The Cost of Meaningless Close Wins

[JoeKing]

We're potentially talking about pick 3, which the Dolphins just traded away for several first round draft picks. (3 I believe). They will have the overall ammo to completely rebuild their team in a few years. That could have been us.

Only folks capable of upper-level thinking get this. So don't expect most grid-iron fans to get it.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I think it's wrong to run a psychotherapy assessment session on an internet message board.

A bit of colorful language doesn't mean there is some intense anger being channeled or festering. People say the dumbest things, and don;t know how dumb they look. Pointing that out isn't necessarily "anger".

My point was that you find it so easy to break down others people ..arguments...(their comments...not anger)...but can;t see the faults in your own.

Watching you breeze by Dak and chisel into Andy...is a good example.

thanks for the "civil" response.

btw, I was a big Dak critique a couple of years back, in 2018, when everyone was talking about giving him a contract. I argued that we should wait and see if he improves in some areas I wanted to see him improve and if he does and we end up paying more, then so be it, its better to make sure we have the right guy. if you go back to my posts from back then (2018), I faulted Dak for his footwork, which led to his accuracy issues and Saks (yes, saks). given he was a bit unsure of his accuracy he tended to hold the ball a little too long which led to saks. it also didn't help him throw with anticipation since he didn't trust himself. His foot work improved tremendously with Kitna's help (wish we retained him in a psudo coaching position, like "throwing coach"). subsequently when the footwork became secod nature to him his accuracy improved (this is not the same as completion percentage) and he started to throw with more anticipation and his game improved a lot. I wanted us to give him a contract last year, which didn't work out (because of his agent) and then it happened this year.

I have found fault with Andy, given how many support him and compare him to Dak and think has is as good and wanted him as a starter. I only showed and discuss Andy's faults this past year he played for the cowboys (and nothing about cinci). for anyone to think Andy was anything close to Dak is fooling themselves. I have nothing against or for him. He is a back up at this point and I was vehemently opposed to having Andy as the starter, unless the plan was to tank, which only meant to get rid of everyone (trade, cut, accumulate draft picks) and truly tank for high draft pick (1st overall?) and hope a "franchise" QB is available in draft and then truly rebuild... Andy didn't give us a snow flake's chance in he!l to succeed and all I care about is Cowboys success. otherwise, Andy is what he is. a back up at this point in his career or a transition QB to the next Franchise QB.

 

[fivetwos]

No, not at all. What I am saying is that his firing wasn't the result of that decision or 'falling on the sword'.

You think it's because of the Wentz/Hurts thing, which I believe was the official excuse?

As if that situation wasn't discussed at length beforehand?

Pedersens actions in the game nor his words on Monday were consistent with a guy who knew he may get canned.

Fans were calling for anyone's head....the FO could have scored major points with the fans by doing what most teams do when they fire a coach....do it that Monday....but they didnt until they could sort it out and spin it.

That sudden divide was exactly that, and a convenient excuse.

The whole thing reeks of pure BS.

One thing that can't be argued is the fan base was beside themselves for being so embarrassed.

That's what we were supposed to do in September according to some in this thread.

I can't at all say the FO should have tried to lose on purpose mid season forward.

Overall point being a few slots in the draft is not at all worth the fallout, and there's no way to do anything covertly in this day and age when that many people are involved.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

You are totally missing the point. No one said, "that unless you can win the SB you may as well just tank." That's a strawman argument. I have no problem with the team trying to win games but if there is a point in the season where they aren't real contenders despite making the playoffs, they shouldn't hurt themselves by trying. At least better yourself for the next season's draft. If they have a team that can contend in the playoffs then yes, try to win every game. You don't seem to understand I agree with that.

players should try as hard as possible to win. to them its a "meal" ticket as their performances are always measured...., we could have lost the games, given our QB situation, the bad defense. injuries. however, the teams we beat, were in similar or worse situations, some playing their 3rd string QB and dealing with their own injuries and coaching turmoil. it became a matter of who is worse and who is going to give the game away.....

 

[lk8701]

We're potentially talking about pick 3, which the Dolphins just traded away for several first round draft picks. (3 I believe). They will have the overall ammo to completely rebuild their team in a few years. That could have been us.

