The Brandon Carr situation

[JoeyBoy718]

I've seen it talked about here and there but I wanted to get all the knowledge and info on the BC situation in one place. I'm not a cap expert so I don't really know how this works. I even tried Fanspeak's manage the cap thing and was basically just throwing random numbers at free agents.

So I know we gave Carr a huge contract a few years ago. I know he's still under contract. But I know we can cut him and still somehow save some money. I know we can also resign him for much less after we cut him (sort of like the Melton situation) and possibly still end up saving money.

Can anybody explain this more clearly? What would happen if we didn't cut him and just paid him what he's owed (would that be stupid)? Would we cut him and resign him or just ask him to take a pay cut like Free did? How much could we end up saving if we cut him? How much would we save if we cut and then resigned him versus just keeping him? versus having him take a pay cut?

 

[Pessimist_cowboy]

I've seen it talked about here and there but I wanted to get all the knowledge and info on the BC situation in one place. I'm not a cap expert so I don't really know how this works. I even tried Fanspeak's manage the cap thing and was basically just throwing random numbers at free agents.

So I know we gave Carr a huge contract a few years ago. I know he's still under contract. But I know we can cut him and still somehow save some money. I know we can also resign him for much less after we cut him (sort of like the Melton situation) and possibly still end up saving money.

Can anybody explain this more clearly? What would happen if we didn't cut him and just paid him what he's owed (would that be stupid)? Would we cut him and resign him or just ask him to take a pay cut like Free did? How much could we end up saving if we cut him? How much would we save if we cut and then resigned him versus just keeping him? versus having him take a pay cut?

It's a tough one cause he shut down megaton and horsy Nelson in the playoffs. I'd say just keep him. We won't see any of his money if we cut him until after June 1st anyway . Best case scenario is we restructure him. But 9 million isn't bad if he plays the way he did at the end of the season.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It's a tough one cause he shut down megaton and horsy Nelson in the playoffs. I'd say just keep him. We won't see any of his money if we cut him until after June 1st anyway . Best case scenario is we restructure him. But 9 million isn't bad if he plays the way he did at the end of the season.

I'll state right now (and I don't think it's any kind of stretch...) that Carr will not get his $9 mil next season. Restructure or get released.

 

[casmith07]

I'll state right now (and I don't think it's any kind of stretch...) that Carr will not get his $9 mil next season. Restructure or get released.

He'll be here. It's a roster and talent move at this point, in my opinion. You ready to trot out Morris Claiborne for 16 weeks on the other side of Scandrick? Patmon isn't ready. Sterling Moore your starter? A high draft pick?

For these reasons I think Carr will return. People won't like it, but he's a better option than the alternative.

They also will not restructure him. He would sign a new deal for less, if anything.

 

[Texas_Pete]

I'm nervous about him having to defend OBJ or Victor Cruz for 40+ snaps per game.

 

[casmith07]

I'm nervous about him having to defend OBJ or Victor Cruz for 40+ snaps per game.

The NFL is a bigger picture than two wide receivers on a 4-12 team this past season.

 

[Nightman]

I've seen it talked about here and there but I wanted to get all the knowledge and info on the BC situation in one place. I'm not a cap expert so I don't really know how this works. I even tried Fanspeak's manage the cap thing and was basically just throwing random numbers at free agents.

So I know we gave Carr a huge contract a few years ago. I know he's still under contract. But I know we can cut him and still somehow save some money. I know we can also resign him for much less after we cut him (sort of like the Melton situation) and possibly still end up saving money.

Can anybody explain this more clearly? What would happen if we didn't cut him and just paid him what he's owed (would that be stupid)? Would we cut him and resign him or just ask him to take a pay cut like Free did? How much could we end up saving if we cut him? How much would we save if we cut and then resigned him versus just keeping him? versus having him take a pay cut?

Right now he is due 8m and has a cap hit of 12.7m for 2015
If we cut him outright his cap hit would be 12.1m in 2015
If they June 1st cut him, his cap hit for 2015 would be 4.7m saving 8m, but he would have a 7.4m cap hit in 2016
If they get a 4m pay cut his cap hit would be 8.7m in 2015 and he would still have 7.4m in dead money for 2016

They should not cut him and resign him, that would kill the cap
The best move is to threaten to cut him and demand a pay cut
If he won't take a pay cut, they should June 1st cut him

 

[Idgit]

Carr's been inconsistent, and he always struggles trailing receivers on crossing routes, but by and large his reputation here is a function of his paycheck and not his actual production on the field. He'll probably renegotiate and continue on in Dallas.

And Marinelli's actually pretty high on his secondary. If they don't lose Carr, they may add a DB if there's a good value there, but move of the work will continue to be with upgrading the multiple DL spots that need an upgrade. Assuming, of course, the LB situation does not destabilize in FA.

 

[Texas_Pete]

The NFL is a bigger picture than two wide receivers on a 4-12 team this past season.

Agreed, but I foresee teams going after him early and often. He played OK down the stretch but was putrid overall. We need an upgrade.

