Success of backs due to line

gimmesix

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Lassic was the 11th RB in that draft. He was a 4th round pick.

Coleman is is considered a top 5 and possibly top 3 RB in this draft. Ajayi is right there with Coleman is his knee is not a problem.

A better comparison to Lassic would be somebody like Cameron Artis-Payne or Matt Jones.

Backs fail in every round. The point of this comparison was how backups fair when they are pressed into a starting role, and I used Lassic because he was the first one to immediately come to mind where the team wasn't looking to replace its starter. I'm sure there are many other examples that can be used, and some of them will shine favorably on the backups ... most of whom likely went on to hold starting roles.
 

gimmesix

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The lack of good statistical measures doesn't make YPC a good indicator.

A running back could be averaging 3.1 ypc in a game because the offensive line is horrible and there are no offensive weapons on the outsides. If a team wants to sell out to stop the run, they usually can do that. The problem is when an offense doesn't have the ability to make a team pay for that.

If a back is averaging 3.1 on a consistent basis, then I believe the problem is deeper than the line. Much like if a quarterback is completing under 50 percent of his passes on a consistent basis. You can blame the line or the lack of offensive weapons, but it's likely the quarterback is part of the problem.

I agree that it's hard to tell much from one game, though. There needs to be more evidence than that to draw a conclusion. It's better to go back and study all the factors involved, but who has time for that?
 

Beast_from_East

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I think we are all in agreement that you just cant grab somebody out of the stands and put them behind your massive o-line and expect monster numbers. You have to have a good back to pair with your good offensive line. I think you can also conclude that the better your running back, the better your running game if your line stays at the same level.

The question then becomes, is whoever replaces Murray of equal, greater, or lessor talent? I think you will find out by looking at the numbers they produce.
 

gimmesix

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I think we are all in agreement that you just cant grab somebody out of the stands and put them behind your massive o-line and expect monster numbers. You have to have a good back to pair with your good offensive line. I think you can also conclude that the better your running back, the better your running game if your line stays at the same level.

I don't think we're all in agreement about that from what I've read on this site. The good news is that I certainly believe Dallas is in agreement about that, otherwise the team would not have brought in McFadden and would not have brought in most of the top backs in the draft for a visit.
 

MichaelWinicki

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I wrote that the sample size is small in my OP. That's why I also included the years Felix and DeMarco both started for comparative purposes.

I also agree that Lassic isn't anywhere close to as talented as Emmitt Smith, but I'm not sure McFadden (at this point), Williams, Randle and Dunbar are close to as talented as Murray. I'm not sure that a back we draft will be close to as talented as Murray. It seems to be a given here that they will be because of our offensive line, while I don't believe that anything is a given ... if it was, a whole lot of teams wouldn't have missed on running backs in the draft over all these years.

I do think McFadden has shown the ability to be the lead dog in the past, but he's three years removed from it.

Well there are so many reasons why a back could fail in a particular situation... Only one of which having their own lack of talent.

Look at Justin Forsett and what he was able to accomplish last season with Baltimore.

Prior to last season he would have been labeled as a not-very-successful running back. Heck one season he averaged 3.2 ypc.

Last year he fell into the right situation. Right offensive mindset. Good offensive line.

I can see Dallas offering the same "right situation" for many backs.
 

gimmesix

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Well there are so many reasons why a back could fail in a particular situation... Only one of which having their own lack of talent.

Look at Justin Forsett and what he was able to accomplish last season with Baltimore.

Prior to last season he would have been labeled as a not-very-successful running back. Heck one season he averaged 3.2 ypc.

Last year he fell into the right situation. Right offensive mindset. Good offensive line.

I can see Dallas offering the same "right situation" for many backs.

That's why I can't completely discount McFadden, but I'd say backs emerging like Forsett are more the exception than the rule.
 

MichaelWinicki

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That's why I can't completely discount McFadden, but I'd say backs emerging like Forsett are more the exception than the rule.

If I recall McFadden's best seasons at Oakland were when Frank was the offensive line coach and they were running a ZBS.

If that was the case I could see a "Forsett-season" here for McFadden.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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One of the lines of thinking this offseason is that Dallas' offensive line can make virtually any running back successful. So I got to thinking about the validity of that statement and it took me back to 1993.

The reason for that is it was Emmitt Smith's best year behind a line that some use as an excuse to dismiss him in conversations about the greatest backs ever. It was the only year he averaged more than 5 yards per carry (5.3) in his career and he won NFL MVP.

