The NFL's Official Change to What Is A Catch: Dez Bryant play rule rewritten *merge*

[nathanlt]

Had to figure this one out like a puzzle: They must have ruled Shields never touched him. Therefore, he pretty much did have until he touched the ground with something other than hands and feet to make a football move. Did he pitch the ball to a teammate? No. Did he dive or lunge? Maybe. Did he avoid a tackle? No. These are the things they were looking for per 8-3-C.

He wasn't yet down at half yard line because he had not completed the catch. If the ball hadn't touched the ground, he still could have scored a TD, if the ruling was that Shields did not touch him.
Remember a running play ends as soon as a body part other than hands or feet touch the ground. A receiver has the opportunity to catch a pass, all the way until the ball touches the ground, even if he is lying on the ground himself.
The rules are completely different! Stop trying to compare them or put them together like a puzzle. That does not work.

Frankly, your logic is .... um..... puzzling.

 

[nathanlt]

That's not in the 2014 rules, but I bet this is in the 2012 rules, the one you skipped:
A.R. 8.9 While in midair, a receiver firmly takes hold of a pass, but loses possession of the ball when his shoulder lands on the ground with or without being contacted by an opponent.
Ruling: Incomplete pass. Receiver most hold onto the ball when he alights on the ground in order to complete the reception.

I looked it up, Alight means......to descend and settle.

Bingo! Checkmate!!

Dez didn't hit with his shoulder, the above scenario doesn't apply, he hit with his right elbow, after 3 steps. Due to your admission that he lunged, and avoided the defender, you've already conceded two football moves. The ball did not come out until after his second elbow hit. It is a CATCH, by RULE.

Another note, initial contact with the ground is Dez's first step. He completed that without losing the ball.
second contact with the ground is Dez's second step. He completed that without losing the ball.
third contact with the ground is Dez's third step. He completed that without losing the ball.
fourth contact with the ground is Dez's right hand. He completed that without losing the ball.
fifth contact with the ground is Dez's right elbow. Ball never moved, play is over. Down by contact.

BY RULE, DEZ CAUGHT THE BALL. You've already conceded that with your admission of two football moves.

 

[blindzebra]

That's not in the 2014 rules, but I bet this is in the 2012 rules, the one you skipped:
A.R. 8.9 While in midair, a receiver firmly takes hold of a pass, but loses possession of the ball when his shoulder lands on the ground with or without being contacted by an opponent.
Ruling: Incomplete pass. Receiver most hold onto the ball when he alights on the ground in order to complete the reception.

I looked it up, Alight means......to descend and settle.

Bingo! Checkmate!!

Are you that freaking dense? You are taking a play where the player only completed part A of the process.

Dez did not dive, Dez did not fall directly to the ground.

The case play I highlighted had a receiver catch the ball, land with 2 feet, get contacted by the opponent causing them to go to the ground, and reached out the ball toward the goal line. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN GB! And what did the NFL Rule Book say? That the player was down by contact and it was a completed pass.

That is Bingo and checkmate, unless you are a complete moron or a troll.

 

[percyhoward]

If you and I disagree on an interpretation, chances are I am right.

Here are the NFL's interpretations.

play: Johnson, week 1 2013
ruling: no catch
explanation: "Calvin did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line. So this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."
source: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...00000246515/Calvin-Johnson-rule-strikes-again

play: Thomas, week 2 2013
ruling: catch
explanation: "Watch what Julius does. He's gonna get control, take two steps...and now reach for the goal line. He has established himself as a runner."
source: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...00000246515/Calvin-Johnson-rule-strikes-again

play: Bryant, 2014 playoffs
ruling: no catch
explanation: "in order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of in our view, all part of his momentum in going to the ground."
source: http://nflcommunications.com/2015/0...blandino-on-nfl-gameday-final-on-nfl-network/

In all three of these cases, a player went to the ground either shortly after completing the catch process, or while in the act of catching a pass. In all three cases, part C of the catch process (the football move) was the deciding factor for the official in ruling the former or the latter. In all three cases, the football move in question was a reach for the goal line. In the only case that was ruled a catch, the player had control and two steps, then reached for the goal line. In the two cases that were not ruled catches, the player had control and two steps, but the reach was either not soon enough (Johnson), or not obvious enough (Bryant).

