The NFL will become MLB

[AbeBeta]

You are comparing the revenue sharing in MLB to the NFL?????

Also, the TV revenue would not suffer due to the restriction already in place regarding black outs. And if the teams that were alsways out of it got some heat from their fans, maybe they would change.

Again, capitalism.

Again, you argue two sides. You call for capitalism but fail to recognize that the product -- the players -- getting huge deals is exactly what capitalism is about. Whatever the market will bear is the value of a player. Not what you think they should get paid.

Again, capitalism.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Again, you argue two sides. You call for capitalism but fail to recognize that the product -- the players -- getting huge deals is exactly what capitalism is about. Whatever the market will bear is the value of a player. Not what you think they should get paid.

Again, capitalism.

Well, you again fail to see my point.

Let's do this systematically.

1. I don't blame the players. They should do what they can to get all they can.

2. I blame the owners who agreed to this flawed system.

3. A player's value is not always what someone will pay for them. Ex: You pay Randy Moss 50 Mil for 5 years averaging 10 mil a year. Included in that figure is 25 mil signing bonus. In year two he goes out and beats up a cop, robs a bank and kidnaps a baby. (Just saying)
You are now stuck under the rules of the CBA and the cap to accelerate his entire signing boinus into the second year of his contract because he is probably cut. What happens is he now counts 20 mil against the cap. the remaining amount of his SB. IS he then worth that? Just because you in effect are paying it?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I am sorry but this is about the dumbest, myopic, and unfounded take that there is. I really dont know where to begin.

Lets start with baseball. Baseball has no salary cap and no revenue sharing. That is why you have teams like the Yankees who have a payroll of over $200 million and other teams like the Devil rays who have a payroll under $20 million. That less than 10% of NYs spending power. Tou put the disparity furter in perspective the theam with the secon highest payroll is at about $130 million, about 35% less than the Yanks.

You throw in a weak commisioner and you have no proactive policies and you end up with the mess that is steroids. People in Pittsubrgh or Miluakee or Tampa arent going to the games because their teams are terrible because they cannot afford the players to compete, not because they are high paid or 'watered' down. Games at Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park have been sold out for decades and will continue to do so.

As much as the baseball comparison was horrible the economic involved here make your stance even worse. The salary cap is set up that so of the total revenues produced by the NFL about half goes to the players and half goes to ownership. It is not as if Tagliabue or whover is the commisioner now just pulls a number from his pet monkey Stanley and hands it to Adam so he can tell us what is up.

If the league were to lower the pool for the players then all you would be doing is having the owners make miore money. As it stand now its an equitable distribution of cash especially when we are paying to see the players and not the owners.Down with the bourgeois pig. Rise the proletariat. But seriously, 50-50 is about as fair as you could get.

Furthermore it is not as if these contracts are something that is new. IT WAS LAST YEAR WHEN HUTCHINSON signed his deal. Noone was getting hysterical then and these deals for guards are right in line with what Hutch got. The price for top guards in free agency is stable. Think for a moment that Walter Jones was making MORE money than Hutch was and signed his contract before Hutch and I really begin to wonder why the hysteria now. Ever checked out Payton Mannings deal?

And this whole concept that all of a sudden the players are no longer in touch with the fans making a difference is laughable. i dont have the labor statisics in front of me but average Joe makes around $40k a year, going to work every day for 8 hours every day, he pays a mortgage for 30 years and drives each and every one of his cars at least for 5 years so he can pay that note too. Joe goes to the local bar to have a drink and he pays to go to most civic functions.

Pro football player since the mid to late 70s has no connection to Joe. The poorest of them makes ten times as much as Joe and the the majority of the players average 50 times more. During the season he goes to work for 4 to 6 hours a day and during the offseason he gets a couple months off and even then only comes in a max of 4 hours a day. He buys his house cash, he buys his cars cahsh, he gets paid to go to civic events and is invited to attend the finest places in town. He doesnt have to cook his own food he has a nutritionist do it. So when he looks out into the stand he might appreciate who you are but he simply is not living the life that most fans are living.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

I am sorry but this is about the dumbest, myopic, and unfounded take that there is. I really dont know where to begin.

