Recap: Talkin Cowboys 5.14

[Proximo]

Obviously. But it's okay that I have a concern, isn't it? I mean you allow me that option, right?

If what i said is obvious then why'd you ask the question?

And I think we all have concern. Any time a trade up like that is made there's going to be some significant risk. We need this kid to pan out.

And yes, I allow you the option to be concerned.

 

[casmith07]

• 24 new players

• Ready to pick Shazier but he went to Pit. How different couldve gone if Dal picked him? Wouldve been Will, Carter wouldve been the SAM.

Some of us have been saying this since last training camp.

 

[Proximo]

Some of us have been saying this since last training camp.

Dude Carter in general has been such an enigma to me. He's frickin carved out of granite, looks the part, and plays the part (sometimes). He's turned into one of those sort of fringe guys that we need to pan out. And I can't believe I'm saying that after his 2012 performance when he looked like the truth before he got injured. He was a guy I as rooting for since he got drafted so I'm hoping he rises to he challenge this offseason and lives up to his potential in 2014.

 

[Hardline]

I could care less about big hitting safeties. I want safeties that can prevent the WR or TE they are covering from catching the ball.

 

[cowboys1981]

A safety that delivers big hits is not a good thing with the current rules. Thus a sad statement about the direction of the NFL if you think about it.

Exactly! In the 90's that would've worked. Now a days they must rely more on coverage skills. Back then a hard hitter could affect how receivers ran routes; especially in the middle of the field. Receivers today have the peace of mind of roaming around the middle of the field.

 

[TheCount]

This is my concern. With his size being rangy, he would get worn down by holding up a tackle on run downs.

So he is a pass rush specialist.

If he struggles in transition to the bigs at all in the pass rush, then what?

Isn't that the question for every player drafted?

 

[Bluestang]

Keep in mind that I listened to both the On Air w/ McClay and Talkin Cowboys...

Per Will McClay, Lawrence is purely going to rush the passer and then they will slowly transition him to defend the run. This plan is what Marinelli has set for the kid and wants to develop him that way.

What they don't want him to do is have to second guess his responsibilities to start out.

In this 4-3 defense the SAM and the strong side DE will play alot of games. This is why the Boys wanted Shazier because they felt he would make the strong side DE better but now with Lawrence they feel like the opposite will happen and the SAM will be better.

Has anyone looked at how rookie DEs/3-4 OLBs fair out in their rookie year? I would seriously disregard stats this first year because of what history tells us...

 

[TwoDeep3]

I agree, but from what Dallas is saying theyre rotating this DL alot this yr. And atleast let him play a game first before you call him a liability

Could be a liability. Which is what I said.

I have read and heard comments about this player and the fear he could get mauled in the run game and wear him out for the passing game. I'm just beginning up a point to consider.

I do not claim to be a draft expert, nor have a crystal ball and know what his future will be. The team scares me sometimes when they make bold moves like this.

 

[jnday]

The seahawks won the superbowl by hitting everything in sight. So these kinds of statements mean nothing

It means nothing until a dumb penalty cost the Cowboys a win. Big hits equal penalties with the current rules. It happens every Sunday.

 

[jnday]

I understand what this means. I am not sold on giving up two picks to get this guy who could be a liability in the run game.

If you will go back and research the opinions about Lawrence pre-draft that came from the posters on this board, you will find that many posters here didn't think Lawrence was worth a third, much less a second and third. I spent half a hour researching the general opinions that were expressed concerning Lawrence and I found out that very , very few posters on this board had a high opinion of him. These same posters now say that they loved the pick and they had no problem with trading up. Of course this was caused by Jerry when he drafted Lawrence. It amazes me how a fan changes their opinion just because he is a draft pick of the team.

 

[Screw The Hall]

My guess is this in reference to Jerry downplaying the notion that they would draft Manziel in his pre draft press conference. JJ probably could've created more trade interest if he kept his mouth shut instead of telling the world they had no interest in drafting him days before the draft. Just a thought.

That's a ridiculous notion. I'm not a JJ fan but that's not how the draft works. If teams believe you want a specific player you might encourage trade interest but it's not with you, it's with the teams above you because you are the one they are afraid of taking said player. How obvious is that?

The angle you play when you are trying to trade down isn't your interest in a player but other teams' interest that may be trying to trade up into your spot. If you were actually interested you'd take the player and not trade it away, lol.

 

[IrishAnto]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but it would have been interesting if they would have traded back to Cleveland and received a 3rd. So now we have 26,47 and 2 3rds.

26 - Jimmy Ward
34 - Lawrence (still do the trade with Washington - giving them 47 and a 3rd)
78 - Trai Turner

If we’ve have picked Ward in the first, that would almost certainly put the kybosh on Wilcox’s career as a Cowboy.

So in effect we’d have given up on a 3rd from last year to pick one this year.

I don’t see that as progressing.

 

[IrishAnto]

I understand what this means. I am not sold on giving up two picks to get this guy who could be a liability in the run game.

I don’t think Ware was an immovable object against the run his first year, but he turned out all right.

Give the man a chance.

 

[DBOY3141]

If we’ve have picked Ward in the first, that would almost certainly put the kybosh on Wilcox’s career as a Cowboy.

So in effect we’d have given up on a 3rd from last year to pick one this year.

I don’t see that as progressing.

Unless they believe that Wilcox can play SS. They are high on Matt Johnson and his ability to play FS, so I'm sure they are thinking that the future tandum of Johnson/Wilcox could be in the cards. Time will tell.

