The biggest surprise about the Frederick pick

[jterrell]

The OGs aren't even in the top 5 things that were wrong with this team last season.

Yup.

OG play was below average but at least we kept NFL bodies there.

At OC we desperately used Ryan Cook.
At Safety we cobbled together a season once the expected starters at SS never made week 1. --Pool then Church
WR became a major issue because Miles was again non-existent due to injury for large stretches. His 2nd half wasn't even a top 50 offering.
OT was rated worst in football with Free and Smith both being fairly terrible.

Just using PFF OG was the best of our 3 areas on the OL. OT rated worst in football. OC was in bottom few spots. OG was actually middle of the road.

Obviously LB play also fell off the face of the earth once we were plugging in Brady Poppinga and other guys due to injury and asking Ware to play on 1 arm.

 

[ThreeandOut]

I could care less if they’re still playing in the NFL.

We’re not drafting for the rest of the NFL.

They should be playing for the Cowboys!

If they can’t play for the Cowboys then we shouldn’t be wasting picks on them.

The point was that these TE's were better players than the OL's, both with the Cowboys and with their other teams.

 

[IrishAnto]

The point was that these TE's were better players than the OL's, both with the Cowboys and with their other teams.

That may be the case but ultimately they weren’t worth a 2nd round pick to the Cowboys.

 

[Idgit]

And that’s the problem.

They seem unable to find OL talent outside of the top two rounds.

The reason for that is anybody’s guess, but the facts over the last 15+ years speak for themselves...

It's a real problem. And it gets magnified because you need to take two years developing these guys to see what you've got, so when you miss, you find out for sure that you've missed in year three. I understand the impulse to spend premium draft picks on those players, I really do, but that's fundamentally inefficient. You can do that at LT. I don't love doing it at C, but I can see it if Callahan really values that spot and you think it held you hostage. OG? If you think you've got an elite player there, go ahead. Otherwise, figure out what you're doing wrong in drafting or development, and fix it.

Yup.

OG play was below average but at least we kept NFL bodies there.

At OC we desperately used Ryan Cook.
At Safety we cobbled together a season once the expected starters at SS never made week 1. --Pool then Church
WR became a major issue because Miles was again non-existent due to injury for large stretches. His 2nd half wasn't even a top 50 offering.
OT was rated worst in football with Free and Smith both being fairly terrible.

Just using PFF OG was the best of our 3 areas on the OL. OT rated worst in football. OC was in bottom few spots. OG was actually middle of the road.

Obviously LB play also fell off the face of the earth once we were plugging in Brady Poppinga and other guys due to injury and asking Ware to play on 1 arm.

Any idea why what look to be fairly obvious realities are such a tough sell around here? People can still be mad at the OL play and at Jerry Jones and Jason Garrett for basically the same reasons. I think it's all probably just the residue from people wanting Grubbs or Nicks so badly last off season, but I have to admit that it surprises me that the obvious examples on the field last season don't shift the criticism even an iota.

It's an interesting example of how entrenched ideas can get. Not only does the play on the field indicate otherwise, and you still get to be intensely critical of the team and all you have to do is shift your frustration over to another player in the same position group, and still it's not enough to get most people to budge.

 

[ThreeandOut]

That may be the case but ultimately they weren’t worth a 2nd round pick to the Cowboys.

I don't disagree but you can say the same thing about all of the Cowboys 2nd round picks from 2003-9.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

That may be the case but ultimately they weren’t worth a 2nd round pick to the Cowboys.

I don't see how anyone could say Bennett wasn't worth the 59th overall pick. Yes Finley went a tad latter to the Packers in the third, but he was a contributor for 4 years.

He just didn't turn out to be a steal

 

[jterrell]

Any idea why what look to be fairly obvious realities are such a tough sell around here? People can still be mad at the OL play and at Jerry Jones and Jason Garrett for basically the same reasons. I think it's all probably just the residue from people wanting Grubbs or Nicks so badly last off season, but I have to admit that it surprises me that the obvious examples on the field last season don't shift the criticism even an iota.

It's an interesting example of how entrenched ideas can get. Not only does the play on the field indicate otherwise, and you still get to be intensely critical of the team and all you have to do is shift your frustration over to another player in the same position group, and still it's not enough to get most people to budge.

I think it is both 'groupthink' and a slowness to face dawning realities.

The OGs were hardly sexy or exciting. People wanted Nicks, Grubbs or DeCastro. Ending up with Livings and Bern is tantamount to not trying for the casual fan. A few media members with soapboxes by this argument and it sells like hot cakes.

So of course they grade those players more FAR harshly than necessary. While they ignore that our top 10 drafted LT and 8m per year RT were actually scored worse by any reasonable metric.

