CFZ The Greatness of Zack Martin

[TNCowboy]

not sure I understand do you mean from 2000 on?

Yes, around 2000 or so, LA ate himself into a shell of the dominant player he was in the 90s.

People forget it, but there was a lot of anger amongst fans toward LA at that time. I recall old Silverbear (does anyone know if he's still alive?) posted a thread at the old Cowboyszone or maybe it was at Silverstar, demanding Jerry Jones sue LA for breach of contract after Jones gave him a big extension and LA went in the tank. LA got so big towards the end it was a joke.

 

[75boyz]

I think prime Tyron had the best player on the team title for a bit. Watching his HOF kickstep and getting out on sweeps with second level blocks was a thing of beauty.

Since Tyron became less available due to injuries, I believe Zack stepped in as best player on the team titleist for a while.

But then fast forward to right now and there is recent evidence to suggest Micah may now be best player on the team.

Zack still may be the best OG in the NFL or "at worst" top 3 but Micah just has that Lawrence Taylor look.
And nobody else has come close to that type of dominance since...
Well...
LT himself.

 

[OmerV]

He lamented in public about missing out on Manziel. You know this. So has the process ultimately been failing for 27 years?

Yes, back at the time he did do that. That's not what he says now, and it's irrelevant anyway because they didn't take Manziel. Drafts are judged on what teams do, not what they considered and didn't do.

As I said, no doubt teams consider players all the time that they end up not taking and that end up a bust for other teams. That's naturally part of the draft process.

Admittedly Jerry probably shouldn't have voiced his thoughts after the draft 8 years ago, but ultimately all that matters is what they did. They made they right choice so it makes no sense to treat it as if they made the wrong choice.

 

[Jake]

Considering Jerry let others talk him out of drafting Manziel, and they didn't draft Manziel, I don't see how that is an ongoing black mark. No doubt teams every year have disagreements on players, but what matters is that the process worked where they passed on the player that ended up a bust and went with the better choice. The black mark is when they pass on the better player and take the one that turns out to be a bust

Fair enough, but let's not forget what Jerry said to Stephen after the pick was made:

"Son, I hope you're happy," Jerry said. "But let me tell you something: You don't get to own the Cowboys, you don't get to do special things in life, by making major decisions going right down the middle. And that" -- taking an offensive lineman over Johnny Football -- "was right down the middle."

He clearly was not happy about it at the time.

 

[starfan1]

Yes, around 2000 or so, LA ate himself into a shell of the dominant player he was in the 90s.

People forget it, but there was a lot of anger amongst fans toward LA at that time. I recall old Silverbear (does anyone know if he's still alive?) posted a thread at the old Cowboyszone or maybe it was at Silverstar, demanding Jerry Jones sue LA for breach of contract after Jones gave him a big extension and LA went in the tank. LA got so big towards the end it was a joke.

Im had forgotten that He was a beast though. I remember silverbear from the ranch. Did an awesome job come draft time.

 

[75boyz]

Fair enough, but let's not forget what Jerry said to Stephen after the pick was made:

"Son, I hope you're happy," Jerry said. "But let me tell you something: You don't get to own the Cowboys, you don't get to do special things in life, by making major decisions going right down the middle. And that" -- taking an offensive lineman over Johnny Football -- "was right down the middle."

He clearly was not happy about it at the time.

Another version of more luck in draft choices is as recent as last year.
Stephen publicly saying that Surtain would have definitely been the choice if available.
Micah was an un intended plan B.

 

[Ranched]

 

[RS12]

The comp for Zack coming out of ND was Logan Mankins who coincidentally is up for HOF this year. It will will be very interesting to see what happens to Mankins HOF chances. Besides being the superior player Zack has the far better resume with five all pros to Mankins one. Same amount of pro bowls with seven but that is a popularity contest. Both made the 2010s team.

 

[OmerV]

Fair enough, but let's not forget what Jerry said to Stephen after the pick was made:

"Son, I hope you're happy," Jerry said. "But let me tell you something: You don't get to own the Cowboys, you don't get to do special things in life, by making major decisions going right down the middle. And that" -- taking an offensive lineman over Johnny Football -- "was right down the middle."

He clearly was not happy about it at the time.

I haven't said otherwise. Jerry clearly had his head wrong on that. I'm just saying it isn't a black mark on the team because ultimately they did the right thing.