It's easy to see why Johnson's catch did not stand, because the order was wrong (control, football move, two feet). Dez's isn't nearly that simple, because the order was correct (control, two feet, football move). It all boiled down to the move not being obvious enough. So that's where we look. The questions that need to be asked are:

Logically, what would have made a two-handed reach more of a football move than a one-handed reach? and

Logically, how would extending his arm have moved the ball any closer to the goal line?

 

[blindzebra]

I remember the Victor Cruz TD against us two years ago where he did not get his second foot down and lost the ball and they upheld it as a TD. I had a Twitter back and forth with Pereia who finally admitted that it should have been rules incomplete.

 

[Joefrl]

Dez didn't hit with his shoulder, the above scenario doesn't apply, he hit with his right elbow, after 3 steps. Due to your admission that he lunged, and avoided the defender, you've already conceded two football moves. The ball did not come out until after his second elbow hit. It is a CATCH, by RULE.

Another note, initial contact with the ground is Dez's first step. He completed that without losing the ball.
second contact with the ground is Dez's second step. He completed that without losing the ball.
third contact with the ground is Dez's third step. He completed that without losing the ball.
fourth contact with the ground is Dez's right hand. He completed that without losing the ball.
fifth contact with the ground is Dez's right elbow. Ball never moved, play is over. Down by contact.

BY RULE, DEZ CAUGHT THE BALL. You've already conceded that with your admission of two football moves.

All I have conceded is MAYBE there was a move to avoid contact (inconclusive) or a lunge. Maybe. That's all I see that could be the type of move they are looking for. None of the other stuff you mention matters, it has to be more distinct then that. The first two feet down are not steps, one can't take a step until they get two feet down first. He left his feet at that point to try to avoid the trip. Can't tell if he succeeded. If he did, it's a catch IMO.
If he was tripped, Item 1 kicks in and he must hold on to the ball until he alights with the ground (as the example says), descend and settle and still have the ball in his possession. He didn't hold on to the ball, so If he was tripped, it is an incomplete pass.

There is only one distinct point that determines if Item 1 kicks in, and that is when the player begins to go to the ground. At that point, it is either yes or no for Item 1, and it doesn't change after that regardless of what happens. The question that determines if Item 1 kicks in is.................Is he a runner?

 

[DallasEast]

agenda
noun agen·da \ə-ˈjen-də\

: an underlying often ideological plan or program

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agenda



One thread. One topic. 72 out of 72 posts. Agenda.

 

[blindzebra]

agenda
noun agen·da \ə-ˈjen-də\

: an underlying often ideological plan or program

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agenda



One thread. One topic. 72 out of 72 posts. Agenda.

It's KJJ's second account.

 

[DallasEast]

It's KJJ's second account.

That would not be surprising if true.

 

[percyhoward]

All I have conceded is MAYBE there was a move to avoid contact (inconclusive) or a lunge. Maybe. That's all I see that could be the type of move they are looking for. None of the other stuff you mention matters, it has to be more distinct then that. The first two feet down are not steps, one can't take a step until they get two feet down first. He left his feet at that point to try to avoid the trip. Can't tell if he succeeded. If he did, it's a catch IMO.
If he was tripped, Item 1 kicks in and he must hold on to the ball until he alights with the ground (as the example says), descend and settle and still have the ball in his possession. He didn't hold on to the ball, so If he was tripped, it is an incomplete pass.

There is only one distinct point that determines if Item 1 kicks in, and that is when the player begins to go to the ground. At that point, it is either yes or no for Item 1, and it doesn't change after that regardless of what happens. The question that determines if Item 1 kicks in is.................Is he a runner?