Lets start with baseball. Baseball has no salary cap and no revenue sharing. That is why you have teams like the Yankees who have a payroll of over $200 million and other teams like the Devil rays who have a payroll under $20 million. That less than 10% of NYs spending power. Tou put the disparity furter in perspective the theam with the secon highest payroll is at about $130 million, about 35% less than the Yanks.

You throw in a weak commisioner and you have no proactive policies and you end up with the mess that is steroids. People in Pittsubrgh or Miluakee or Tampa arent going to the games because their teams are terrible because they cannot afford the players to compete, not because they are high paid or 'watered' down. Games at Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park have been sold out for decades and will continue to do so.

As much as the baseball comparison was horrible the economic involved here make your stance even worse. The salary cap is set up that so of the total revenues produced by the NFL about half goes to the players and half goes to ownership. It is not as if Tagliabue or whover is the commisioner now just pulls a number from his pet monkey Stanley and hands it to Adam so he can tell us what is up.

If the league were to lower the pool for the players then all you would be doing is having the owners make miore money. As it stand now its an equitable distribution of cash especially when we are paying to see the players and not the owners.Down with the bourgeois pig. Rise the proletariat. But seriously, 50-50 is about as fair as you could get.

Furthermore it is not as if these contracts are something that is new. IT WAS LAST YEAR WHEN HUTCHINSON signed his deal. Noone was getting hysterical then and these deals for guards are right in line with what Hutch got. The price for top guards in free agency is stable. Think for a moment that Walter Jones was making MORE money than Hutch was and signed his contract before Hutch and I really begin to wonder why the hysteria now. Ever checked out Payton Mannings deal?

And this whole concept that all of a sudden the players are no longer in touch with the fans making a difference is laughable. i dont have the labor statisics in front of me but average Joe makes around $40k a year, going to work every day for 8 hours every day, he pays a mortgage for 30 years and drives each and every one of his cars at least for 5 years so he can pay that note too. Joe goes to the local bar to have a drink and he pays to go to most civic functions.

Pro football player since the mid to late 70s has no connection to Joe. The poorest of them makes ten times as much as Joe and the the majority of the players average 50 times more. During the season he goes to work for 4 to 6 hours a day and during the offseason he gets a couple months off and even then only comes in a max of 4 hours a day. He buys his house cash, he buys his cars cahsh, he gets paid to go to civic events and is invited to attend the finest places in town. He doesnt have to cook his own food he has a nutritionist do it. So when he looks out into the stand he might appreciate who you are but he simply is not living the life that most fans are living.

If you want to talk about dumb look at this paragraph.

Hutchinson was one of the best. So is Manning. Yet guys like Nate Clemens who is good but not 80 mil. good and guys like Dockery who is good but not 45 mil good get's this kind of money. IT's not about the players getting the money, which is what you don't understand. IT's about marginal players getting this kind of money.

Which is exactly what you have in MLB. Marginal players getting way more than they are worth. You can argue one is worth what someone will pay but I have already blown that argument out of the water. Especially with the NFL cap rules.

You have way too many players and teams in this league and it has cause this problem along with the cap.

If you enjoy 8-8 teams making the playoffs so be it. I for one would rather see a better brand of ball played.

 

[AbeBeta]

3. A player's value is not always what someone will pay for them. Ex: You pay Randy Moss 50 Mil for 5 years averaging 10 mil a year. Included in that figure is 25 mil signing bonus. In year two he goes out and beats up a cop, robs a bank and kidnaps a baby. (Just saying)
You are now stuck under the rules of the CBA and the cap to accelerate his entire signing boinus into the second year of his contract because he is probably cut. What happens is he now counts 20 mil against the cap. the remaining amount of his SB. IS he then worth that? Just because you in effect are paying it?