Exactly. We would have the No. 12 pick this year (likely would land us Surtain or Horn), a first- and third-round pick in 2022 and a first-round pick in 2023. The scouting department knew there would be 4-5 1st round pick QBs this year during the course of the season. They organization should have been proactive once they knew Dak was out for the season. Alternatively if the scouting department was high on Fields/Lance then they could have traded Dak to the Niners or another team for a similar haul.

 

[lk8701]

Anybody who agrees with you. You can’t possibly understand what integrity means. You don’t get something for nothing. Entitlement LMAO

The Jags owner Shahid Khan blatantly tanked for Trevor Lawrence. Now his franchise is setup with Lawrence, Meyer, tons of other picks, + tons of cap space. I wouldn't be surprised if they won the Super Bowl within the next 4-5 seasons. Trust the process.

 

[Stash]

You think it's because of the Wentz/Hurts thing, which I believe was the official excuse?

As if that situation wasn't discussed at length beforehand?

Pedersens actions in the game nor his words on Monday were consistent with a guy who knew he may get canned.

Fans were calling for anyone's head....the FO could have scored major points with the fans by doing what most teams do when they fire a coach....do it that Monday....but they didnt until they could sort it out and spin it.

That sudden divide was exactly that, and a convenient excuse.

The whole thing reeks of pure BS.

One thing that can't be argued is the fan base was beside themselves for being so embarrassed.

That's what we were supposed to do in September according to some in this thread.

I don't agree at all with the original nonsensical premise given.

I can't at all say the FO should have tried to lose on purpose mid season forward.

Not mid season. But when they had 7 losses or more and knew their quarterback wasn’t coming back. The wins they got were trash. And false hope to those who didn’t know any better. Nothing more.

Overall point being a few slots in the draft is not at all worth the fallout, and there's no way to do anything covertly in this day and age when that many people are involved.

Sorry but that’s not accurate. I showed what a difference pick 3 and pick 10 could have made. The difference of 3 late season meaningless wins.

There are smart ways to do it that aren’t underhanded and sneaky or obvious. When teams know they’re out of it, they play their young guys and give them experience and development. We’re not smart enough and always kid ourselves into thinking we still somehow have a shot.

 

[fivetwos]

I don't agree at all with the original nonsensical premise given.



Not mid season. But when they had 7 losses or more and knew their quarterback wasn’t coming back. The wins they got were trash. And false hope to those who didn’t know any better. Nothing more.



Sorry but that’s not accurate. I showed what a difference pick 3 and pick 10 could have made. The difference of 3 late season meaningless wins.

There are smart ways to do it that aren’t underhanded and sneaky or obvious. When teams know they’re out of it, they play their young guys and give them experience and development. We’re not smart enough and always kid ourselves into thinking we still somehow have a shot.

MY premise or that of the team?

The difference between pick 3 and 10 is massive for certain

Losing to those teams at that point would have taken a real effort. Cin, SF and Phil were outright pathetic. I think they would have beaten at least one with DiNucci at QB...as bad as he looked at Phi.

The difference in all three was the backup QB situation.

Those teams had backups way worse than Dalton at the time.

Then again, its tough to fault the FO for signing a quality backup to a team that many of us, you and I included, thought would contend.

Overall point is that I fully agree that the haul from pick 3 would have certainly helped our cause much more than those 3 wins have. Much, much more.

I DO think it has to happen naturally. If players ever caught wind that a coach wasn't trying...forget it. Locker room lost.

It was clear how the Eagles players felt during and after that game by seeing the reactions.

I think the organization was fully in on it (to pick 6th instead of 9th) and it backfired. They couldn't bring back the coach after that.

That's what I meant by fall on the sword.

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

only folks capable of upper-level thinking get this. So don't expect most grid-iron fans to get it.

Well how very condescending of you.

The Dunning–Kruger effect...in full effect here!

We were actually vieing for a playoff spot very late in the season....maybe to D-K types....it would have been "meaningless"....but I beg to differ.

But yeah...you could be right...we should have intentionally lost...that's good ethics right there...teaching the kids right....so that we could get a few spots higher in the draft, because we've done SO WELL with our high draft picks over the years.

mkay...got it.

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

MY premise or that of the team?

The difference between pick 3 and 10 is massive for certain

Losing to those teams at that point would have taken a real effort. Cin, SF and Phil were outright pathetic. I think they would have beaten at least one with DiNucci at QB...as bad as he looked at Phi.

