 18th, approximate value of that move up is a third + fourth rounder.

In 2015 Dallas drafted way back at 27th. 5 picks later, NE took their defensive lynchpin DT Malcolm Brown. Brown has 2 SB rings in 3 visits, and signed a giant contract with miami last offseason. He is awesome.

In 2016, you drafted Ezekiel Elliot 4th overall. Deforest Buckner went 3 picks after. He is currently Indianapolis's DT after they traded a first rounder for him and gave him the largest Dline contract in team history. He was All-Pro in 2020 and has 45 sacks in 6 years despite playing the 3-tech. In the second round, Dallas selected Jaylon Smith. 3 picks later, a player named Chris Jones was selected. Despite also playing the 3-tech, 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT position, Chris Jones has 50 sacks in only 6 years, and is on pace to go to the hall of fame.

In 2018 in the first round, Dallas drafted LVE 19th overall. Vita Vea went 12th overall, also not a top 10 pick. That would have cost approximately a 2nd round pick to move up. If not willing to move up for Vea, Dallas could have selected 1st round pick Taven Bryan. Bryan has been quiet because he was drafted in Jacksonville, but Cleveland just signed him this offseason to be their starting DT.

In 2019, Dallas traded their first round pick for WR Amari Cooper, whom they they traded away for a 5th round pick 3 years and 50m$ later. That pick was #27, LAC took a DT with the very next pick, Jerry Tillery. Tillery has played in 47 of a possible 48 games for the Chargers in his 3 year career, and will be starting in 2022 opposite Joey Bosa and Khalil Mack. You will know his name very shortly. in the 2nd round, Dallas reached for malcontent Trysten Hill. The very next DT drafted was 3-tech Dre'Mont Jones to Denver. Dre'Mont already has 15.5 sacks in his 3 year career, despite not being an every day starter. He is projected to be in 2022, and that number should balloon.

To say you had no shot at strong DT's because they were top 10 picks is all hullaballoo. You've quite literally avoided drafting some of the greatest DT's of our generation, not to mention another half dozen guys who would easily start in Dallas's current roster. Dallas has had every opportunity to not just fix the position, but to have the strongest interior Dline in the entire NFL.

Again, the most you've invested in the position in the last 10 years was reaching for Trysten Hill in the 2nd round. No trades, no major free agent acquisitions, no big contract extensions for DT's who surpassed expectations... because there weren't any. You get out of it what you put into it. The Jones's have indirectly acknowledged against building the DT position because that does not fit their model for winning Super Bowls.

Thanks for Sharing …

Although from what I am seeing from all that you’ve formatted here seems to be just hindsight.
Most of the players you’re bringing up hindsight wise, I do not recall Cowboys Nation screaming how we passed up this guy, that guy , .. Cox, Wagner, Chris Jones, oh we should’ve moved up for Vita, etc.

Oh but now years down, let’s see if we can let our fingers do the walkin' thru NFL draft database and conjure up hind sights ?
BTW, we had the chance to sign Malcolm Brown as an UFA from NE Pats, after they decided he wasn’t gonna be the elite interior force they thought when they drafted him in 1st round.

- I’m gonna continue to see people bringing up Chris Jones over Jaylon Smith, but at that time of the draft, many had no clue Chris Jones was gonna be as elite as he is.

- To this day I have no qualms about drafting ZKE 4th overall, by the he was expected to take the NFL by storm, and he did take the NFL by storm and he was an Adrien Peterson like force his first 2 years, ( i believe he's led the NFL in rushing twice) he's stayed outta the Goodell dog house since the suspensions, then Garrett regime decided to bulk him ..to beat him up, .and he flat was never the same again to this day.
 

Aerolithe_Lion

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Thanks for Sharing …

Although from what I am seeing from all that you’ve formatted here seems to be just hindsight.
Most of the players you’re bringing up hindsight wise, I do not recall Cowboys Nation screaming how we passed up this guy, that guy , .. Cox, Wagner, Chris Jones, oh we should’ve moved up for Vita, etc.

Oh but now years down, let’s see if we can let our fingers do the walkin' thru NFL draft database and conjure up hind sights ?
BTW, we had the chance to sign Malcolm Brown as an UFA from NE Pats, after they decided he wasn’t gonna be the elite interior force they thought when they drafted him in 1st round.

- I’m gonna continue to see people bringing up Chris Jones over Jaylon Smith, but at that time of the draft, many had no clue Chris Jones was gonna be as elite as he is.

