The fabricated concussion discussion

[theogt]

Amen.

 

[burmafrd]

I think it is not a coincidence that only in the last 30 years or so has the concussion thing started to really appear.

Players are so much bigger, stronger and faster. The Impacts are much more violent.

I think it is noticeable how few of the pre 1980 players seem to have this problem versus those post 1980.

the size of players had slowly gone up since the 50's but not that much. Linemen went from 230 to 250 or so. Joe Green at 275 was consideered a monster for a lot of his career. Bob Lilly was around 265 and ate OL for snacks. BUT they were the exception.

You look at average O line size for example in 1980 and then look at 1990 and you see about a 50 lb difference. That is a 20% increase in less than a decade. Other positions started to grow as well; and with more advanced training and more of it the players got stonger as well. And then quicker.

And like a cascade effect you also add ESPN and others showing up and gloryifying big hits and the like.

It all comes together; especially now with so little practice of proper tackling and blocking.

 

[hra8700]

I'm sorry the players union and owners are taking away from your entertainment by trying to protect real men with real lives and real families from devastating neurological and psychiatric complications.

You can say all you want "they knew the consequences," but when you grow up poor, with football as your only way out, when it's a job flipping burgers or millions of dollars and a whole lot of fame, It's very hard to fully grasp the implications, and even if you do, you will rationalize it away ("it won't be me").

What's that line from gladiator? "Are you not entertained?"

 

[Hoofbite]

The issue isn't that people are under the assumption that the sport isn't dangerous. It's about the league basically turning a blind eye for a long while which is why they enforce all these stupid rules now to try and make up for it so when the day in court comes they have something to point to as a reason why they shouldn't be paying however much is up for discussion.

The boxing example doesn't really hold true IMO. Everyone knows that both are probably bad for your health. The difference is when a boxer is knocked out the fight stops and his day is over. When an NFL player is knocked out he goes to the bench for a few minutes and is allowed to re-enter the game by people who should be teling him he's done for the day.

And this isn't even a thing of past. I watched an Eagles LB (Stewart Bradley, I think) get his bell rung and he stumbled around a little bit before falling to the ground. After being helped off for a minute he was back on the field and it wasn't until after halftime that he was pulled out because of a concussion. This was either in 2011 or 2010, well after all the attention the safety angle started getting.

I'm pretty sure it came out that Alex Smith suffered a concussion at some point in the game against Dallas last year and yet he wasn't taken out. Supposedly the signs and symptoms didn't manifest until afterward, if you're willing to believe that.

I don't think people are under the impression that the game is without it's risks. The issue is the league didn't do anything to protect the players who were injured. These guys are competitors and they'll go back in if they are allowed to. Just as a boxer who stumbles to his feet at the count of 9 pleads and protests that he can continue when the fight is stopped by the ref. These guys aren't in the business of taking defeating with a smile. That's why there's a referee in the ring to tell these guys when they are done because they can't do it themselves. That's what the medical staff on the sideline of NFL games should have done long before the recent emphasis but I don't think anyone would accept that it was happening. The NFL had/has/will have a responsibility to make the call, no different than boxing. The difference is nobody was making the call in the NFL and if a boxing referee can determine when a guy has had enough I think it's an insult to suggest a trained medical expert cannot.

 

[muck4doo]

Mark Sanchez can give everyone lessons on how to lead with the face.

 

[Hawk]

I don't post here often......But That Was Most Excellant

 

[jobberone]

The issue isn't that people are under the assumption that the sport isn't dangerous. It's about the league basically turning a blind eye for a long while which is why they enforce all these stupid rules now to try and make up for it so when the day in court comes they have something to point to as a reason why they shouldn't be paying however much is up for discussion.

The boxing example doesn't really hold true IMO. Everyone knows that both are probably bad for your health. The difference is when a boxer is knocked out the fight stops and his day is over. When an NFL player is knocked out he goes to the bench for a few minutes and is allowed to re-enter the game by people who should be teling him he's done for the day.