With Smith it is easy to say he has that potential so let's ignore his vomitous 2012. I am doing the same thing. But Nate Livings who merely manages to start every game, every year must now be replaced at all costs.

I see the same thing in other areas like gov't. Towns and even entire states act as if they are broke when in fact the economy recovered well over a year ago and they often now have huge surpluses. Yet they recognize it so late that we suffer through poor decision-making in areas like Education in the meantime.

People spend far too much time on what was and not enough on what is.

 

[jterrell]

I don't see how anyone could say Bennett wasn't worth the 59th overall pick. Yes Finley went a tad latter to the Packers in the third, but he was a contributor for 4 years.

He just didn't turn out to be a steal

MartyB was absolutely worth pick 61. He had true NFL talent and is even now accepted as a top 2 or 3 blocking TE

He did not develop enough as a pass catcher and route runner so didn't max out but he did live up to that very late r2 pick.

The 5 players drafted before him were:
Brian Brohm
Chad Henne
Dexter Jackson
Mike Pollak
Patrick Lee

5 after:
Terrell Thomas
Terence Wheatley
Kevin Smith
John Greco
Kendall Langford.

Fans think every draftee should be a 10 year starter which is both ridiculous and impossible.

Would you like to do more than merely come out OK or average? Sure. Can you expect to do so regularly? Absolutely not. No one does.

 

[IrishAnto]

MartyB was absolutely worth pick 61. He had true NFL talent and is even now accepted as a top 2 or 3 blocking TE

He did not develop enough as a pass catcher and route runner so didn't max out but he did live up to that very late r2 pick.

The 5 players drafted before him were:
Brian Brohm
Chad Henne
Dexter Jackson
Mike Pollak
Patrick Lee

5 after:
Terrell Thomas
Terence Wheatley
Kevin Smith
John Greco
Kendall Langford.

Fans think every draftee should be a 10 year starter which is both ridiculous and impossible.

Would you like to do more than merely come out OK or average? Sure. Can you expect to do so regularly? Absolutely not. No one does.

MartyB was a good blocking TE which if you draft well can be had with a pick several rounds later in the draft.

Listing the 5 players taken before and after MartyB doesn’t tell you who the Cowboys would have drafted had they not chosen Mr. Bennett and how well they would have contributed.

In addition because we were trying to develop him into a quality pass catching TE meant we didn’t look at other TE’s in subsequent drafts (until this years) who might actually have allowed us to successfully implement the 12 package.

So I have to disagree he was worth a 2nd round pick.

 

[IrishAnto]

I don't disagree but you can say the same thing about all of the Cowboys 2nd round picks from 2003-9.

Which partially explains why the Cowboys are in the position they’re currently in.

 

[Eskimo]

MartyB was a good blocking TE which if you draft well can be had with a pick several rounds later in the draft.

Listing the 5 players taken before and after MartyB doesn’t tell you who the Cowboys would have drafted had they not chosen Mr. Bennett and how well they would have contributed.

In addition because we were trying to develop him into a quality pass catching TE meant we didn’t look at other TE’s in subsequent drafts (until this years) who might actually have allowed us to successfully implement the 12 package.

So I have to disagree he was worth a 2nd round pick.

You have to remember that the average production of a 2nd round pick isn't that great. MartyB is still a quality starting TE in this league and probably around top 10 overall when you combine blocking and catching. He is not an elite receiver by any stretch of the imagination but he also will contribute some and even put up a 50 catch 6 TD season (roughly) last year. He looks like he is going to be a 10-year starter in the league and was a quasi-starter in Dallas for much of his career.

So why isn't he in Dallas? It is not because we didn't want him but because he wanted a chance to be a #1 TE and I don't blame him. Witten just happens to have been unusually durable and never misses a game so we never got to see what he could fully do and Witten was still going strong after 10 years of grinding in the league which is also unusual.

I would still lke to have him as he made us a really good outside running team by owning the corner for years. If we had even a halfway decent pulling OG during that time we would have been devastating with the way MartyB caved in the corner repeatedly.

You could argue we shouldn't have been taking a TE that high in the draft when we were going to mostly target Witten who was in his prime when the pick was made by MartyB was definitely a BPA at that spot in the draft and he was a pretty productive quasi-starter during his time here. So we got our money's worth out of our pick but were outbid for his services in FA and that happens from time to time with non-core players.

 

[Supercowboy1986]

I have to agree that he wasn't a bad pick in the 2nd for us and was a solid contributer. I just don't like him or any aggie really because i bleed burnt orange

 

[IrishAnto]

You could argue we shouldn't have been taking a TE that high in the draft when we were going to mostly target Witten who was in his prime when the pick was made by MartyB was definitely a BPA at that spot in the draft and he was a pretty productive quasi-starter during his time here. So we got our money's worth out of our pick but were outbid for his services in FA and that happens from time to time with non-core players.