- To this day I have no qualms about drafting ZKE 4th overall, by the he was expected to take the NFL by storm, and he did take the NFL by storm and he was an Adrien Peterson like force his first 2 years, ( i believe he's led the NFL in rushing twice) he's stayed outta the Goodell dog house since the suspensions, then Garrett regime decided to bulk him ..to beat him up, .and he flat was never the same again to this day.

Theres no doubt hindsight plays a factor here Because there are also many DT’s who didn’t work out that I avoided acknowledging. With either the busts or the hindsight picks, the point is still the same: you strike out on all of the attempts you don’t make.

Take a chance on any of the DTs and eventually you’ll get 1-2 of the guys on my list. Philadelphia had a few average or below average DT first round picks before we landed on Cox. But it was all worth it because we kept trying. Dallas does not want to
 

plasticman

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Armstrong is a JAG. He’s a backup, a dime a dozen type player. Sure he’s fine for depth but I am not following your point here. I don’t think many fans would have cared one way or the other if Armstrong had been brought back or not.

Hill is what he is. Expecting the light bulb to go off in his head at this point and be anything more than a backup type DT is wishful thinking.
I'm definitely not saying that Armstrong should be a starter but he does deserve to be part of a rotation, he's not just a warm body. He is improving with experience.

When you compare Armstrong's numbers last season to Gregory's, was there a massive difference?

Armstrong played in 13 games with 5 starts. Gregory played in 12 games with 11 starts. Gregory had 6 sacks, Armstrong had 5. Gregory returned an INT for a TD, Armstrong returned a fumble for a TD. Gregory with 17 QB hits, Armstrong with 12. Gregory has participated in 50 games for his career, Armstrong 49 games. Gregory will be 30, Armstrong 25. Gregory was a 2nd round pick in the 2015 draft, Armstrong a 4th round pick in the 2018 draft.

And yet, Gregory gets 70 million over five years and Armstrong gets 13 million over two? The Cowboys got lucky on this one, they were getting ready to make the deal with Gregory until the disagreement.

Hill may seem like a longshot but he seems to play solid whenever healthy. It would be great if the Cowboys were awarded better health next season to make up for injuries that stopped the expected DL starters from playing together until very late into the season. Last season there were times when the entire D-line were all rookies, very often three out of four.
 

kskboys

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Ratliff was playing the NT role in a 3-4 scheme at around 295 lbs.
It had been reported that Cowboys coaching staff wanted Ratliff to move him to DE but he was very reluctant (refused) to make that move.
Sad, because that's what shortened his career and made him less effective.
 

CowboyRoy

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Interesting thought, but why do the cowboys continue to struggle against the run then? Hill, Watson, gallimore, bohanna, urban all are over or very close to 6’4” 300lbs. Only true undersized DT is OSA.
They don’t. Your talking about one big game against a team like the niners that ran on everyone including GB the next week.
 

bigdnlaca

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I wonder if the Cowboys is hoping that Brady Jarrett gets released or traded. There is no guaranteed money left for the Falcons to pay him and the cap hit is 16 mil.
 

Hadenough

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Specially if you’re drafting Jaylon Smith over Chris Jones. Just one of the many fundamental problems here!
Will never forget watching Jones walk up and hug the commissioner on draft day and my thought was we passed up this monster to draft a hurt LB who may never be the same.
 

JeffInDC

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He is a unicorn, however looking at PFFs top ranked DTs from last year it seems to be pretty split on bigger vs undersized guys. Of their top 12 (I get PFF isnt 100% accurate) half are listed under 300lbs.

Donald
Sieler
Heyward
Allen
Watt (Super low snap count compared to the others)
Armstead

If you look at the 25 Top Rated RUN DEFENDING DT's (which is the BIGGEST issue Dallas' DT's have), only Donald, Cam Heyward and Zach Sieler are listed under 300. And, Heyward looks like he weighs a tick over 300, so...I will continue to say that all the 3T on the team would perform even BETTER if they had a LEGIT 1T taking on consistent double-teams to fre them up for 1-on-1 battles on almost every play. That's the whole point for the creation of the 3T - exploiting favorable 1-on-1 matchups up and down the line.
 

John813

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Collins is getting 8.5 AAV but I doubt he's there for more than a year.

It's a 2 year deal, with 2 additional void years to drop the low prorated signing bonus.
Cap hit of 3.8mil this year, 10 next year.
Only 1mil guaranteed salary in 2023 so they could cut him next offseason and "save" 4.5mil on the cap hit.

I'm surprised the texans even bothered with void years with Collins. Going to take a 3mil dead cap in 2024 or 5.5 in 23 if they cut him early.
 
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