With the increase in the cap teams, if they had practiced some form of responsible management, could absorb cap hit. Teams are increasingly allowed to go after bonuses when players do something wrong. That's a huge advantage in the only major professional league where contracts are not guaranteed. Also, teams are now allowed to spread the cap hit over two years if they want. Tons of flexibility but also consequences for bad decisions. A team signs a turd and this happens then they need to spend more wisely in the future. Oh yeah, in MLB if this happened, you'd be on the hook for the entire deal. The whole freaking thing, not just the bonus.

And players value is always what someone is willing to pay -- that is how value is determined. In fact, that is what "value" is.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

With the increase in the cap teams, if they had practiced some form of responsible management, could absorb cap hit. Teams are increasingly allowed to go after bonuses when players do something wrong. That's a huge advantage in the only major professional league where contracts are not guaranteed. Also, teams are now allowed to spread the cap hit over two years if they want. Tons of flexibility but also consequences for bad decisions. A team signs a turd and this happens then they need to spend more wisely in the future. Oh yeah, in MLB if this happened, you'd be on the hook for the entire deal. The whole freaking thing, not just the bonus.

And players value is always what someone is willing to pay -- that is how value is determined. In fact, that is what "value" is.

Again I think I proved otherwise. It may be what he is worth at that moment but we all know that's not the case with these contracts. You have to have your head in the sand to belive that.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If you want to talk about dumb look at this paragraph.

Hutchinson was one of the best. So is Manning. Yet guys like Nate Clemens who is good but not 80 mil. good and guys like Dockery who is good but not 45 mil good get's this kind of money. IT's not about the players getting the money, which is what you don't understand. IT's about marginal players getting this kind of money.

Which is exactly what you have in MLB. Marginal players getting way more than they are worth. You can argue one is worth what someone will pay but I have already blown that argument out of the water. Especially with the NFL cap rules.

You have way too many players and teams in this league and it has cause this problem along with the cap.

If you enjoy 8-8 teams making the playoffs so be it. I for one would rather see a better brand of ball played.

And you have no idea how to determine worth. You just pull magic fairy numbers and think they sound good. Worth is a relative thing and shifts completely with the market. It is quitisential capitalism. Also value of the supply is relative as well. The best available is the best available.

But i guess you want someone from the commisioners office or just yourself that will sit around and arbitrarily decide what a players is worth so you can fit it into your sensibilities. Its market forces that are deciding these values and I have no idea why that owuld be a bad thing. John Stuart Mill hates you btw.

And for that last bit then you should just go be a Yankees or a Mets or a Red Sox fan so you can see your team have such a huge disparity in wins and losses so you can feel better about it.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again I think I proved otherwise. It may be what he is worth at that moment but we all know that's not the case with these contracts. You have to have your head in the sand to belive that.

Why because you say so?

i know its an evil plot by the owners to pay the players omg the humanity. have you ever even take an economics class. What happens in a market with a large demand and a very small supply?

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Why because you say so?

i know its an evil plot by the owners to pay the players omg the humanity. have you ever even take an economics class. What happens in a market with a large demand and a very small supply?

For your information I happen to own several companies and on top of that I employ in the neighborhood of 600 employees.
Questioning my economics background is a bit silly but let clue you in on a little something fuzzy, not all knowledge is gained in a classroom.

You have a lot to learn.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

And you have no idea how to determine worth. You just pull magic fairy numbers and think they sound good. Worth is a relative thing and shifts completely with the market. It is quitisential capitalism. Also value of the supply is relative as well. The best available is the best available.

But i guess you want someone from the commisioners office or just yourself that will sit around and arbitrarily decide what a players is worth so you can fit it into your sensibilities. Its market forces that are deciding these values and I have no idea why that owuld be a bad thing. John Stuart Mill hates you btw.