He also held out that preseason for more money, which left Dallas opening the season with Derrick Lassic at running back. Lassic averaged 3.8 yards per carry overall as the starter, but he did open the season with a 4.7 game and averaged 4.3 in this third and final game in that role. (Emmitt didn't start that third game, but averaged 5.6 yards on 8 carries in it.)

So there was a 1.5-yard drop-off per carry compared to Smith in the starting role. In the game where Lassic got his most carries (19), he also had his worst average (2.7). He also had two fumbles in that game and lost one as Dallas lost two of its first three games.

Dallas only lost two more games that season. (Smith did have four games out of 14 where he averaged less than 4.2 yards per carry.)

However, this is only a small sample to look at ... so knowing that DeMarco Murray missed a lot of games his first two seasons (only starting about half of them), I thought I'd also look at his numbers compared to the others who started.

In 2011, Murray started seven games and averaged 5.5 YPC. His per-game average was less than 4.0 in 2 of his 7 games. Dallas was 4-3 in games he started that year.

Felix Jones started eight games that season and averaged 4.1 in those games (almost a yard and a half per carry less than Murray as a starter). He averaged less than 4.0 in 5 of 8 games (2.6, 2.8, 3.6, 1.7, 2.7). He did have two 100-yard games as a starter (with 8.2 and 4.9 averages in those games).

Tashard Choice started the other game and averaged 4.0, but only had 2 carries for 8 yards.

Dallas was 4-5 in games started by someone other than Murray.

The next year, Murray averaged 4.1, but less than 4.0 in 6 of 10 starts. Dallas was 5-5 in the games he started, and 3-3 in the games started by Jones.

Jones averaged a full yard less (3.1) in 6 starts and less than 4 yards per carry in 4 of 6 starts (2.9, 1.5, 4.3, 4.4, 3.1, 2.3).

So, not considering any other factors, this shows that there is at least a yard to a 1.5-yard drop-off from a quality back to an average/below-average one behind Dallas' lines. Obviously, the line Dallas had this year was better than the ones it had in 2011 and 2012, but Murray's average was 4.7 behind that line.

If we get a similar drop-off from Murray than the combined backs will averaged around 3.7 per carry at best. Of course, we don't know if who we put out there will be better or worse than Murray, but I do think the evidence shows that you can't put just anyone out there and expect the line to make up that much of a difference.

This argument has been hashed out using anecdotes plenty of times. Lassic and whoever the other SEC scrub Lacewell drafted taht failed doesn't mean that a good OL cannot make a good RB look great.
 

percyhoward

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Short yardage and Goal Line
Murray only

2011-2013: 27 of 41 65.9%
2014: 19 of 21 (first 8 games) 90.5%
2014: 27 of 34 (full season) 79.4%
 

thisiscowboyscountry

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One of the lines of thinking this offseasoincluded. is that Dallas' offensive line can make virtually any running back successful. So I got to thinking about the validity of that statement and it took me back to 1993.

The reason for that is it was Emmitt Smith's best year behind a line that some use as an excuse to dismiss him in conversations about the greatest backs ever. It was the only year he averaged more than 5 yards per carry (5.3) in his career and he won NFL MVP.

He also held out that preseason for more money, which left Dallas opening the season with Derrick Lassic at running back. Lassic averaged 3.8 yards per carry overall as the starter, but he did open the season with a 4.7 game and averaged 4.3 in this third and final game in that role. (Emmitt didn't start that third game, but averaged 5.6 yards on 8 carries in it.)

So there was a 1.5-yard drop-off per carry compared to Smith in the starting role. In the game where Lassic got his most carries (19), he also had his worst average (2.7). He also had two fumbles in that game and lost one as Dallas lost two of its first three games.

Dallas only lost two more games that season. (Smith did have four games out of 14 where he averaged less than 4.2 yards per carry.)

However, this is only a small sample to look at ... so knowing that DeMarco Murray missed a lot of games his first two seasons (only starting about half of them), I thought I'd also look at his numbers compared to the others who started.

In 2011, Murray started seven games and averaged 5.5 YPC. His per-game average was less than 4.0 in 2 of his 7 games. Dallas was 4-3 in games he started that year.

