The NFL's Official Change to What Is A Catch: Dez Bryant play rule rewritten *merge*

[DogFace]

A RECEIVER has to hold on to the ball when he hits the ground or no catch, incomplete. A RUNNER is down by contact, if there is contact with the opposition or fumble if no contact. Two separate independent rules.

A receiver is no longer a receiver after the 3 steps to the catch process are completed. Regardless if he starts or completes them after he starts to fall.

That's why Steretore and Blandino were looking for another move as was pointed out earlier in this thread. They said they didn't see enough of a move. They were looking for one after he started to fall. They wouldn't have been if they weren't searching for the third part of the process if it didn't matter because he was falling. They already knew the ball was going to pop out.

 

[nathanlt]

A RECEIVER has to hold on to the ball when he hits the ground or no catch, incomplete. A RUNNER is down by contact, if there is contact with the opposition or fumble if no contact. Two separate independent rules.

The blandino defenders have gotten so desperate when it comes to defending what was written. Someone posted that initial contact means the THIRD step. Go ahead, someone find a dictionary that says initial means the third occurrence.

Good luck.

And while you're at it
Tell me how Dez's second step was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.
Tell me how Dez's third step was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.
Tell me how Dez's fourth contact, his right elbow, was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.
Tell me how Dez's fifth contact, his left elbow was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.

through contact with the ground does not describe any thing more than the first step. It certainly does NOT describe any time beyond DOWN BY CONTACT.

No written rule justifies taking Dez's CATCH away.

 

[percyhoward]

You are correct, so long as the 3rd foot was down before he began to fall.

Yep, the third step had to be a football move. One of several that Dez made that completed the catch process.

 

[percyhoward]

The three part process always applies, even if out of bounds or in the end zone. Only a runner scores a TD as soon as he crosses the goal line, not a receiver.

There is no need for the third part in the end zone, and no time for the third part in other situations.

 

[percyhoward]

All correct, except the time to make a football move is not only after the catch, but also after two feet are down inbounds and before he begins to fall.

Nope, players make football moves while falling all the time. We know this not just because it would be impossible to identify the moment that a player "begins to fall," but also because of plays like Julius Thomas, week 2, 2013, that involve football moves while players are clearly falling.

 

[percyhoward]

If you know how to read, you can see those glaring mistakes. He doesn't write the rules, he just explains them, and it is interesting how many times other directors disagree with him. He has made mistakes, many of which he did correct later. That is probably one of those he corrected later. I have seen him and other directors tweet, "When a receiver reaches, he risks an incomplete pass".

I'd like to see that quote then, because a "receiver" can't reach with the football. A player who reaches with the ball is by definition a runner. You can't reach with a ball that hasn't been caught yet.

 

[percyhoward]

Going to the ground does not negate part C. Dropping the ball when it hit the ground negates the catch per 8-3-item 1.

You're talking about a rule that applies only to receivers (players in the act of catching a pass).

A contacted runner losing the ball on contact with the ground is ruled down at that spot. You cannot then go back in time and "negate" what made him a runner (the already finished catch).

 

[nathanlt]

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RECEIVER AND RUNNER, STOP DISCUSSING IT. DOWN BY CONTACT APPLIES TO BOTH.

 

[Joefrl]

By "use a little common sense", do you mean introduce new concepts and phrases that don't exist in the rule? Rulebooks don't work that way. What is written is what the rule is. If the intent was NOT captured in the chosen words, then the INTENT DOES NOT APPLY.

The rule is left open to interpretation, because it is poorly written. One has to interpret it some way, and the only way to do it is to use "common sense". Or should I say "logic", because it is illogical to think 8-3-item 1 would not apply. Think of Dez as an outfielder. As soon as the ball hit the ground the ump would wave off the catch, even if he never lost control!

 

[Joefrl]

The blandino defenders have gotten so desperate when it comes to defending what was written. Someone posted that initial contact means the THIRD step. Go ahead, someone find a dictionary that says initial means the third occurrence.

Good luck.

And while you're at it
Tell me how Dez's second step was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.
Tell me how Dez's third step was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.
Tell me how Dez's fourth contact, his right elbow, was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.
Tell me how Dez's fifth contact, his left elbow was initial contact, or through contact with the ground.

through contact with the ground does not describe any thing more than the first step. It certainly does NOT describe any time beyond DOWN BY CONTACT.

No written rule justifies taking Dez's CATCH away.

How can you justify saying Rule 8-3 item 1 does not apply? Going to the ground in the act of catching a pass...............How can you say the entire act of catching a pass was done before he started going to the ground? Convince me.

 

[Joefrl]

A receiver is no longer a receiver after the 3 steps to the catch process are completed. Regardless if he starts or completes them after he starts to fall.

That's why Steretore and Blandino were looking for another move as was pointed out earlier in this thread. They said they didn't see enough of a move. They were looking for one after he started to fall. They wouldn't have been if they weren't searching for the third part of the process if it didn't matter because he was falling. They already knew the ball was going to pop out.