And this isn't even a thing of past. I watched an Eagles LB (Stewart Bradley, I think) get his bell rung and he stumbled around a little bit before falling to the ground. After being helped off for a minute he was back on the field and it wasn't until after halftime that he was pulled out because of a concussion. This was either in 2011 or 2010, well after all the attention the safety angle started getting.

I'm pretty sure it came out that Alex Smith suffered a concussion at some point in the game against Dallas last year and yet he wasn't taken out. Supposedly the signs and symptoms didn't manifest until afterward, if you're willing to believe that.

I don't think people are under the impression that the game is without it's risks. The issue is the league didn't do anything to protect the players who were injured. These guys are competitors and they'll go back in if they are allowed to. Just as a boxer who stumbles to his feet at the count of 9 pleads and protests that he can continue when the fight is stopped by the ref. These guys aren't in the business of taking defeating with a smile. That's why there's a referee in the ring to tell these guys when they are done because they can't do it themselves. That's what the medical staff on the sideline of NFL games should have done long before the recent emphasis but I don't think anyone would accept that it was happening. The NFL had/has/will have a responsibility to make the call, no different than boxing. The difference is nobody was making the call in the NFL and if a boxing referee can determine when a guy has had enough I think it's an insult to suggest a trained medical expert cannot.

I brought the boxing example up because its the perfect example for people who sustain repeated head trauma. If you understood the problem you'd know that you don't have to be knocked out to sustain enough injury to cause CTE. The incidence of CTE, Parkinson's and other neurologic problems is very high in boxers.

 

[alsmith]

Lawyers have and are ruining the game of football, they will do it every time..

 

[Lesterbut]

Some comments:

1. I'm pretty sure players are a little bigger and stronger than they were back in the 'good old days'...
2. I'm pretty sure helmets provide much less protection than they APPEARED (at least historically appeared) to....see, that's called the 'illusion' of protection or safety...
3. I'm pretty sure we know a little more about concussions than we did back in the 'good old days'..

You see, when things change, and new information comes to light, and our understanding grows, and we come to appreciate the significance of the risks a little more, our behavior may need to change...
I get that this is going to give some fans the blues and 'good old days' syndrome, but, you know .... People loved their Corvairs and Pintos and throwing garbage out of their car windows and smoking, and driving while drinking...

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Some comments:

1. I'm pretty sure players are a little bigger and stronger than they were back in the 'good old days'...
2. I'm pretty sure helmets provide much less protection than they APPEARED (at least historically appeared) to....see, that's called the 'illusion' of protection or safety...
3. I'm pretty sure we know a little more about concussions than we did back in the 'good old days'..

You see, when things change, and new information comes to light, and our understanding grows, and we come to appreciate the significance of the risks a little more, our behavior may need to change...
I get that this is going to give some fans the blues and 'good old days' syndrome, but, you know .... People loved their Corvairs and Pintos and throwing garbage out of their car windows and smoking, and driving while drinking...

Rational says something until you realize that for most average Americans there is nothing funner or that creates better experiences in our menial nothing lives than full contact football has.


We've all played this sport.

 

[Kristen82]

I kind get a visceral thrill watching someone get bashed in the chinstrap by the crown of someone's helmet, then I remember I'm a medical student and I cringe, then I enjoy it some more, then I feel guilty and cringe some more, etc. etc.


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[WPBCowboysFan]

This.

Maybe NFL players should be forced to sign a liability waiver before they can be eligible for the draft.

Are you kidding?

It would prob be considered some kinda labor violation, or collusion, or would fall under an anti-trust issue, blah, blah, blah, in our protect us from ourselves society.

Besides the NFLPA would never go for it.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

I'm sorry the players union and owners are taking away from your entertainment by trying to protect real men with real lives and real families from devastating neurological and psychiatric complications.

You can say all you want "they knew the consequences," but when you grow up poor, with football as your only way out, when it's a job flipping burgers or millions of dollars and a whole lot of fame, It's very hard to fully grasp the implications, and even if you do, you will rationalize it away ("it won't be me").

What's that line from gladiator? "Are you not entertained?"

Your point is meaningless. Flip burgers or play ball? They did make the choice to play ball. Most of us enter into various things w/o knowing all the possible consequences ahead of time. Besides, for most it is the "it wont happen to me" mentality.