Felix Jones started eight games that season and averaged 4.1 in those games (almost a yard and a half per carry less than Murray as a starter). He averaged less than 4.0 in 5 of 8 games (2.6, 2.8, 3.6, 1.7, 2.7). He did have two 100-yard games as a starter (with 8.2 and 4.9 averages in those games).

Tashard Choice started the other game and averaged 4.0, but only had 2 carries for 8 yards.

Dallas was 4-5 in games started by someone other than Murray.

The next year, Murray averaged 4.1, but less than 4.0 in 6 of 10 starts. Dallas was 5-5 in the games he started, and 3-3 in the games started by Jones.

Jones averaged a full yard less (3.1) in 6 starts and less than 4 yards per carry in 4 of 6 starts (2.9, 1.5, 4.3, 4.4, 3.1, 2.3).

So, not considering any other factors, this shows that there is at least a yard to a 1.5-yard drop-off from a quality back to an average/below-average one behind Dallas' lines. Obviously, the line Dallas had this year was better than the ones it had in 2011 and 2012, but Murray's average was 4.7 behind that line.

If we get a similar drop-off from Murray than the combined backs will averaged around 3.7 per carry at best. Of course, we don't know if who we put out there will be better or worse than Murray, but I do think the evidence shows that you can't put just anyone out there and expect the line to make up that much of a difference.

There are a lot of backs who could average atleast 4.2 behind this line. Darren Mcfadden included. Not to discount Murrays outstanding season, but
An Rb by committee could wind up being very affective.
 

TrailBlazer

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Murray isn't Smith. Period. Wanted too much money and wasn't getting it here. Murray was a product of the zone blocking scheme and the studs upfront executing it. Whoever runs behind that line will be just fine. No doubt in my mind Dallas made the right call NOT to resign murray.
 

T-RO

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True, but if you recall in 2013 there were several games were Murray was killing it. The Lions game comes to mind when Murray was averaging like 8 YPC in the first half. We were up by 23 and for some reason Garrett came out in the 2nd half and ran him only 7 times the rest of the game. And he was still doing it after Romo threw 2 picks. I even recall one of the Lions players calling out the Cowboys saying "thank you for abandoning the run. The Cowboys are a great running team, but they always go away from it. Thats what they do".

I personally think that Garrett has no business on the offensive side of the ball. Its no coincidence that after 8 years of a pass happy offense the first year that a real OC got to call the offense all on his own, we became a ground and pound monster running team.

Interesting post but you didn't finish the math. 1.5 yards per run is in my thinking a wildly unsubstantiated difference, but let's run with that.

A typical starting running back might get 20 carries. So the difference even if your theory is correct--is 30 yards. That's one reception from a top tier receiver. The passing game--and stopping the passing game is where value is in the NFL.

When have the Patriots had a good running back?
 

khiladi

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Maybe......and I know I'm probably going into uncharted territory here.....but maybe the OL and Murray are both good.

I don't think anybody disputes that Murray was good. They do believe his 'good' is replaceable though...
 

mahoneybill

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3 of Dallas' five starting lineman were on Dallas before Emmitt Smith came along. Tuinei, Newton, Stepnoski and the other two, Gogan and Gesek, if I remember correctly, started between the two prior. As Newton use to say, Emmitt made their job easy.

Great point. The RB senses where the best hole is, and makes the line look better. Emmitt was the master at that.
 

khiladi

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Great point. The RB senses where the best hole is, and makes the line look better. Emmitt was the master at that.

Barry Sanders could juke like no other, but he didn't have anywhere near the vision Emmitt had. I remember he never use to have that break-away speed but he had an ability like no other of sensing the hole before it opened and hitting it immediately, that acceleration was straight out the gate.

The guy was phenomenal and just as much an impact player in Florida when I looked at his history in Florida. He was always under-valued. Lucky for us, he 'fell'...
 

Z mann R2

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Joseph Randle Avg'd 6.7 yards/carry last year
Demarco Murray? 4.7 yards/carry

Our OL will make any decent back, much better than they really are
 

mahoneybill

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Barry Sanders could juke like no other, but he didn't have anywhere near the vision Emmitt had. I remember he never use to have that break-away speed but he had an ability like no other of sensing the hole before it opened and hitting it immediately, that acceleration was straight out the gate.

The guy was phenomenal and just as much an impact player in Florida when I looked at his history in Florida. He was always under-valued. Lucky for us, he 'fell'...

Agree, and there were several times when that sense for the hole, netted him some long gainers, as Irvin loved to block downfield....
 
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