And for that last bit then you should just go be a Yankees or a Mets or a Red Sox fan so you can see your team have such a huge disparity in wins and losses so you can feel better about it.

I don't like mediocre anything let alone football. Some people have higher standards. I'm sorry you don't.

 

[sacase]

I think you are mad that Teams like DAllas can't just go and buy good teams anymore. I also think you are jealous that the players are getting a fair cut and that fair cut is many times the amount of money you make. I mean all of your posts in this thread reak of jealousy. All of your arguments are FLAWED. if the money is there, someone is going to get it. We watch the players not the owners, so the players getting the money they are getting is not to bad at all. I mean really, if someone offered you 150k to load a truck, wouldn't you jump on it in a heart beat. Get the nastalgia stuff out your head its exactly that, there is no player in the 70's that could compete with players of today. Times changes, change with them or get left behind.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

For your information I happen to own several companies and on top of that I employ in the neighborhood of 600 employees.
Questioning my economics background is a bit silly but let clue you in on a little something fuzzy, not all knowledge is gained in a classroom.

You have a lot to learn.

Im very aware of that but if you have something pertinent to bring from that knowedge base then feel free to bring it because all i am seeing is you telling us what players are worth or not worth with ZERO to back it up.

What i see is someone that has a certain way that the world is supposed to work and if it doesnt work that way then it is terribly bad. You provide nothing to substantiate this claim of overspending and you igniore anything that has to do with what high school kids learn about economics.

Im not going to get in a pissing contest but I do believe it bearws mentioning that all my knowledge is not entirely book based i helped my brother run our families HVAC company for several years and having seen the service labor market as it was at that time especially as Spring rolls around i can say with firsthand knowledge how it is to operate in a poor labor market. It is what it is not what you want it to be.

You seem to say not all knowledge is to be learned from books but normally that is a copout from someone who has nothing substantive to say. If you honestly have 600 employees and given what your sig is i can guess to the nature of your 'business.,' then it is beyond me how you can not appreciate what is going on in the NFLs labor market.

But regardless if you have some practical knowledge to bring to the discussion then dont tell me you have it and expect me to care when you cant or wont show it.

 

[ZeroClub]

I think CajunCowboy is on the right track when he says that the NFL is heading down the wrong path.

--

I personally think that the emphasis on wide-open offense and overly complex pass interference rules allow too many games to hinge on the calls (or noncalls) of officials. And two years ago, we even had a Super Bowl determined by questionable interpretations of overly complex rules.

And today, many people seem to confuse "close games" with "great games."

--

As far as the collective bargaining agreement goes, it creates problems because it currently discourages long term associations between teams and players.

The agreement could be modified, though, to fix some of the problems.

For example, there could be a rule that identifies "longevity players" - players who have been on a given team for a specific period of time, say 8 years.

The salary of "longevity players" might cost less against the salary cap. Maybe they wouldn't count against the cap at all, maybe only 50% of their salary would count, or maybe their first couple of million in salary wouldn't count but everything thereafter would. But there would be some salary cap break associated with keeping longer term players. Maybe the league would have a "longevity player salary cap" that operated semi-independently of the team's general salary cap. Regardless as to the specifics, the general idea here is that there would an incentive to teams keeping some of their longer term players.

And if the agreement could be structured such that the average player stood to make the same amount of money (i.e., same percentage of the NFL's overall take) as is currently the case, maybe the players union would agree to it.

I think an approach like this would have a chance of improving the fan's experience of the game.

--

Chad Johnson doesn't bother me. Actually, I like him. He's just a fun-loving youngster who is no more toxic than Billy "White Shoes" Johnson.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think CajunCowboy is on the right track when he says that the NFL is heading down the wrong path.

Exactly what path is that? The way i see it the owners are making more money, the players are making more money and fans are still coming in droves to perpetually sold out stadiums.