And there you’ve hit the nail on the head.

In 2006 with Wittin in his prime we drafted Fasano and then in 2008 with Wittin still in his prime we drafted Bennett and ditched Fasano.

Neither lived up to expectations; however both have gone on to do much more with other teams than they ever had a chance to do here in Dallas.

Now Wittin may not be in his prime (but still managed to catch the most passes by a TE in a single season despite having to overcome a spleen injury) we draft Escobar despite having a promising TE in Hanna who only cost a 6th round pick.

Now in their excitement some are talking about a “13 package” when we’ve never managed the “12 package” to full effect.

Witten is and will be the main target until he can’t do it any more (and I fully expect he has at least two more good years in him) and hence everybody will have to make do with the scraps, so drafting any TE so high will largely be a waste.

Concentrating on developing a promising lower round pick (Hanna in this instance) is a much smarter tactic while Wittin is still “the daddy”.

 

[Doomsdayblitz]

They DID absolutely have to take Frederick where they did. I don't believe for a minute he would have been there at 47. I live in Big Ten Country-Ohio State fan-and I have researched Frederick probably more than any other OL over the last two years. He caught my attention when OSU played Wisconsin two seasons ago. Then, this past season, I recorded at least 8 of his games & studied him like no other player in the 2013 draft.
I was ecstatic when the Cowboys picked him. He is tough, strong, & plays pissed off. He can pull, and, unlike what the PFW draft guide stated, does have the quickness to get to the second level & take out LBs. He also graduated with a 4.0 with an engineering degree. Your Center has to be the smartest guy on the line to call all of the blocking assignments, & Frederick does as well as anyone I've seen.

 

[visionary]

Any idea why what look to be fairly obvious realities are such a tough sell around here?

It's an interesting example of how entrenched ideas can get.
.

completely agree

even after 17 years of mediocrity people still make excsues for jerry and after 6 years, for jason

the evidence is there but people refuse to see it

completely crazy but there you have it

 

[morasp]

They DID absolutely have to take Frederick where they did. I don't believe for a minute he would have been there at 47. I live in Big Ten Country-Ohio State fan-and I have researched Frederick probably more than any other OL over the last two years. He caught my attention when OSU played Wisconsin two seasons ago. Then, this past season, I recorded at least 8 of his games & studied him like no other player in the 2013 draft.
I was ecstatic when the Cowboys picked him. He is tough, strong, & plays pissed off. He can pull, and, unlike what the PFW draft guide stated, does have the quickness to get to the second level & take out LBs. He also graduated with a 4.0 with an engineering degree. Your Center has to be the smartest guy on the line to call all of the blocking assignments, & Frederick does as well as anyone I've seen.

I thought I read he got through engineering in three years, is that true? Add to what you said that he will be a starter and will give us the flexibility to put the best five out there since he could play guard or center and I'm very excited about the pick.

 

[Idgit]

completely agree

even after 17 years of mediocrity people still make excsues for jerry and after 6 years, for jason

the evidence is there but people refuse to see it

completely crazy but there you have it

If *only* there were a Jerry Jones thread someplace where we could discuss this fascinating '17 years of mediocrity' you've now discovered and decided to share with us, visionary. You should totally start a thread like that, and then everybody can go there and talk about how obvious everything is. Good job!

 

[visionary]

If *only* ......

i know

wouldnt it be great if our well-wishes for the cowboys (and their fans) came true

mine would be

"if only the cowboys were not run by an egotistical football idiot"

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

That's exactly what I said. It was actually in defense of the Cowboys. You can't accuse them of being secretive with their rankings because they lack confidence in them. No NFL team makes that stuff public pre or post draft. The most you get is a nugget or two from a comment the front office may make after the draft. Like Ciskowski saying Frederick, Escobar and Williams were all in our top 30.

Dallas has more than one Draft Board.


That being said, hype aside, the 2013 picks are good value.

 

[Idgit]

i know

wouldnt it be great if our well-wishes for the cowboys (and their fans) came true

mine would be

"if only the cowboys were not run by an egotistical football idiot"

Nice one! High five.

I'm saving all of these for a thread where they're going to be relevant, ok? Then we can link to them later and it will spur interesting conversations about, as you said below, this '17 years of futility' thing you've dreamed up, and also now this 'Cowboys are run by an egotistical football idiot' tidbit. Both of these morsels should be amazing fodder for a football debate in a thread that's not about how the Cowboys rate OLs in the draft.

I don't know about everybody else, visionary, but I can't wait to start unpacking some of these gems you're dropping this morning. Good stuff!