Stephen Jones sees Jay Ratliff as nose tackle

[MichaelWinicki]

The challenge with moving Ratliff to DE is that he doesn't have the same physical advantages he has over guards and centers.

Ratliff is very quick off the snap which causes centers and guards problems but he doesn't have the burst to be an effective DE. There was a reason he was moved to NT/DT.

Against offensive tackles his physical advantages diminish.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Either of those guys would make 4 straight Pro Bowls here? So we should draft Poe at 14? Because I don't think he's there at 45.

I like Soliai, but it's hard for me to say a guy who has never been a Pro Bowl player magically becomes one upon arrival here.

Trade down and Poe will be there for us. If DeCastro is off the board, i'd try to trade down right away and pick up an extra early 2nd or late first if anyone has a guy they want to jump up for.

Also, its not about Pro Bowls.. that's a cop out to even mention. Just because you make the Pro Bowl doesn't mean you are the best at your position, especially DT which has two different kinds of players there.

Rat has not been effective at NT the past two years when we've been trying to play him as more of a traditional NT. Its a fact. His production is down, we get basically zero push up the middle on any given pass play, so the pass rush is suffering as well. Any time our OLB's get up the field and beat their man, all the QB has to do is step up into the nice big pocket he has to avoid the sack. Its the equivilent of taking one of the most talented players on your team and telling him to go bang his head into a brick wall for the entire game. Its not working out. Everyone keeps saying he wouldn't be a good fit at DE, i can't imagine he wouldn't be. Faces less double teams, goes up against players closer to his weight and can more effectively use his greatest strength (his speed/strength combo) to get to the QB and cause some pressure.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

The challenge with moving Ratliff to DE is that he doesn't have the same physical advantages he has over guards and centers.

Ratliff is very quick off the snap which causes centers and guards problems but he doesn't have the burst to be an effective DE. There was a reason he was moved to NT/DT.

Against offensive tackles his physical advantages diminish.

I'd say the "physical advantages" he has over guards/centers haven't been working out so well for him the past couple years, huh?

His production has been way down and we generate little to no push up the middle on the pass rush.

NT is not his position. He has no advantage when they play him like a traditional NT.

 

[NeonNinja]

Basically, that is the estimated cost it would take to sign Paul Soliai from what I've heard.

No, that was his Franchise Tag amount.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I'd say the "physical advantages" he has over guards/centers haven't been working out so well for him the past couple years, huh?

His production has been way down and we generate little to no push up the middle on the pass rush.

NT is not his position. He has no advantage when they play him like a traditional NT.

Ranked the 7th best NT/DT last season.

It's easy to see that the Cowboys pass rush problems begin with Ratliff.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Trade down and Poe will be there for us. If DeCastro is off the board, i'd try to trade down right away and pick up an extra early 2nd or late first if anyone has a guy they want to jump up for.

Also, its not about Pro Bowls.. that's a cop out to even mention. Just because you make the Pro Bowl doesn't mean you are the best at your position, especially DT which has two different kinds of players there.

Rat has not been effective at NT the past two years when we've been trying to play him as more of a traditional NT. Its a fact. His production is down, we get basically zero push up the middle on any given pass play, so the pass rush is suffering as well. Any time our OLB's get up the field and beat their man, all the QB has to do is step up into the nice big pocket he has to avoid the sack. Its the equivilent of taking one of the most talented players on your team and telling him to go bang his head into a brick wall for the entire game. Its not working out. Everyone keeps saying he wouldn't be a good fit at DE, i can't imagine he wouldn't be. Faces less double teams, goes up against players closer to his weight and can more effectively use his greatest strength (his speed/strength combo) to get to the QB and cause some pressure.

Poe is a huge pass-rushing threat.

He had one sack this past season.

What a monster.

 

[TheCount]

The challenge with moving Ratliff to DE is that he doesn't have the same physical advantages he has over guards and centers.

