The NFL's Official Change to What Is A Catch: Dez Bryant play rule rewritten *merge*

[nathanlt]

I did say "did Dez avoid a tackler? Maybe
That's the only reasonable argument you do have. Unfortunately:
Note 1: If there is any question by the covering official(s) as to whether a forward pass is complete, intercepted, or incomplete, it always will be ruled incomplete.

By rule, Dez caught the ball.

However, by your stupid note, there's no need for a rulebook whatsoever. That opens the door for tampering with games, by any official who bet on the game, and who wants to take away a CATCH, WITHOUT REGARD TO THE RULES.

Incidentally, the covering official called it a CATCH. So even by your Note, Dez CAUGHT THE BALL.

 

[Joefrl]

1) You cannot insert your imagination into the vagueness of the written rule. I referenced a well defined concept for ending a process to reduce the ambiguity of when the process ends. It's the only way to avoid personal interpretation and imagination, like you would rather do.

2) Even in your imagined interpretation of the rule, Dez is somehow both definitively down at the half yard line, because of his right elbow touching, but it takes a few more seconds of motion to figure out if he actually caught the ball. That's insane. The catch is in question only until Dez makes the football move of warding off the defender, which you left out of your football move, examples. it was written as an example of a football move, but, go ahead, pretend it doesn't exist. You have to live in wild imagination to state that Dez didn't CATCH it.

Receiver or runner doesn't matter. If the ball is secured, and it was Dez was down by contact, whether he was a receiver or runner, due to the ambiguity of the rule. There really is no controversy to whether or not he caught it. The only controversy is that Blandino TAMPERED with the game.

He wasn't yet down at half yard line because he had not completed the catch. If the ball hadn't touched the ground, he still could have scored a TD, if the ruling was that Shields did not touch him.
Remember a running play ends as soon as a body part other than hands or feet touch the ground. A receiver has the opportunity to catch a pass, all the way until the ball touches the ground, even if he is lying on the ground himself.
The rules are completely different! Stop trying to compare them or put them together like a puzzle. That does not work.

 

[blindzebra]

These are case plays from the 2012 NFL Rules:

A.R. 8.8 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE PASS Second-and-5 on A35. A1 throws a forward pass to A2 at the A40. A2 dives for the ball and controls the ball in the air. The first thing to hit the ground is the point of the ball. a) A2 briefly loses control of the ball when it hits the ground; or b) A2 never loses control of the ball. Rulings: a) Third-and-5 on A35. Incomplete pass. b) First-and-10 on A40. A.R. 8.9 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 who dives and controls the ball while airborne at the A38, but the ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on A30. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

33 A.R. 8.10 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 sends him across the goal line and to the ground in the end zone. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on B25. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.11 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 at the A45 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 causes A2 to go to the ground where he maintains control of the ball. Ruling: First-and-10 on A45. The pass is complete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and maintained possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2 keeps his balance, gets both feet down, and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/26_2012_Official_CaseBook.pdf

The bolded section is the Dez play exactly.

 

[DogFace]

Had to figure this one out like a puzzle: They must have ruled Shields never touched him. Therefore, he pretty much did have until he touched the ground with something other than hands and feet to make a football move. Did he pitch the ball to a teammate? No. Did he dive or lunge? Maybe. Did he avoid a tackle? No. These are the things they were looking for per 8-3-C.

Keep working on your puzzle. You're assuming a lot of stuff now.

 

[DogFace]

These are case plays from the 2012 NFL Rules:

A.R. 8.8 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE PASS Second-and-5 on A35. A1 throws a forward pass to A2 at the A40. A2 dives for the ball and controls the ball in the air. The first thing to hit the ground is the point of the ball. a) A2 briefly loses control of the ball when it hits the ground; or b) A2 never loses control of the ball. Rulings: a) Third-and-5 on A35. Incomplete pass. b) First-and-10 on A40. A.R. 8.9 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 who dives and controls the ball while airborne at the A38, but the ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on A30. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

33 A.R. 8.10 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 sends him across the goal line and to the ground in the end zone. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on B25. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.11 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 at the A45 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 causes A2 to go to the ground where he maintains control of the ball. Ruling: First-and-10 on A45. The pass is complete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and maintained possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2 keeps his balance, gets both feet down, and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/26_2012_Official_CaseBook.pdf

The bolded section is the Dez play exactly.

Nice find.

 

[nathanlt]

He wasn't yet down at half yard line because he had not completed the catch. If the ball hadn't touched the ground, he still could have scored a TD, if the ruling was that Shields did not touch him.
Remember a running play ends as soon as a body part other than hands or feet touch the ground. A receiver has the opportunity to catch a pass, all the way until the ball touches the ground, even if he is lying on the ground himself.
The rules are completely different! Stop trying to compare them or put them together like a puzzle. That does not work.

All the way to the ground means until an elbow or knee is down. Don't imagine new concepts that aren't written. They don't apply. If you don't define the end of the contact with the ground, no player is done with the process of contacting the ground, until they leave the stadium and get in their car.