Rule 8-3-item 1 If a player is going to the ground in the act of catching a pass..............means the act of catching a pass must be done before he starts going to the ground. Did you notice that every single former referee on twitter ruled it an incomplete pass?

 

[Joefrl]

I'd like to see that quote then, because a "receiver" can't reach with the football. A player who reaches with the ball is by definition a runner. You can't reach with a ball that hasn't been caught yet.

That's illogical, either a receiver or a runner can reach with the football.

 

[Joefrl]

There is no need for the third part in the end zone, and no time for the third part in other situations.

All three parts of a catch, A,B, & C apply all of the time C can take place out of bounds

There is no need for the third part in the end zone, and no time for the third part in other situations.

The 3 parts of a catch, A,B, & C always apply. C can take place out of bounds, in the end zone, anywhere! Notice it does not say C has to take place in the field of play, your brain is adding that in!

 

[Joefrl]

Nope, players make football moves while falling all the time. We know this not just because it would be impossible to identify the moment that a player "begins to fall," but also because of plays like Julius Thomas, week 2, 2013, that involve football moves while players are clearly falling.

Again, rule 8-3-item 1 "If a player is going to the ground in the act of catching a pass.................What is the act of catching a pass? A,B, & C from rule 8-3! Yes it is a judgement call, which is why it is impossible to get them all right. And generally, replay can't and shouldn't reverse these plays.

 

[Joefrl]

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RECEIVER AND RUNNER, STOP DISCUSSING IT. DOWN BY CONTACT APPLIES TO BOTH.

Basically, you just told me that rule 8-3-item 1 does not exist. Problem is, it does!!

 

[Joefrl]

You're talking about a rule that applies only to receivers (players in the act of catching a pass).

A contacted runner losing the ball on contact with the ground is ruled down at that spot. You cannot then go back in time and "negate" what made him a runner (the already finished catch).

That is correct. Now, which of those two ideas apply to Dez? Receiver or Runner? You are right, it makes a difference. They said Receiver, if so incomplete is correct! I said, if he was tripped by Shields, he never had a chance to become a Runner. If somehow he avoided the trip, it was close, THEN he was a Runner, complete!
I also like to add in baseball it would be no catch no matter what, as soon as the ball touched the ground. Even if possession was never lost.

 

[nathanlt]

How can you justify saying Rule 8-3 item 1 does not apply? Going to the ground in the act of catching a pass...............How can you say the entire act of catching a pass was done before he started going to the ground? Convince me.

Oh wow. Whether you think the football move applied, OR Rule 8-3 item 1 applied, DEZ caught the BALL!!

Player Going to the Ground.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control,the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

The bolded portion IS IDENTICAL TO DOWN BY CONTACT. It introduces NO NEW CONCEPTS, NO NEW DEFINITIONS!

Dez must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of down by contact. The NFL did not give a precise explanation of what throughout the process of contacting the ground means, so..... DOWN BY CONTACT APPLIES. There's even a case to be made that Dez's first step contacting the ground was enough to meet the language of what I bolded.

Bottom line: No language in the rulebook supported taking away Dez's catch, which was a CATCH NINE TIMES OVER, according to the written rules. Blandino's podium speeches are irrelevant. Twitter referees are irrelevant. What was written is all that matters.

 

[blindzebra]

Oh wow. Whether you think the football move applied, OR Rule 8-3 item 1 applied, DEZ caught the BALL!!

Player Going to the Ground.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control,the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

The bolded portion IS IDENTICAL TO DOWN BY CONTACT. It introduces NO NEW CONCEPTS, NO NEW DEFINITIONS!

Dez must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of down by contact. The NFL did not give a precise explanation of what throughout the process of contacting the ground means, so..... DOWN BY CONTACT APPLIES. There's even a case to be made that Dez's first step contacting the ground was enough to meet the language of what I bolded.

Bottom line: No language in the rulebook supported taking away Dez's catch, which was a CATCH NINE TIMES OVER, according to the written rules. Blandino's podium speeches are irrelevant. Twitter referees are irrelevant. What was written is all that matters.

Dude he is a troll, he signed up yesterday and has only posted in this thread. It is either 2 deep, KJJ or blindfaith's 2nd account.

 

[DogFace]

Rule 8-3-item 1 If a player is going to the ground in the act of catching a pass..............means the act of catching a pass must be done before he starts going to the ground. Did you notice that every single former referee on twitter ruled it an incomplete pass?

So can a player be judged to be going to the ground anytime he falls. After the ball is caught and he runs 10 steps then falls is no different than the case with Dez. Once the process is complete the catch is complete. He's a runner.
If not explain to me, as I clearly asked before, why did Blandino and Steretore say they were looking for a move after he was falling if it didn't matter?

They were because it would've completed the process regardless of the fall.

 

[nathanlt]

Dude he is a troll, he signed up yesterday and has only posted in this thread. It is either 2 deep, KJJ or blindfaith's 2nd account.

i hear ya.