The 3-3-1-4. How will it work?

[Rampage]

Our linemen don't suck.. its the scheme we put our linemen in that sucked.

against the run thay are great. against the pass they suck.

 

[CATCH17]

against the run thay are great. against the pass they suck.

Ask Jim Jeffcoat why they suck against the pass.

 

[DipChit]

Our linemen don't suck.. its the scheme we put our linemen in that sucked.

How do you know they dont suck? What have they ever showed you to believe otherwise? Especially as it pertains to pass rushing skills at this level.

Spears and Canty.. 2 sacks between them. Totally unacceptable. It wouldnt really be acceptable even if all our LB's were pass rushing machines.. but since they're not it's all the more reason why we need more out of those 2 guys.

Wares in a crappy scheme too supposedly but we see every game why he doesnt suck. Could he do even better in a diff scheme? Perhaps he would.

But he doesnt have to switch to that to prove he's a player.

 

[CATCH17]

Its hard enough for DE's in a 3-4 to get a sack as it is.

So when you have only 1 guy who can get legit pressure on the Quarterback mixed with a defense that doesn't allow you to stunt its going to be hard to sack Quarterbacks.

 

[DipChit]

Its hard enough for DE's in a 3-4 to get a sack as it is.

So when you have only 1 guy who can get legit pressure on the Quarterback mixed with a defense that doesn't allow you to stunt its going to be hard to sack Quarterbacks.

Eh.. other 3-4 DE's get sacks on the other 3-4 teams. Whether it was Leonard Marshall getting tons of em on Bills old teams or teams that run them today.

And if thats just because the rest of the LB's were/are so good as opposed to our "1 legit guy", it's just more proof that our front 7 as a whole isnt all that.

Maybe thats Bills problem in a nutshell. He wants to run the exact same defense and for that to happen with any large degree of success he needs Spears to get 10 sacks and Canty to get 5. Thats what his stout teams used to get out of their positions.

Could be Norv's excuse too for never getting another Triplets as of yet.

Look, people can assume we have all this talent if they want to. I'm not sure what they base that on.. college prowess? Well whatever.. I'm more of a show me guy when it comes to playing at this level. You start making plays, I'll assume your good. You dont, I wont.. even if it's not as many as you otherwise might make in a different "scheme"... no matter what position you play on the field.

 

[theogt]

Players have admitted that they are instructed to not rush the passer when they would normally be doing so. Accordingly, many times when you see Canty and Spears not getting pressure it is because they are asked not to.

It's impossible to know to what extent scheme took away from the ends' pass-rush ability. We do have evidence, however, that it affected their ability at least to some extent such that it frustrated the players. Next year is year 3 for Canty and Spears and they're getting a new coordinator. At that point we should be able to judge the quality of the players much bettter.

 

[Rampage]

Players have admitted that they are instructed to not rush the passer when they would normally be doing so. Accordingly, many times when you see Canty and Spears not getting pressure it is because they are asked not to.

It's impossible to know to what extent scheme took away from the ends' pass-rush ability. We do have evidence, however, that it affected their ability at least to some extent such that it frustrated the players. Next year is year 3 for Canty and Spears and they're getting a new coordinator. At that point we should be able to judge the quality of the players much bettter.

what would be a reason for that?

 

[DipChit]

Players have admitted that they are instructed to not rush the passer when they would normally be doing so. Accordingly, many times when you see Canty and Spears not getting pressure it is because they are asked not to.

Admitted? I know Spears has said "it's not his (nor Cantys nor Fergys) job.. we stuff the run to get them to 3rd down" but I generally call BS because what happens then on 1st and 2nd down pass plays? Pull out a power bar and take the time to have a quick snack?

*If* thats the case it's only because they realize it'd be pointless to turn any of them loose in the first place. Theres absolutely no other justification for it because if you only otherwise rush 1 "legit" guy (Ware) "for realz" you'll have no shot. Or is that actually better than 0 as was supposedly the case in Zimmers 4-3?

I could almost buy it if it was Zimmers call, but I dont with BP here cause the 3-4 is his gig and he didnt play it that way in the past.. expecting nothing out of the DE's in the passing game. Or was getting a dozen or more sacks from his DE's in the past just a fluke that he didnt care about either way?

Regardless though it's no surprise then that opposing teams have a higher 1st down passer rating against us than any other team.

 

[theogt]

I wish I could pull the quote, but at the time I took at it has they were instructed to clog lanes and play the run and not rush the passer as 3-4 DEs. You can see this pretty clearly in the games. On first down pass plays there are times where the ends are basically just holding their ground. There are other times on 1st down pass plays where it is clear they are charging forward towards the passer. It either means that (1) they're taking plays off, or (2) they're doing what they're told.

I don't buy the "it was Parcell's defense" line because it was obvious that Zimmer was drawing up the plays and calling them on the sidelines. Parcells may set the parameters, but that seems to be what most head coaches do.

 

[Rampage]

I wish I could pull the quote, but at the time I took at it has they were instructed to clog lanes and play the run and not rush the passer as 3-4 DEs.

I don't buy the "it was Parcell's defense" line because it was obvious that Zimmer was drawing up the plays and calling them on the sidelines. Parcells may set the parameters, but that seems to be what most head coaches do.

but we are talking about not getting pressure on passing downs

 

[theogt]

but we are talking about not getting pressure on passing downs

No, we're not. On many passing downs these guys aren't even on the field, because we switch to a nickel and substitute players. We're talking about Canty and Spears as 3-4 DEs. They're only 3-4 DEs on non-passing plays.