 

[casmith07]

Agreed, but I see teams going after him early and often. He played OK down the stretch but was putrid overall. We need an upgrade.

We don't need any upgrades in the secondary this year unless the available player is a clear-cut, marked improvement.

What we need to do is be smart and upgrade the defensive front.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Right now he is due 8m and has a cap hit of 12.7m for 2015
If we cut him outright his cap hit would be 12.1m in 2015
If they June 1st cut him, his cap hit for 2015 would be 4.7m saving 8m, but he would have a 7.4m cap hit in 2016
If they get a 4m pay cut his cap hit would be 8.7m in 2015 and he would still have 7.4m in dead money for 2016

They should not cut him and resign him, that would kill the cap
The best move is to threaten to cut him and demand a pay cut
If he won't take a pay cut, they should June 1st cut him

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. So essentially, our best options are to either have him take a 4 mil pay cut and only add 8.7 mil to the cap this year and 7.4 next year. If we cut him, we still owe 4.7 mil this year and 7.4 next year. So what if we cut him (June 1st) and resigned him to 4 mil or less? How would that be different from having him take a 4 mil pay cut?

 

[Nightman]

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. So essentially, our best options are to either have him take a 4 mil pay cut and only add 8.7 mil to the cap this year and 7.4 next year. If we cut him, we still owe 4.7 mil this year and 7.4 next year. So what if we cut him (June 1st) and resigned him to 4 mil or less? How would that be different from having him take a 4 mil pay cut?

You can't June 1st cut him and then resign him, almost 100% on that
A straight cut would accelerate all the dead money to 2015, so it would be 12.1m(4.7m in 2015, 4.7m in 2016 and 2.7m in 2017)
If you resigned him later it would be that 12.1m plus any new salary, not good

The best move is to negotiate a pay cut because he isn't worth another 8m in salary this year and 9m next year.

 

[xwalker]

I've seen it talked about here and there but I wanted to get all the knowledge and info on the BC situation in one place. I'm not a cap expert so I don't really know how this works. I even tried Fanspeak's manage the cap thing and was basically just throwing random numbers at free agents.

So I know we gave Carr a huge contract a few years ago. I know he's still under contract. But I know we can cut him and still somehow save some money. I know we can also resign him for much less after we cut him (sort of like the Melton situation) and possibly still end up saving money.

Can anybody explain this more clearly? What would happen if we didn't cut him and just paid him what he's owed (would that be stupid)? Would we cut him and resign him or just ask him to take a pay cut like Free did? How much could we end up saving if we cut him? How much would we save if we cut and then resigned him versus just keeping him? versus having him take a pay cut?

People like to over complicate the cap. In a year like this one for the Cowboys, they have a lot of flexibility under the cap because they can restructure players like Romo and Tyron to achieve a great amount of cap space.

People get worked up about dead-money, but that is just the name for money that hits that cap after a player is cut. This same exact amount of money would also hit the cap if the player remained on the team, but it would vary as to exactly which year it hit the cap.

The bottom line is the the prorated money, which is called dead money if the player is cut is money that was already spent. It has to hit the cap at some point with or without the play on the roster.

What this all means is that the prorated money = dead money is not important in the decision process of cutting or retaining a player like Carr when the team is not tight against the cap and has the ability to push massive amounts of cap hits (Romo, Tyron, etc.) into future years if needed.

With the prorated not being significant to the issue of keeping or cutting Carr, that brings it back to his base salary which is scheduled to be 8M for 2015.

It's as simple as if he is or isn't worth 8M for 2015.

I would say that he is not worth 8M. They could likely get a free agent with similar talent for much less. A. Cromartie and B. Flowers both played on 1-year contracts for about 3.5M in 2014. Most people would rate them higher than Carr. There is some benefit to keeping Carr vs a similar talent because he knows the system, so if he agrees to a pay cut, then there are some advantages there.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

People like to over complicate the cap. In a year like this one for the Cowboys, they have a lot of flexibility under the cap because they can restructure players like Romo and Tyron to achieve a great amount of cap space.

People get worked up about dead-money, but that is just the name for money that hits that cap after a player is cut. This same exact amount of money would also hit the cap if the player remained on the team, but it would vary as to exactly which year it hit the cap.

The bottom line is the the prorated money, which is called dead money if the player is cut is money that was already spent. It has to hit the cap at some point with or without the play on the roster.

What this all means is that the prorated money = dead money is not important in the decision process of cutting or retaining a player like Carr when the team is not tight against the cap and has the ability to push massive amounts of cap hits (Romo, Tyron, etc.) into future years if needed.

With the prorated not being significant to the issue of keeping or cutting Carr, that brings it back to his base salary which is scheduled to be 8M for 2015.

It's as simple as if he is or isn't worth 8M for 2015.