Ratliff is very quick off the snap which causes centers and guards problems but he doesn't have the burst to be an effective DE. There was a reason he was moved to NT/DT.

Against offensive tackles his physical advantages diminish.

Athletically, Ratliff stacks up well with the best in the business. He's a better athlete than Darnell Dockett and not too far off from JJ Watt, even though I'm sure Watt had a lot more resources at his disposal to prepare for the Combine, where as Ratliff wasn't even invited.

He "played" DE (if you want to even call it that, since as a 7th round pick, he was purely a rotational guy) for all of 2 years, starting just 1 game in those two years, and even still he racked up 5 sacks, 4 of them in his second year.

To contrast, Spears has NEVER had a 4 sack season. Neither had Bowen until this year in Was, Neither had Canty until this year in NY. Neither had Hatcher, until this year.

By 2007, he was the starting NT after Ferguson went down. The idea that he "failed at DE", which is what a lot of people love saying in response to those that suggest the move back to DE, is based on such a minuscule amount of REAL playing time that it's virtually irrelevant.

To go further, it wouldn't be out of wack to say that in those two years after he was drafted as the 224th player, he showed more as a pass rushing DE than a lot of the guys we've had here that got major contracts elsewhere.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Athletically, Ratliff stacks up well with the best in the business. He's a better athlete than Darnell Dockett and not too far off from JJ Watt, even though I'm sure Watt had a lot more resources at his disposal to prepare for the Combine, where as Ratliff wasn't even invited.

He "played" DE (if you want to even call it that, since as a 7th round pick, he was purely a rotational guy) for all of 2 years, starting just 1 game in those two years, and even still he racked up 5 sacks, 4 of them in his second year.

To contrast, Spears has NEVER had a 4 sack season. Neither had Bowen until this year in Was, Neither had Canty until this year in NY. Neither had Hatcher, until this year.

By 2007, he was the starting NT after Ferguson went down. The idea that he "failed at DE", which is what a lot of people love saying in response to those that suggest the move back to DE, is based on such a minuscule amount of REAL playing time that it's virtually irrelevant.

To go further, it wouldn't be out of wack to say that in those two years after he was drafted as the 224th player, he showed more as a pass rushing DE than a lot of the guys we've had here that got major contracts elsewhere.

Hey you don't have to convince me of Spears pass rush abilitly. LOL!

And keep in mind that it's not Spears that's starting, but Hatcher, who did reasonably well as a pass rusher.

It still comes down to finding someone who can play the nose and provide pass-rush.

Soliai? No sacks. 2 QB hits and like 5 pressures for 450 snaps. Ah... no.

Poe? He of one sack this past college season? I don't think so.

 

[TheCount]

It still comes down to finding someone who can play the nose and provide pass-rush.

Soliai? No sacks. 2 QB hits and like 5 pressures for 450 snaps. Ah... no.

Poe? He of one sack this past college season? I don't think so.

I think this is where we differ then, because I don't need a pass rush from my NT. I'll gladly take it from the ends, from my NT I want someone that collapses the pocket, requires a double team on every down and prevents the QB from stepping up.

Ratliff can do most of those things, but as games wear on and as the season wears on, he seems to be less of a factor. He also sometimes gets completely erased from plays with double teams, which is unacceptable.

 

[YosemiteSam]

No, that was his Franchise Tag amount.

That is what he made last year. ($12M) If they franchised him this year it would be closer to $15M.

 

[Aliencowboy]

Right, Solaili doesn't having amazing stats. No sacks ect,
However, the defense ranked 5th against the run in Miami !!!!

I think this is where we differ then, because I don't need a pass rush from my NT. I'll gladly take it from the ends, from my NT I want someone that collapses the pocket, requires a double team on every down and prevents the QB from stepping up.

Ratliff can do most of those things, but as games wear on and as the season wears on, he seems to be less of a factor. He also sometimes gets completely erased from plays with double teams, which is unacceptable.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I think this is where we differ then, because I don't need a pass rush from my NT. I'll gladly take it from the ends, from my NT I want someone that collapses the pocket, requires a double team on every down and prevents the QB from stepping up.