A black mark that lingers throughout the years and that fans across the NFL remember are things like drafting Ryan Leaf, Tony Mandarich, Jamarcus Russell, and yes, the Browns drafting Johnny Manziel (Brady Quinn too). Jerry wanting Manziel but agreeing to pass on him and instead getting a future HOFer doesn't quite fit that category

 

[OmerV]

Another version of more luck in draft choices is as recent as last year.
Stephen publicly saying that Surtain would have definitely been the choice if available.
Micah was an un intended plan B.

How was Zach Martin luck? It was a team decision to pass on Manziel and draft Zach Martin. They didn't just draw names out of a hat or flip a coin between the two.

As for Parsons, yes, there was luck involved, but that's the nature of the draft. You can't really call it an unintended plan because every team knows that other than the first few picks no team can plan as if the players they would like will fall to them exactly as they have it set up on their draft board. Accordingly, they plan for whatever the circumstances are at the time their pick rolls around. All any team can do is make the best choice they can based on what's available at the time.

 

[75boyz]

How was Zach Martin luck? It was a team decision to pass on Manziel and draft Zach Martin. They didn't just draw names out of a hat or flip a coin between the two.

As for Parsons, yes, there was luck involved, but that's the nature of the draft. You can't really call it an unintended plan because every team knows that other than the first few picks no team can plan as if the players they would like will fall to them exactly as they have it set up on their draft board. Accordingly, they plan for whatever the circumstances are at the time their pick rolls around. All any team can do is make the best choice they can based on what's available at the time.

In my eyes Jerry is still the dictator regardless of team or committee voting in the war room.
I count it as "lucky" he conceded to the group and did not assume absolute authority of the pick.

While I'm un able to be a fly on the wall in the Cowboy War Room I have often thought the think tank group allows Jerry more rope on risky choices in the 2nd. My opinion is based on the many character and/or drug and injury issues of the many picks that have been made in round 2.

Maybe their approach is more towards taking the safe pick in the first.

I did not know what other word choice other than luck would have more accurately described how Parsons was acquired but I see your reasoning as well.

jmo

 

[Whyjerry]

Yes, back at the time he did do that. That's not what he says now, and it's irrelevant anyway because they didn't take Manziel. Drafts are judged on what teams do, not what they considered and didn't do.

As I said, no doubt teams consider players all the time that they end up not taking and that end up a bust for other teams. That's naturally part of the draft process.

Admittedly Jerry probably shouldn't have voiced his thoughts after the draft 8 years ago, but ultimately all that matters is what they did. They made they right choice so it makes no sense to treat it as if they made the wrong choice.

Is there a Jerry the GM apologist in the house?

 

[jnday]

Sometimes there are players that are so good, we either take them for granted or even forget just HOW great they are. An offensive lineman like Zack Martin is a good example of this.

Just look at Zack Martin’s accomplishments since he arrived in Dallas in 2014:

• Five time First Team ALL PRO- 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2021
• Seven time Pro bowler
• Get this- He has more pro bowl appearances in his career (7) than holding penalties!
• In his entire career, he has FIVE holding penalties.
  
• He has been very durable- did not miss a game to injury until 2020.
• In his 8 NFL seasons, he’s only allowed 12 sacks!
  
• In six career playoff games, he has never allowed a sack.

So the next time any of us wonder, “Who is the BEST player on this team?” Zack Martin is the answer. This guy is headed to Canton, Ohio.

Martin is the second best olinemen in team history. Of course Larry Allen was the best, so there is no shame coming in second to to Larry.

 

[OmerV]

In my eyes Jerry is still the dictator regardless of team or committee voting in the war room.
I count it as "lucky" he conceded to the group and did not assume absolute authority of the pick.

While I'm un able to be a fly on the wall in the Cowboy War Room I have often thought the think tank group allows Jerry more rope on risky choices in the 2nd. My opinion is based on the many character and/or drug and injury issues of the many picks that have been made in round 2.

Maybe their approach is more towards taking the safe pick in the first.

I did not know what other word choice other than luck would have more accurately described how Parsons was acquired but I see your reasoning as well.

jmo

So, you think Jerry just flipped a coin rather than actually think about whether to go with his instinct or accept what others said? Come on. Jerry doesn't give in lightly, and I agree it's his ship, so he clearly would have weighed the decision and made the conscious choice to let the belief of others prevail.