They're not supposed to hang onto the ball that long.

 

[blindzebra]

All the way to the ground means until an elbow or knee is down. Don't imagine new concepts that aren't written. They don't apply. If you don't define the end of the contact with the ground, no player is done with the process of contacting the ground, until they leave the stadium and get in their car.


They're not supposed to hang onto the ball that long.

The rule reads throughout the process of touching the ground. That means more than an initial contact that comes with down by contact. I agree that it is not clearly defined in the rule but it does go beyond a knee or elbow contacting the ground.

 

[5Stars]

Nice find.

That's why he's blind...lol

(a lyric?)

 

[Joefrl]

These are case plays from the 2012 NFL Rules:

A.R. 8.8 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE PASS Second-and-5 on A35. A1 throws a forward pass to A2 at the A40. A2 dives for the ball and controls the ball in the air. The first thing to hit the ground is the point of the ball. a) A2 briefly loses control of the ball when it hits the ground; or b) A2 never loses control of the ball. Rulings: a) Third-and-5 on A35. Incomplete pass. b) First-and-10 on A40. A.R. 8.9 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 who dives and controls the ball while airborne at the A38, but the ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on A30. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

33 A.R. 8.10 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 sends him across the goal line and to the ground in the end zone. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on B25. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.11 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 at the A45 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 causes A2 to go to the ground where he maintains control of the ball. Ruling: First-and-10 on A45. The pass is complete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and maintained possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2 keeps his balance, gets both feet down, and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/26_2012_Official_CaseBook.pdf

The bolded section is the Dez play exactly.

Uh, Dez never braced himself. That is the key part of that example. Once he started going to the ground, he went all the way to the ground!

 

[nathanlt]

The rule reads throughout the process of touching the ground. That means more than an initial contact that comes with down by contact. I agree that it is not clearly defined in the rule but it does go beyond a knee or elbow contacting the ground.

First off, I know you're not on the other side of this argument, I'm not attacking you. But the rule is so imprecise, that it leaves itself open, EVEN with the "throughout the contact with the ground" phrase. They did not specify anything that says it goes beyond a knee or elbow down, so, it doesn't mean that. I'll bet they meant it to go beyond that, but if intent is not captured in content, it DOESN'T matter what they intended it to be.

I'm not going to give the Comedian of Officiating any slack on this poorly written rule. It is too much to give into any imagined definition of "throughout contact with the ground" phrase. They wrote it terribly, and have NO COVER to justify what they did to end Dallas season.

Do you realize that was the last time Dallas touched the ball last season? Referees better be sure that they got it right before they ended Dallas playoff run. That was a CLUTCH play ruined by incompetent officiating standards. It's disgusting.

 

[nathanlt]

Uh, Dez never braced himself. That is the key part of that example. Once he started going to the ground, he went all the way to the ground!

That's how I know you are wrong. You're not WATCHING the play. He braced himself with his right arm and elbow. If you can't see that, it's time to re-check your prescription.

 

[Joefrl]

All the way to the ground means until an elbow or knee is down. Don't imagine new concepts that aren't written. They don't apply. If you don't define the end of the contact with the ground, no player is done with the process of contacting the ground, until they leave the stadium and get in their car.


They're not supposed to hang onto the ball that long.

You are done with the process of contacting the ground when you are no longer falling. If you are still falling you are not done yet. The instant you start picking yourself up (or just lying there is good enough), is when you are done falling.
If you have THROUGHOUT my bottle of water to convince me it was a catch, That means you have until my bottle is empty and there is nothing left. You have until I have sipped my last sip, not just until I was down to my last glass. THROUGHOUT the game means until the game is over, not just until the 2:00 warning. THROUGHOUT the process of contacting the ground means YOU HAVE TO FINISH FALLING!

 

[Joefrl]

First off, I know you're not on the other side of this argument, I'm not attacking you. But the rule is so imprecise, that it leaves itself open, EVEN with the "throughout the contact with the ground" phrase. They did not specify anything that says it goes beyond a knee or elbow down, so, it doesn't mean that. I'll bet they meant it to go beyond that, but if intent is not captured in content, it DOESN'T matter what they intended it to be.

I'm not going to give the Comedian of Officiating any slack on this poorly written rule. It is too much to give into any imagined definition of "throughout contact with the ground" phrase. They wrote it terribly, and have NO COVER to justify what they did to end Dallas season.

Do you realize that was the last time Dallas touched the ball last season? Referees better be sure that they got it right before they ended Dallas playoff run. That was a CLUTCH play ruined by incompetent officiating standards. It's disgusting.

Throughout the process of contacting the ground means EVERYTHING has to hit the ground, not just a knee or an elbow, EVERYTHING.
It is a terribly written phrase, there are better ways to put it, but if you understand English, you should have no problem understanding the phrase.