 

[TEK2000]

Admitted? I know Spears has said "it's not his (nor Cantys nor Fergys) job.. we stuff the run to get them to 3rd down" but I generally call BS because what happens then on 1st and 2nd down pass plays? Pull out a power bar and take the time to have a quick snack?

*If* thats the case it's only because they realize it'd be pointless to turn any of them loose in the first place. Theres absolutely no other justification for it because if you only otherwise rush 1 "legit" guy (Ware) "for realz" you'll have no shot. Or is that actually better than 0 as was supposedly the case in Zimmers 4-3?

I could almost buy it if it was Zimmers call, but I dont with BP here cause the 3-4 is his gig and he didnt play it that way in the past.. expecting nothing out of the DE's in the passing game. Or was getting a dozen or more sacks from his DE's in the past just a fluke that he didnt care about either way?

Regardless though it's no surprise then that opposing teams have a higher 1st down passer rating against us than any other team.

Do you believe that we've lacked the talent to put pressure on the QB through Zimmer's entire tenure as DC?

All of the "Pass Rush Specialists" that we've rolled through Zimmer's defense ALWAYS seemed to underperform. Ebenezer Ekuban's first year outside of a Zimmer defense was a career season for him... and he did consistently better than he did while he was in Dallas every year after that.

If a player says "its not our job to put pressure on the QB"... then its pretty apparent that they are being taught that their position is not to put pressure on the QB and they are primarily to play the run. Do you think this is the kind of teachings the Chargers, Steelers, Patriots or Ravens staffs teach their defensive linemen? I would think not when you consider the way those players play.

I was talking to my brother earlier about remembering watching Marcus Spears when he was at LSU. The guy was very quick, agile, and very capable of beating offensive linemen to get to the QB. Now all the sudden when he's playing for our staff (Zimmer), he looks slow and doesn't show any of the signs of being the player he was in college.

I don't doubt for a minute that our players are very capable of being near as effective as the other good 3-4 DE's, I doubt the way they've been taught how to play their positions.

 

[Rack]

Amen, Rack. A good pass rush will make an average secondary look like pro bowlers.

Works for the Eagles.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I wish I could pull the quote, but at the time I took at it has they were instructed to clog lanes and play the run and not rush the passer as 3-4 DEs. You can see this pretty clearly in the games. On first down pass plays there are times where the ends are basically just holding their ground. There are other times on 1st down pass plays where it is clear they are charging forward towards the passer. It either means that (1) they're taking plays off, or (2) they're doing what they're told.

I don't buy the "it was Parcell's defense" line because it was obvious that Zimmer was drawing up the plays and calling them on the sidelines. Parcells may set the parameters, but that seems to be what most head coaches do.

But ogt the fact is having your starting three defensive lineman generate 2 sacks over an entire 16 games is unacceptable... 3-4 or not.

 

[theogt]

But ogt the fact is having your starting three defensive lineman generate 2 sacks over an entire 16 games is unacceptable... 3-4 or not.

Oh, I certainly agree. I wasn't advocating for their role to be to not rush the passer. I was simply saying that it seems possible that in fact their job was to not rush the passer, under Zimmer. This year will be a much better test with a new DC and the DEs being another year older.

 

[DipChit]

Oh I could dig up Spears comments if I really cared to.. it's was what I said he said above plus stuff like..you wont see sacks from this defense on first and second down. Sacks are going to come on 3rd down.. the coaches will be pleased that we held em to 75 yards rushing..yada yada. But again.. other teams do actually pass on 1st and 2nd down believe it or not.

All I know is it's not good enough.. and I could be dead wrong.. our guys could be wonderful pass rushers if we "let" them.

I must admit the opposite scenario would be more believeable.. cause we were so hell bent on getting to the QB and we actually did it, that our rush defense suffered. There couldnt be any denying they were good pass rushers then. As it stands though I have no reason to believe they are good... scheme or no scheme.

Trevor Pryce went to Baltimore and got 13 sacks as a 3-4 DE.. and you bet I hang alot of that on their scheme. But I saw that the guy was a stud watching him play here in Denver for a number of years where he was getting double digits in the 4-3 (before he got tweaked) so it was no surprise to me. I'm pretty sure I'd be surprised if Spears or Canty ended up in Baltimore next year and ended up with double digit sacks.

Maybe someday they'll have their chance.

Ekuban got free from the dont rush the passer mentality and he started averaging a whole 6 sacks a year instead of 3. Still doesnt sound like much to me but then again I guess you could argue he doubled his production!

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Oh, I certainly agree. I wasn't advocating for their role to be to not rush the passer. I was simply saying that it seems possible that in fact their job was to not rush the passer, under Zimmer. This year will be a much better test with a new DC and the DEs being another year older.

I would agree with that. With Canty/Spears entering their third year they should show some improvement.

And a new DC can't hurt.

 

[hank2k]

Can we end this ridiculous thread.

We are not going to a 3-3-1-4

No one else is.

No one in the organization said we were.

It will never be mentioned by anyone in the organization.

Ever.

When it is please feel free to feed me humble pie.

Dont hold your breath.

 

[Bleu Star]

Roy is not gonna be a linebacker, People. Nor should he be. His coverage abilities are no worse then any other STRONG SAFETY in the NFL.


Let's worry about our pass rush before we worry about anything else.

Get a freaking pass rush (ala SD Chargers) and the rest of the defense will fall right into place.

 

[theebs]

wow...I guess norm hitzges can start some crazy rumours.

I heard him say this today after talking to jerry and I laughed. You would have to be nuts to play this defense.

that is an odd nickel set. Would make absolutely no sense.

We would give up 200 yards rushing a game.

Norm has been dissapointing me lately, he is off alot more than usual.