Read the thread and you'll know exactly what type of move they were looking for. Then you won't be asking questions that were already answered. Also, I want you to explain how to determine the point where a player "begins" to fall, and find ONE official explanation of a call that refers to this point.

 

[percyhoward]

Uh, Dez never braced himself. That is the key part of that example. Once he started going to the ground, he went all the way to the ground!

So did Thomas, who couldn't even try to brace himself because both hands were on the ball. The "key part" is not that a player must brace himself, it's that bracing yourself is a football move that completes the catch process. Just as Thomas' reach was, and Dez's should have been.

 

[Joefrl]

Read the thread and you'll know exactly what type of move they were looking for. Then you won't be asking questions that were already answered. Also, I want you to explain how to determine the point where a player "begins" to fall, and find ONE official explanation of a call that refers to this point.

I know exactly what they are looking for. Running after the catch, pitching or lateraling or handing the ball to a teammate, Diving with the ball. They are not looking for a simple stretch or taking a step.
A little kid can see when a player begins to fall, it is not hard. If contact happens right before one falls, there is your starting point, the contact. If there is no contact, it is not hard to tell when one has lost their balance.

 

[Joefrl]

So did Thomas, who couldn't even try to brace himself because both hands were on the ball. The "key part" is not that a player must brace himself, it's that bracing yourself is a football move that completes the catch process. Just as Thomas' reach was, and Dez's should have been.

Thomas lunged for the goal after 2 feet were down and before he ever lost balance, that's a football move!

 

[nathanlt]

All I have conceded is MAYBE there was a move to avoid contact (inconclusive) or a lunge. Maybe. That's all I see that could be the type of move they are looking for. None of the other stuff you mention matters, it has to be more distinct then that. The first two feet down are not steps, one can't take a step until they get two feet down first. He left his feet at that point to try to avoid the trip. Can't tell if he succeeded. If he did, it's a catch IMO.
If he was tripped, Item 1 kicks in and he must hold on to the ball until he alights with the ground (as the example says), descend and settle and still have the ball in his possession. He didn't hold on to the ball, so If he was tripped, it is an incomplete pass.

There is only one distinct point that determines if Item 1 kicks in, and that is when the player begins to go to the ground. At that point, it is either yes or no for Item 1, and it doesn't change after that regardless of what happens. The question that determines if Item 1 kicks in is.................Is he a runner?

So if it MAYBE was a catch, the NFL doesn't have conclusive evidence to overturn the ruling on the field, and end a teams playoff run. Thank you. You're done.

 

[blindzebra]

Thomas lunged for the goal after 2 feet were down and before he ever lost balance, that's a football move!

Dez got 2 feet down before he lost his balance.

 

[5Stars]

That would not be surprising if true.

It's not KJJ's account....he does not use the word "FAN" 40 times!

KJJ does not like us FANS. lol

 

[percyhoward]

Thomas lunged for the goal after 2 feet were down and before he ever lost balance, that's a football move!

How does one lunge before losing one's balance, exactly? Once you lunge, there's nothing holding you up, so you have nothing to balance ON.

 

[percyhoward]

I know exactly what they are looking for. Running after the catch, pitching or lateraling or handing the ball to a teammate, Diving with the ball.

You've read the official explanations above. What was the football move in question in all three plays?

Hint: it's not one that you listed.

 

[blindzebra]

You've read the official explanations above. What was the football move in question in all three plays?

Hint: it's not one that you listed.

He already is refuting the 2013 Case Book play that was identical to the Dez play because it was from 2013, even though there were no rule changes to the section on catches in 2014 so the Case Book was still current.

 

[percyhoward]

He already is refuting the 2013 Case Book play that was identical to the Dez play because it was from 2013, even though there were no rule changes to the section on catches in 2014 so the Case Book was still current.

If Dez had actually braced his fall (meaning his hand hits instead of his forearm), that's got to be a TD even under the new rule. But as a football move, bracing is no more valid than reaching, so that case book example is basically the Dez play -- control with two feet plus the football move. It's also further proof that you CAN make a football move while falling, obviously.