The difference in all three was the backup QB situation.

Those teams had backups way worse than Dalton at the time.

Then again, its tough to fault the FO for signing a quality backup to a team that many of us, you and I included, thought would contend.

Overall point is that I fully agree that the haul from pick 3 would have certainly helped our cause much more than those 3 wins have. Much, much more.

I DO think it has to happen naturally. If players ever caught wind that a coach wasn't trying...forget it. Locker room lost.

It was clear how the Eagles players felt during and after that game by seeing the reactions.

I think the organization was fully in on it (to pick 6th instead of 9th) and it backfired. They couldn't bring back the coach after that.

That's what I meant by fall on the sword.

So you like how great we draft in the upper spots? Hmm...interesting.

Teaching kids to do your best to win...isn't a consideration for you, I see. Teach them to quit...for a phantom draft spot. Good call.

 

[fivetwos]

So you like how great we draft in the upper spots? Hmm...interesting.

Teaching kids to do your best to win...isn't a consideration for you, I see. Teach them to quit...for a phantom draft spot. Good call.

Sure you got the right person?

Maybe take another look

 

[Stash]

MY premise or that of the team?

The difference between pick 3 and 10 is massive for certain

Losing to those teams at that point would have taken a real effort. Cin, SF and Phil were outright pathetic. I think they would have beaten at least one with DiNucci at QB...as bad as he looked at Phi.

The difference in all three was the backup QB situation.[/quote]

No way. Dinucci didn’t even look capable. But the point is that this team played the vet they knew wouldn’t be back and were dumb enough to play to win.

Those teams had backups way worse than Dalton at the time.

Then again, its tough to fault the FO for signing a quality backup to a team that many of us, you and I included, thought would contend.

Tgat would have been fine if they had a legitimate shot. But they clearly didn’t and defaulted to the veteran on a one year deal anyway. Dumb decision.

Overall point is that I fully agree that the haul from pick 3 would have certainly helped our cause much more than those 3 wins have. Much, much more.

Glad we can agree on that.

I DO think it has to happen naturally. If players ever caught wind that a coach wasn't trying...forget it. Locker room lost.

It was clear how the Eagles players felt during and after that game by seeing the reactions.

I think the organization was fully in on it (to pick 6th instead of 9th) and it backfired. They couldn't bring back the coach after that.

That's what I meant by fall on the sword.

I agree at how poorly the Eagles handled it. That was pathetic. What I’m saying is that there are better ways to do it. Among them playing young players. Dallas had that option and failed to use it, as they do often do.

 

[fivetwos]

The difference in all three was the backup QB situation.

First, I like and respect you, and this is no type of argument. Wanted to be clear there.

I fully get what you're saying, but can't agree (even though I'm apparently getting blasted by others as if I do).

The team was in the almost impossible spot of competing for both a top draft pick and a home playoff game. How often is that line that fine lol?

We all knew they weren't going anywhere if they won the division, but I can't really fault the team for not pulling the plug on it.

It would have been way obvious (DiNucci over Dalton) IMO, and it wouldn't have sat well with the players.

The chaos that would have ensued within the locker room would have been disastrous, and no way would they respond to MM moving ahead, if they did anyway.

Also I don't see how you tell a healthy Dalton, on a one year incentive laden contract, that he isnt playing over a rookie. Can say too bad all we like, but then the players union is upset, word gets around that that's how Dallas is with players, agents get pissed, etc.

Big fallout for an unknown.

Now...if we dont HAVE a Dalton to begin with.....that changes all of it, and we would have likely had the 5th-6th pick, because I can't see it as impossible that they win one of those three with him.

They fully expected to contend and Dalton was a great insurance policy for a few games if needed.

Every contender should have a decent backup.

This time it happened to backfire.

I truly see the value in those high picks vs moral victories....but I think one needs to get there naturally to avoid collateral damage.

As in....maybe Dallas would have been more fortunate if the backup was lost for the season also.

 

[aikemirv]

The Cowboys should have lost their games against Atlanta (week 2), the Giants (week 5), and the Vikings (week 11). The Cowboys could of had the 3rd overall pick. They could have received the same haul the Dolphins did for the 3rd pick. In this scenario Surtain or Horn would likely be available at 12. Plus they would have 2 extra 1st round picks + an extra 3rd round pick in the future. They could have also selected a QB at 3 and trade Dak. A ridiculous botched onside kick + signing Andy Dalton cost this franchise for years to come.