 

[plasticman]

And he's our new left tackle.....

If only it were that simple.

 

[75boyz]

So, you think Jerry just flipped a coin rather than actually think about whether to go with his instinct or accept what others said? Come on. Jerry doesn't give in lightly, and I agree it's his ship, so he clearly would have weighed the decision and made the conscious choice to let the belief of others prevail.

I thought I kinda showed a contrast in the second rd approach of risky Jerry prospects to the more conservative group choice method in the first.

It's all a relative guessing game as to how the war room draft pick methodology breaks down unless you're actually in that room.

As previously stated, I think there is a difference in the risk/reward taken in the 2nd rd as compared to the first.

And gut instinct taken or not, Jerry still has final say and my categorizing his not taking his personal preference of Manziel over the group's wishes could easily be interpreted as fortunate(or luck) by many.


No worries, opinions vary I guess.

 

[OmerV]

Is there a Jerry the GM apologist in the house?

No there is not. Jerry is a horrible GM. I've always said that. But that doesn't mean anything anybody says about him makes sense.

Be realistic. Do you think in 25 years people are going to still be talking about that time the Cowboys took Zach Martin even though Jerry liked Manziel in the same vein as the Packers taking Mandarich, or the Chargers taking Leaf? Do you think they will talk about it at all for that matter?

Hell, it's not even what most NFL fans today think of when reflecting on Manziel being drafted. That honor goes to the Browns for taking yet another in a line of bad QBs with 1st round picks.

 

[OmerV]

I thought I kinda showed a contrast in the second rd approach of risky Jerry prospects to the more conservative group choice method in the first.

It's all a relative guessing game as to how the war room draft pick methodology breaks down unless you're actually in that room.

As previously stated, I think there is a difference in the risk/reward taken in the 2nd rd as compared to the first.

And gut instinct taken or not, Jerry still has final say and my categorizing his not taking his personal preference of Manziel over the group's wishes could easily be seen as fortunate(or luck) by many.


No worries, opinions vary I guess.

I'm just saying "luck" is something that happens to you - good fortune that falls on you outside of your control. Drafting Martin instead of Manziel was not something the Cowboys didn't control and just happened to work out anyway. It was the choice they made. The fact Jerry felt at the time another choice would have been better doesn't change the fact that they made the choice they did.

 

[exciter]

Sometimes there are players that are so good, we either take them for granted or even forget just HOW great they are. An offensive lineman like Zack Martin is a good example of this.

Just look at Zack Martin’s accomplishments since he arrived in Dallas in 2014:

• Five time First Team ALL PRO- 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2021
• Seven time Pro bowler
• Get this- He has more pro bowl appearances in his career (7) than holding penalties!
• In his entire career, he has FIVE holding penalties.
  
• He has been very durable- did not miss a game to injury until 2020.
• In his 8 NFL seasons, he’s only allowed 12 sacks!
  
• In six career playoff games, he has never allowed a sack.

So the next time any of us wonder, “Who is the BEST player on this team?” Zack Martin is the answer. This guy is headed to Canton, Ohio.

He was injured two seasons ago. Time to move on!

 

[75boyz]

I'm just saying "luck" is something that happens to you - good fortune that falls on you outside of your control. Drafting Martin instead of Manziel was not something the Cowboys didn't control and just happened to work out anyway. It was the choice they made. The fact Jerry felt at the time another choice would have been better doesn't change the fact that they made the choice they did.

In my opinion, "They" don't collectively tell Jerry to draft Jaylon Smith and Randy Gregory in the 2nd. You would be hard pressed to convince me Will McClay did that.

NFL GMs usually start taking those character/drug/injury risk reward assessments in the 4th rd and beyond.

It seems Jerry has been allowed to play with his hobby/football team beginning in the second round because his group has an agreed upon more consensus approach (given from Jerry) to handle the1st rd choice collectively.

It all boils down to the last decision maker and using "they" in the round one choices and Jerry in round 2 is about the only way it can be explained based on past choices and outcomes of said choices. The approach is not uniform whatsoever when comparing rounds 1 and 2.

Ultimately, Jerry has final say.
The team got lucky in my view that he did not and hopefully continues to not execute his personal final say in round one and stays with the group think approach to first rd selections that HE personally agreed to.

And to which HE has the ability to personally choose to not go with their choice as well.

That would be extremely "un" lucky if HE did so.

jmo