Its not the NFL's fault that guys get banged up.

Nor is it the owners.

Or the players.

Its just part of playing football.

And to try and hold the NFL somehow accountable is ludicrous by any rational, normal, common sense way of looking at things. PERIOD!

 

[Hoofbite]

I brought the boxing example up because its the perfect example for people who sustain repeated head trauma. If you understood the problem you'd know that you don't have to be knocked out to sustain enough injury to cause CTE. The incidence of CTE, Parkinson's and other neurologic problems is very high in boxers.

I actually didn't see your post. I was responding to the OP.

My point wasn't about a need to be knocked out. It was more so that there are safeguards in boxing that are in place, and more specifically that are utilized, that prevent a guy from taking a shot after he's already had his bell rung. This is because he only has a limited time to answer the count or the fight can be stopped outright without him even being knocked out. These are obviously safeguards that are a result of the rules of the game but they are still safeguards nonetheless.

Safeguards that have not been used in the NFL, or at best have been skirted and at worst flat out ignored, which is why they are responsible to some extent.

Both sports have their inherent risks. That's not even a debate in the matter. The issue IMO is about whether or not each entity has fulfilled their obligation to minimize damage. Boxers will likely always have long term effects because the entire sport is about hitting people in the head. Only way to stop it would be to end Boxing. That said, referees have the power to stop the fight whenever they want and they do in fact stop fights.

NFL players will also like have longterm effects but that's not to say that the NFL shouldn't be held responsible for allowing guys to go back into the game when they weren't fit to and when the NFL employees had the power to prevent the player from doing so.

Neither sport is likely to go away and it's participants will have to accept the risks that come with that. I don't necessarily think the real discussion should be about whether or not the risks are actually present. I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that they are. I think the issue is whether or not each entity has safeguards in place and more importantly that are actually being implemented in order to make the sport as safe as possible.

Boxing passes this test, IMO whereas the NFL even up through recent seasons has not.

The fact that there are risks involved doesn't do anything to absolve the NFL from their responsibility to reduce exposure to unnecessary risk and additional hits that would have been avoided by responsible team employees enforcing the rules that were in place.

I don't see the situation from the perspective that the owners can reduce all risk by implementing rules. That's absurd. The nature of game includes contact. There will be longterm effects for some of these guys. That said, they can enforce rules that don't place players at additional risks.

When a player willingly accepts the risks and takes the field knowing full well that he may have longterm effects and the effects are solely because of his decisions, I don't have a problem with it. You knew full well of the potential consequences and accepted that they may occur. When a guy who just took a huge hit can barely tell you where he's at and yet he is allowed to go back in after getting checked out by the medical staff, then it's a problem because he's clearly not in the right state of mind to make the decision in the first place.

 

[JPostSam]

hey, OP, i'm with you.

i yearn for an nfl where grown men can spear each other in the head as often as they wish.

i just love seeing guys crumple to the ground and lie motionless for nearly 20 minutes while medical crews put neck braces on them and check for paralysis. that just says "football," you know?

also, i enjoy seeing men's knees buckle with low blocks. that's cool.

besides, injuries make the game cooler AND faster.

for the life of me, i can't understand why the pansies who run the nfl banned yanking the facemask -- after all, it's a very effective method of tackling. have you seen when a d-lineman pulls a running back's facemask around to the back of his head? dude goes DOWN, man! that stuff just plain works.

come to think of it, it's a shame we don't get to see more of suh and haynesworth stepping on downed opponents with their cleats. hey, sissy o-lineman: if you can't take the pain of a man's game, don't step on the field!

i mean, am i right, or am i right?

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

i mean, am i right, or am i right?

Not even close.

If you were right then there should be some new rules against RB's wearing cleats. After all, guys cleats have gotten caught in the turf and knees have been torn up. And cuts should be illegal with a 15 yd penalty because injuries have occurred making cuts. And, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Im sure you're rather proud of your self perceived clever little post, but it has zero merit on any level.

 

[jobberone]

I actually didn't see your post. I was responding to the OP.