And all this time I thought you played football to get to the postseason - not for a position in the draft - silly me.

From a fan perspective, at the middle of the season, the only thing you could feel excited about was possible draft position next year and I was kind of with you!

 

[Stash]

First, I like and respect you, and this is no type of argument. Wanted to be clear there.

Absolutely! And very much likewise.

I fully get what you're saying, but can't agree (even though I'm apparently getting blasted by others as if I do).

Pay the kids no mind.

The team was in the almost impossible spot of competing for both a top draft pick and a home playoff game. How often is that line that fine lol?

We all knew they weren't going anywhere if they won the division, but I can't really fault the team for not pulling the plug on it.

I can and do. As you acknowledge, we and everyone else knew they were going nowhere and winning nothing of consequence. Anything else is a waste.

It would have been way obvious (DiNucci over Dalton) IMO, and it wouldn't have sat well with the players.

The chaos that would have ensued within the locker room would have been disastrous, and no way would they respond to MM moving ahead, if they did anyway.

Also I don't see how you tell a healthy Dalton, on a one year incentive laden contract, that he isnt playing over a rookie. Can say too bad all we like, but then the players union is upset, word gets around that that's how Dallas is with players, agents get pissed, etc.

Big fallout for an unknown.

I would have played Gilbert actually. He nearly won the Steelers game and looked good when given the chance. But I do see your point about Dalton and the incentives.

Now...if we dont HAVE a Dalton to begin with.....that changes all of it, and we would have likely had the 5th-6th pick, because I can't see it as impossible that they win one of those three with him.

They fully expected to contend and Dalton was a great insurance policy for a few games if needed.

Every contender should have a decent backup.

This time it happened to backfire.

I truly see the value in those high picks vs moral victories....but I think one needs to get there naturally to avoid collateral damage.

As in....maybe Dallas would have been more fortunate if the backup was lost for the season also.

The incentives for Dalton that you mentioned is a great point and changes the dynamic for me a bit. Not quite as easy to sit him as I had thought.

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

Sure you got the right person?

Maybe take another look

Oh I got the right person alright.

However..it's ...POSSible....I misread your comment.

 

[jnday]

Throwing a game is something I do not believe in period. I can accept a loss but as I said I look to remove players who are playing for a paycheck as Irvin said was the case before Jimmy got there, guys did not care about winning they just wanted a payday. I will say if I knew my team was out of it and I had some guys I wanted to having playing time to be able to see them in real game action then fine but I expect my player to play hard and with the intent of winning.

I wish that one of the players had the guts to give MM a list of the current paycheck players on this roster. I think fans would be shocked to see the list and I think there would be a lot of players looking for jobs is MM decided to replace them. The culture problem in Dallas creates these type of players.

 

[blueblood70]

Only folks capable of upper-level thinking get this. So don't expect most grid-iron fans to get it.

umm are you guys both high, the dolphins technically should have made playoffs last year had it NOT been for the steelers giving the browns free pass in by sitting all their starters..

trying to make an assumption MIA tanked for 3 is moronic they were 10-6 do you all even watch football..they got the 3rd pick from stupid trade..had zero to do with tanking. The year before they went 3-2 , 2 points form 4-1 in their last five and didnt sit their starters and picked 5 anyway..no tanking at all..

man you al need to stop claiming weed doesnt have effects on the brain..its a drug, not harmless flower..

horrible point, bad example just shows when someone tries to prove point with stupid narrative and uses a bad example means you ignore these opinions. just run

 

[Westcoasthabsfan]

The Cowboys should have lost their games against Atlanta (week 2), the Giants (week 5), and the Vikings (week 11). The Cowboys could of had the 3rd overall pick. They could have received the same haul the Dolphins did for the 3rd pick. In this scenario Surtain or Horn would likely be available at 12. Plus they would have 2 extra 1st round picks + an extra 3rd round pick in the future. They could have also selected a QB at 3 and trade Dak. A ridiculous botched onside kick + signing Andy Dalton cost this franchise for years to come.

Are you serious....the Boys play the game to lose....‍♂️