It was one of many, many calls in sports, that really could have gone either way. The real unfortunate part was that instant replay should have stayed out of it. Nobody can tell me there was indisputable evidence either way. Reminds me of the "Replay Game" a long time ago when instant replay was only in it's 2nd year maybe. That was another one that instant replay really had no business reversing, but unfortunately again the Packers reaped the rewards. Ultimately the call was correct, I will admit. How they got to the right call, was not right.

 

[Joefrl]

That's how I know you are wrong. You're not WATCHING the play. He braced himself with his right arm and elbow. If you can't see that, it's time to re-check your prescription.

There is no point in me going back and looking again. ""Bracing" oneself befuddles me more than "Throughout the process of contacting the ground" befuddles you. I would have no idea what to look for. How do you "brace" yourself?
If you watch the path of the ball, it goes from it's highest point were Dez first controls it, all the way down to touching the ground. At no point does it ever start going back up. Again if they mean stopping the fall, that didn't happen.

 

[Joefrl]

There is no point in me going back and looking again. ""Bracing" oneself befuddles me more than "Throughout the process of contacting the ground" befuddles you. I would have no idea what to look for. How do you "brace" yourself?
If you watch the path of the ball, it goes from it's highest point were Dez first controls it, all the way down to touching the ground. At no point does it ever start going back up. Again if they mean stopping the fall, that didn't happen.

OK, I looked at it again, The ball is moving downward all the way from control to the ball hitting the ground. I see no time when he stops his fall. He does appear to lunge though................

 

[Joefrl]

That's how I know you are wrong. You're not WATCHING the play. He braced himself with his right arm and elbow. If you can't see that, it's time to re-check your prescription.

OK, I looked at it again, The ball is moving downward all the way from control of the ball to the ball hitting the ground. I see no time when he stops his fall. Bracing? He does appear to lunge though................

 

[Joefrl]

Keep working on your puzzle. You're assuming a lot of stuff now.

Assuming, no............Logic and common sense, yes!

 

[nathanlt]

You are done with the process of contacting the ground when you are no longer falling. If you are still falling you are not done yet. The instant you start picking yourself up (or just lying there is good enough), is when you are done falling. <<< THIS IS SIMPLY YOUR IMAGINATION, NOT THE ACTUAL MEANING OF THE WORDS.
If you have THROUGHOUT my bottle of water to convince me it was a catch, That means you have until my bottle is empty and there is nothing left. You have until I have sipped my last sip, not just until I was down to my last glass. THROUGHOUT the game means until the game is over, not just until the 2:00 warning. THROUGHOUT the process of contacting the ground means UNTIL DOWN BY CONTACT.

Imagination.

 

[nathanlt]

OK, I looked at it again, The ball is moving downward all the way from control of the ball to the ball hitting the ground. I see no time when he stops his fall. Bracing? He does appear to lunge though................

Hmmm... sounds like a football move to me. Dez certainly had enough time to make a football move, so CATCH. There's no way to successfully argue that the written language confirms overturning a catch. Peira misquoted the rule about holding it long enough to perform a football move. He claimed you actually HAD to perform a football move, which was wrong, and furthermore, NOT IN THE RULEBOOK. Don't take anyone's word for it. Read it, without the interpretation of so called experts who misquote or ignore portions of the play.

Blandino actually said, "Don't look at the steps Dez took"
Blandino actually said, "Slow motion replay distorts what actually happened"
Peiera said that Dez "needed enough time to make a football move, and DO SO"
(Last two words were Peiera's opinion, but not actually written in the rulebook)

Lot of incompetence from NFL higher-ups regarding what's in their own rulebook.

 

[Joefrl]

These are case plays from the 2012 NFL Rules:

A.R. 8.8 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE PASS Second-and-5 on A35. A1 throws a forward pass to A2 at the A40. A2 dives for the ball and controls the ball in the air. The first thing to hit the ground is the point of the ball. a) A2 briefly loses control of the ball when it hits the ground; or b) A2 never loses control of the ball. Rulings: a) Third-and-5 on A35. Incomplete pass. b) First-and-10 on A40. A.R. 8.9 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 who dives and controls the ball while airborne at the A38, but the ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on A30. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

33 A.R. 8.10 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 sends him across the goal line and to the ground in the end zone. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Second-and-10 on B25. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.11 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 at the A45 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 causes A2 to go to the ground where he maintains control of the ball. Ruling: First-and-10 on A45. The pass is complete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and maintained possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2 keeps his balance, gets both feet down, and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/26_2012_Official_CaseBook.pdf

The bolded section is the Dez play exactly.

That's not in the 2014 rules, but I bet this is in the 2012 rules, the one you skipped:
A.R. 8.9 While in midair, a receiver firmly takes hold of a pass, but loses possession of the ball when his shoulder lands on the ground with or without being contacted by an opponent.
Ruling: Incomplete pass. Receiver most hold onto the ball when he alights on the ground in order to complete the reception.

I looked it up, Alight means......to descend and settle.

Bingo! Checkmate!!