My point wasn't about a need to be knocked out. It was more so that there are safeguards in boxing that are in place, and more specifically that are utilized, that prevent a guy from taking a shot after he's already had his bell rung. This is because he only has a limited time to answer the count or the fight can be stopped outright without him even being knocked out. These are obviously safeguards that are a result of the rules of the game but they are still safeguards nonetheless.

Safeguards that have not been used in the NFL, or at best have been skirted and at worst flat out ignored, which is why they are responsible to some extent.

Both sports have their inherent risks. That's not even a debate in the matter. The issue IMO is about whether or not each entity has fulfilled their obligation to minimize damage. Boxers will likely always have long term effects because the entire sport is about hitting people in the head. Only way to stop it would be to end Boxing. That said, referees have the power to stop the fight whenever they want and they do in fact stop fights.

NFL players will also like have longterm effects but that's not to say that the NFL shouldn't be held responsible for allowing guys to go back into the game when they weren't fit to and when the NFL employees had the power to prevent the player from doing so.

Neither sport is likely to go away and it's participants will have to accept the risks that come with that. I don't necessarily think the real discussion should be about whether or not the risks are actually present. I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that they are. I think the issue is whether or not each entity has safeguards in place and more importantly that are actually being implemented in order to make the sport as safe as possible.

Boxing passes this test, IMO whereas the NFL even up through recent seasons has not.

The fact that there are risks involved doesn't do anything to absolve the NFL from their responsibility to reduce exposure to unnecessary risk and additional hits that would have been avoided by responsible team employees enforcing the rules that were in place.

I don't see the situation from the perspective that the owners can reduce all risk by implementing rules. That's absurd. The nature of game includes contact. There will be longterm effects for some of these guys. That said, they can enforce rules that don't place players at additional risks.

When a player willingly accepts the risks and takes the field knowing full well that he may have longterm effects and the effects are solely because of his decisions, I don't have a problem with it. You knew full well of the potential consequences and accepted that they may occur. When a guy who just took a huge hit can barely tell you where he's at and yet he is allowed to go back in after getting checked out by the medical staff, then it's a problem because he's clearly not in the right state of mind to make the decision in the first place.

Then we agree on the physical aspects of the problem. I do think the players union and the league are going to have to hammer out some agreement where the league has limited responsibility. My guess is they will set up a pool that both contribute to that will be used to help those in need later on.

And there is going to have to be some change in equipment although I have no idea what that will be. Since we don't know the threshold for hits that don't result in any structural damage to the brain we can currently see nor any symptoms or signs either then that may be by trials over time.

 

[Hoofbite]

Then we agree on the physical aspects of the problem. I do think the players union and the league are going to have to hammer out some agreement where the league has limited responsibility. My guess is they will set up a pool that both contribute to that will be used to help those in need later on.

And there is going to have to be some change in equipment although I have no idea what that will be. Since we don't know the threshold for hits that don't result in any structural damage to the brain we can currently see nor any symptoms or signs either then that may be by trials over time.

This is an interesting aspect as well. Marcellus Wiley was a player rep for safety (or something to that effect) during his career and he said that he's been to conventions that show off equipment advances and that he's seen products that look really promising. This was all on a Mike and Mike episode a couple years ago.

When asked why these products weren't being used or looked at by the NFL, the reply he got was that these small companies couldn't afford the licensing fees.

If this is true, it's pretty damning.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

When asked why these products weren't being used or looked at by the NFL, the reply he got was that these small companies couldn't afford the licensing fees.

If this is true, it's pretty damning.

Very true, but it may be hard to prove it was all about licensing fees. Im sure the league has some good excuses, and there may be other related things Marcellus isnt privy to.

 

[jobberone]

This is an interesting aspect as well. Marcellus Wiley was a player rep for safety (or something to that effect) during his career and he said that he's been to conventions that show off equipment advances and that he's seen products that look really promising. This was all on a Mike and Mike episode a couple years ago.

When asked why these products weren't being used or looked at by the NFL, the reply he got was that these small companies couldn't afford the licensing fees.

If this is true, it's pretty damning.

That is damning. I hope the league does the right moral and legal thing and starts to experiment with some that are appropriate.