If you think the league is too watered down then go watch baseball becuase the fact that pretty much each and every game of the NFL season is competetive is a good thing.

Maybe you enjoyed the days of us kicking the crap out of the Cards or Browns every week 30-7 but to me its just like cheering for the house at the blackjack table.

So really exactly where is this path taking us?

 

[ZeroClub]

So really exactly where is this path taking us?

Cheering for laundry.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Cheering for laundry.

Well free agency is not going anywhere and its been cheering for laundry for decades now. But seeing how the team you root for has signed every major star weve developed lately within this system i dont see the big deal.

I mean this market is full of guards and second tier players. how on earth do you extrapolate in this market the bigger names going from franchise to franchise? or in any way demonstrating a trend in that direction.

the unguaranteed money makes it so teams can actually keep the players they want and not have to pay players that cannot perform. this isnt exactly baseball where most franchises are farm clubs for the big markets in the northeast.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't like mediocre anything let alone football. Some people have higher standards. I'm sorry you don't.

I missed this little gem.

Perhaps you get satisfaction in winning with weighted dice or cheering for the house in blackjack. To me there is very little satisfaction in knowing that i win because the odds are stacked dramatically in my favor.

So if you think that TV revenues and payroll are a 'higher' standard than guile, skill, strength and determination well then I guess Ill just take that low road.

 

[ZeroClub]

Well free agency is not going anywhere and its been cheering for laundry for decades now. But seeing how the team you root for has signed every major star weve developed lately within this system i dont see the big deal.

I mean this market is full of guards and second tier players. how on earth do you extrapolate in this market the bigger names going from franchise to franchise? or in any way demonstrating a trend in that direction.

The collective bargaining agreement could be altered in such a way to increase, somewhat, the continuity of rosters.

I'd argue that such a change would be welcomed by fans.

Fans in New Olreans are saddened to see Joe Horn cut for salary cap reasons.

Steelers fans see Porter sacrificed for the salary cap.

I was driving through St. Louis at mid-week, listening to their sports radio stations, and heard Rams fans lamenting the departure of Adam Timmerman. He was let go due to salary cap considerations. He wasn't a big star. "Just" a fan favorite.

I'm saying that if the NFL tweaked its rules such that the rules didn't encourage the departures of the Horns, Porters, and Timmermans of this league, the league would be a better place.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The collective bargaining agreement could be altered in such a way to increase, somewhat, the continuity of rosters.

I'd argue that such a change would be welcomed by fans.

Fans in New Olreans are saddened to see Joe Horn cut for salary cap reasons.

Steelers fans see Porter sacrificed for the salary cap.

I was driving through St. Louis at mid-week, listening to their sports radio stations, and heard Rams fans lamenting the departure of Adam Timmerman. He was let go due to salary cap considerations. He wasn't a big star. "Just" a fan favorite.

I'm saying that if the NFL tweaked its rules such that the rules didn't encourage the departures of the Horns, Porters, and Timmermans of this league, the league would be a better place.

I can understand to an extent what you are saying. i would be a liar if i said i wasnt saddened to see Ken Norton, Mark Stepnoski or Kevin Gogan leave in the mid ninties onto greener pastures.

OTOH, I think alot of that had to do with the way we were structuring contracts. The backloaded deals inevitably put teams in situations wheer they have to make tough choices. One thing the Jones' are doing lately is structuring straight deals so as to not 'mortgage' their futures. As such were going to keep our Wittens and Williams and Newmans and Romos.

Its sad but i also feel that the players have the freedom to go and work where they choose and is not chosen for them. I know its sad but the pursuit of happiness is something that every man should have and short of indentured servitude there is no way keep players on the same team.

 

[Zen]

The Nfl is the best run league there is. Mainly because they have the fairest system that gives all teams a chance at winning, it is not perfect but what is. The revenue sharing allows teams outside of the New York to compete. (That Owner Mara was one smart unselfish visionary.)