 

[IrishAnto]

If you will go back and research the opinions about Lawrence pre-draft that came from the posters on this board, you will find that many posters here didn't think Lawrence was worth a third, much less a second and third. I spent half a hour researching the general opinions that were expressed concerning Lawrence and I found out that very , very few posters on this board had a high opinion of him. These same posters now say that they loved the pick and they had no problem with trading up. Of course this was caused by Jerry when he drafted Lawrence. It amazes me how a fan changes their opinion just because he is a draft pick of the team.

You have to ask yourself how most of the posters formed their opinion of him.

Hours of game tape study or a couple of youTube clips and going along with the then current mainstream (on this board) opinion.

 

[Rockport]

Dude Carter in general has been such an enigma to me. He's frickin carved out of granite, looks the part, and plays the part (sometimes). He's turned into one of those sort of fringe guys that we need to pan out. And I can't believe I'm saying that after his 2012 performance when he looked like the truth before he got injured. He was a guy I as rooting for since he got drafted so I'm hoping he rises to he challenge this offseason and lives up to his potential in 2014.

I wonder what Carter's Wunderlick score was.

 

[IrishAnto]

Unless they believe that Wilcox can play SS. They are high on Matt Johnson and his ability to play FS, so I'm sure they are thinking that the future tandum of Johnson/Wilcox could be in the cards. Time will tell.

They may view Wilcox as a SS, but while Church is healthy he's highly unlikely to get much of a chance.

I get the feeling they think Wilcox has enough athleticism to play FS; he just needs the experience to develop his game, experience he wouldn't get if we'd drafted Ward.

 

[Star Guard_31]

That's a ridiculous notion. I'm not a JJ fan but that's not how the draft works. If teams believe you want a specific player you might encourage trade interest but it's not with you, it's with the teams above you because you are the one they are afraid of taking said player. How obvious is that?

The angle you play when you are trying to trade down isn't your interest in a player but other teams' interest that may be trying to trade up into your spot. If you were actually interested you'd take the player and not trade it away, lol.

As I believe they thoroughly explained on Talkin Cowboys, feigning interest in a player you're not really interested in does benefit you. In the example Broaddus provided, if Jerry leads other teams to believe he covets a player, teams legitimately interested in said player then attempt to trade up and move ahead of you in the draft, as you stated. However, doing so forces a higher ranked player -- perhaps one that you do genuinely want -- to fall to you. Case in point, if a team had traded into Pittsburgh's selection because they wanted Manziel and they expected us to take him, that transaction would have caused Shazier to drop to us. We now know Shazier was the player they wanted all along and that Martin was the consolation prize. With that in mind, it's easy to see how expressing artificial interest in a player would have benefited us by allowing us to draft Shazier, a player we had ranked higher on our board.

 

[BigStar]

Actually, I've been tossing a theory atound in my head and I'll state it here to see what yall think. The NFL has been devaluing rbs for some years now but it seems to me that the 2 best teams in the league have done something similar with the qb position. SF ans Seattle may not have done it as a plan but either way they are built the same way, build your team by using your cap space on other positions then get a qb through the draft that way he doesnt have to be great for you to be successful.

This may be contrarian thinking but if you have a top 8 qb in this league then you're going to pay from 15 to 25 million a year for his services, in a salary cap era the rest of the team is sure to suffer from that. But what's an owner to do, everyone says that when you have an elite qb that you have to keep him because its so few of them around and if you don't sign him everyone will say that you're a fool. Just think of how far the Ravens would be ahead of their return to a seriously competitive state if they didn't sign Flacco who wasn't worth franchise qb money.

The NFL has done a great job in increasing it's popularity by making the game more offensive therefore putting more importance on the qb in turn making instant starts. What if a a team doesnt follow the NFLs marketing strategy to build their team, what if they valued building the lines vs finding the ever elusive "elite" qb. For one, an injury to the qb wouldn't be a season ender as is the case in NO, Denver, GB, Pitts and NE. Anther would be that you would probably have a great running game because of your olines dominance.

These 2 teams maybe built this way due to their hc coaches coming from the college level where the starting qb may only start 2 years or more then they have to find another one so they never really have stability at that position.The Seattle Seahawks traded for Terrell Pryor in the offseason, if Wilson goes down then I think that he can "bus drive" them to a few wins because the rest of the team is so good.

The reason I made this comment is because JJ may just be doing what these two west coast franchise have had success doing over the last 3 years, build your olin and dline and fit everything else in including qb,

Great post and general insight into our future, and the present-future way of the league. I agree with you on how those two HCs are structuring their teams; it would surprise me if either give their QBs the big second contract. It probably does stem from how they are accustomed to running teams as a result of their recent college experience/success. The NFL surely wouldn't like it, as it takes away from the golden boy QB marketing standard they have established as you have mentioned. It would also result in an increase in uglier/slower paced games in the long run which would turn off "casual" fans, etc. It seems that most SB teams have met the QB standard, with SEA and 2001 Baltimore being the recent exceptions. The last couple of seasons have shown this new method to be succesful, especially in the playoffs where you can minimize risk and rely more on your OL/DL talent. Again, great post!

 

[dware94]

That's a ridiculous notion. I'm not a JJ fan but that's not how the draft works. If teams believe you want a specific player you might encourage trade interest but it's not with you, it's with the teams above you because you are the one they are afraid of taking said player. How obvious is that?

The angle you play when you are trying to trade down isn't your interest in a player but other teams' interest that may be trying to trade up into your spot. If you were actually interested you'd take the player and not trade it away, lol.

No, its not a ridiculous notion. If you can't see why it's a good idea to keep your mouth shut regarding all players before the draft, then I can't help you. Read Star Guards post above, and you will see how it benefits you to keep quiet. I'm not trying to bash JJ, but you would think any guy that runs a business should know not to tip your hand.