I would say that he is not worth 8M. They could likely get a free agent with similar talent for much less. A. Cromartie and B. Flowers both played on 1-year contracts for about 3.5M in 2014. Most people would rate them higher than Carr. There is some benefit to keeping Carr vs a similar talent because he knows the system, so if he agrees to a pay cut, then there are some advantages there.

So how would you feel about two vets on 3.5-4 mil one year contracts versus keeping just Carr? Or perhaps a pay cut from Carr to 4 mil and then one more vet on a one year 3.5-4 mil contract?

 

[Craig]

Secondary would be my last priority, but if i were to do something to it i consider an upgrade at FS more important than CB2

 

[xwalker]

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. So essentially, our best options are to either have him take a 4 mil pay cut and only add 8.7 mil to the cap this year and 7.4 next year. If we cut him, we still owe 4.7 mil this year and 7.4 next year. So what if we cut him (June 1st) and resigned him to 4 mil or less? How would that be different from having him take a 4 mil pay cut?

The cap hit would be the same in his situation if they made him a June 1st cut and then signed him to a 1-year, 4M contract OR they they just redo his existing contract and give him a 4M pay cut.

The big difference is that from March to June 1st they get the 4M extra space if they redo his existing contract in March; whereas, with the June 1st cut, they have to carry the extra 4M on the cap from March to June 1st.

The other issue is that if they redo his contract with at 4M pay cut, they can also restructure it to push some of the 4M into future years. If they re-sign him after a June 1st cut to a 1-year contract, then none of that can be pushed forward.

It's not a huge issue to wait until June 1st to get the extra cap savings because only 51 players count against the cap in the off-season and they don't sign the draft picks until after June 1st. Once the season begins then all 53, plus the practice squad and players on PUP/IR count against the cap.

 

[AbeBeta]

I'll state right now (and I don't think it's any kind of stretch...) that Carr will not get his $9 mil next season. Restructure or get released.

He's not getting 9 mill as a UFA, so he's likely open to a cut. He HSS underwhelmed but it is hard to evaluate dbs when the pass rush is so limited

 

[casmith07]

They could likely get a free agent with similar talent for much less. A. Cromartie and B. Flowers both played on 1-year contracts for about 3.5M in 2014. Most people would rate them higher than Carr. There is some benefit to keeping Carr vs a similar talent because he knows the system, so if he agrees to a pay cut, then there are some advantages there.

You really have to look at things in a vacuum for the first part to be true.

 

[xwalker]

So how would you feel about two vets on 3.5-4 mil one year contracts versus keeping just Carr? Or perhaps a pay cut from Carr to 4 mil and then one more vet on a one year 3.5-4 mil contract?

I assume you mean 2 veteran CBs?

That's depends on who they are. I see the Cowboys re-signing Moore and either keeping Carr with a pay cut or replacing Carr with 1 free agent and adding a CB in the draft.

I think the players in the 1st section of the list below are as good or better than Carr. I would just offer Carr and all of those players 3M per season and sign the 1st one that takes it.

26 Buster Skrine CLE
26 Davon House GB
27 Byron Maxwell SEA
27 Chris Culliver SF
28 Perrish Cox SF
29 Brandon Flowers SD
31 Antonio Cromartie ARI
32 Tramon Williams GB

28 Walter Thurmond NYG
27 Kareem Jackson HOU
34 Charles Tillman CHI

25 Sterling Moore DAL
25 Brandon Harris TEN
26 Josh Thomas NYJ
27 Robert McClain ATL
27 James Dockery CAR
27 Cassius Vaughn DET
27 Phillip Adams NYJ
28 Javier Arenas ATL
28 Sherrick McManis CHI
28 Josh Gordy IND
28 Tommie Campbell JAX
28 Patrick Robinson NO
28 Kyle Wilson NYJ
28 Shareece Wright SD
28 Chris Cook SF
28 Crezdon Butler TB
28 Brandon Ghee TEN
28 E.J. Biggers WAS
29 Danny Gorrer BAL
29 Antoine Cason CAR
29 Darius Butler IND
29 Christopher Owens KC
29 Chykie Brown NYG
29 Bradley Fletcher PHI
29 Brice McCain PIT
30 Josh Wilson ATL
30 Alan Ball JAX
30 Tarell Brown SF
30 Mike Jenkins TB
31 Jarrett Bush GB
31 Zackary Bowman NYG
33 Aaron Ross BAL
34 Carlos Rogers OAK
35 Ike Taylor PIT
35 Rashean Mathis DET
37 Terence Newman CIN

 

[ShiningStar]

SO many other factors are involved, and so many fans cant see past their own fandom. IF a true FS was present on the team, Carr becomes better. Get a few more guys to get after the QB and the secondary gets better. We need to scour every place we can because we are going to probably push the qb search back further and when we finally fix the defense, we dont have a qb to utilize it. And its not an identity thing, and its a not a leader thing. Its going to depend on the talents at the positions. I personally dont think thsi draft will really affect us and im hoping Dallas either packages and trades up for a QB, or package down and pick up solid but not great talent. Either way an interesting draft because last years draft wasnt that bad.