Ratliff can do most of those things, but as games wear on and as the season wears on, he seems to be less of a factor. He also sometimes gets completely erased from plays with double teams, which is unacceptable.

Yeah, but you still need to find a NT who "collapses" the pocket.

It's like this... If a NT isn't getting at least a couple sacks a season, then you can probably take it to the bank that they aren't so hot when it comes to getting off the line of scrimmage and collapsing the pocket.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Right, Solaili doesn't having amazing stats. No sacks ect,
However, the defense ranked 5th against the run in Miami !!!!

The Dolphins gave up 95.6 ypg vs the run.

The Cowboys gave up 99.1 ypg.

Looks like a wash to me.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

Right, Solaili doesn't having amazing stats. No sacks ect,
However, the defense ranked 5th against the run in Miami !!!!

And Dallas ranked 7th against the run !!!!!

What was your point?

 

[TheCount]

Yeah, but you still need to find a NT who "collapses" the pocket.

It's like this... If a NT isn't getting at least a couple sacks a season, then you can probably take it to the bank that they aren't so hot when it comes to getting off the line of scrimmage and collapsing the pocket.

You're going to go broke making bets like that. :laugh2:

Not only do I disagree, I don't even know what you're basing that on. Casey Hampton has 9 sacks in 11 years, it's a wonder he's still in the NFL, right?

Sacks are great when you can get them from a NT, but sacks are only a part of evaluating a NT's performance. You are talking as if they sacks are the be all, end all and I know even you don't believe that.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

You're going to go broke making bets like that. :laugh2:

Not only do I disagree, I don't even know what you're basing that on. Casey Hampton has 9 sacks in 11 years, it's a wonder he's still in the NFL, right?

Sacks are great when you can get them from a NT, but sacks are only a part of evaluating a NT's performance. You are talking as if they sacks are the be all, end all and I know even you don't believe that.

He never said anything about sacks or the lack of making you a bad NT.

He was talking about the contribution to pass rush, Hampton did not play in a lot on nickel situations.

 

[Noryb]

You're going to go broke making bets like that. :laugh2:

Not only do I disagree, I don't even know what you're basing that on. Casey Hampton has 9 sacks in 11 years, it's a wonder he's still in the NFL, right?

Sacks are great when you can get them from a NT, but sacks are only a part of evaluating a NT's performance. You are talking as if they sacks are the be all, end all and I know even you don't believe that.

Can you imagine how this board would be if Ratliff had 9 sacks in 11 years?

If you don't use sacks and pressures to measure a DL effectiveness as a rusher, what do you use? How exactly do you measure "pocket collapses"?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

He never said anything about sacks or the lack of making you a bad NT.

He was talking about the contribution to pass rush, Hampton did not play in a lot on nickel situations.

Correct.

Plus Casey Hampton isn't the example I would use when it comes to the "gold standard" of NT play.

The guy hasn't had a good season in 4 years.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Can you imagine how this board would be if Ratliff had 9 sacks in 11 years?

If you don't use sacks and pressures to measure a DL effectiveness as a rusher, what do you use? How exactly do you measure "pocket collapses"?

That's the one right there.

They don't want a NT who can contribute sacks and QB hits... But a guy who almost gets there.

Far more valuable.

 

[Noryb]

That's the one right there.

They don't want a NT who can contribute sacks and QB hits... But a guy who almost gets there.

Far more valuable.

If people think moving Ratliff to DE would improve our rush defense, which wasn't bad, then I'm all for it. But saying it would improve our pass rush doesn't make sense to me. Adding a Justin Smith or J. J. Watt to the DE position to go with Ratt is what would take our pass rush to the next level, not to mention improving our secondary.

Soliai has 2 sacks in his entire 5 yr career, but I bet he collapses the heck out of that pocket......