Tidbits of Interest Re Cowboys

[ABQCOWBOY]

Look at it another way. Why would Ellis really want to leave, unless he can go to a team that is close to getting to the SB. Does he really want to be traded to a team like, oh, Arizona, Buffalo, Houston......some team with no shot at the playoffs, just so he can start. I know it's a competitve nature for an athlete, but common sense usually prevails, I would hope.

With a strong off-season pick ups of FA's and another strong draft, Dallas will be picked by many to make the playoffs and be a SB contender. Does Ellis want to give that up? Could be, but we all really do not know what is really being said or what is happening.

I'll sit back and see what happens. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Older players take this approach but players who still have years don't always see it this way. If you've got 5 or 6 seasons still to go, you want to play. You also want to play in a scheme where you feel like your going to help. Teams like Buffalo, Arizona and Houston are not all that far away anymore. Houston gets there OL settled and there a pretty good team. Arizona is in the same boat. They actually have more talent then we do in may areas. Buffalo is a QB away in many peoples eyes. It's not like he would go to some team and have no shot at all. One player can make the difference in todays NFL.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Ellis got a contract extension. He agreed to it. He approved the compensation package. What is the problem? He needs to play out the contract he agreed to even if he rides the pine for the duration of his contract.

Yeah, he agreed to it under the 43 scheme. He also did the team a big favor by signing that contract. You act as if he's commiting a crime. As long as it's good for the team, that's all that counts. Well, I'm here to tell you that players are people too. You don't reward good employees by screwing them. If we can get value for Ellis, the best thing to do would be to move him. If we can't then it is what it is but there is absolutly nothing wrong with asking to be traded. He didn't change, we did.

 

[InmanRoshi]

What? This is a lot of BS. I expect more from you Rosh. The two situations are completely different.

When Ellis was up on his rookie contract, he could have signed else where for more money. This is not even a question. He, along with Jerry Jones, agreed to a much more reasonable contract. That contract was long term, very cap managable and flexible. When TO's contract was up in SF, he demanded to be the highest payed player in the NFL. He got a one year deal that gave him top 5 money. He cried about it the whole season and basically became a problem for everyone. He forced a trade and then forced the NFL to allow him to pick his team rather then honor a trade with Baltimore. When a year went buy, he again demanded more money from the team he choose to be traded to. He then basically gave Philly no choice but to suspend him. Ellis, on the other hand, has continued to play through knowing his role has been diminished, his contract is undervalued and his future for more money is almost none existant. He is asking to be traded because the scheme doesn't fit him. Not because the money isn't right. These two things could not be more different.

Ellis is being penalized because he did the right thing for the team but the wrong thing for his personal situation. Owens continues to be rewarded for being a jackass.

Not the same Rosh.

Ellis didn't test the market, so he didn't know what his market value was. He resigned in the middle of the season. Perhaps you are giving him too much credit. Maybe it was more about Ellis and his agent dramatically underestimating what the market was for him rather than such a charitable and loyal contribution to the Cowboys organization. I'm sure he and his agent's mouths dropped when they saw what Wistrom signed for.

At any rate, there isn't much difference between Ellis and TO now. Both of them are acting like drama queens to get out of their contracts and onto the market to make a bigger contract. Because Ellis is a "Good guy" instead of outright saying he wants more money he is pulling this 'Gee willickers, I would love nothing more than to be here in Dallas, but Parcells obviously doesn't want me" nonsense, when both Jerry and Parcells have stated they want him around routinely. Its passive aggressive, dishonest and subversive. I almost respect TO's approach more. He's at least honest about it. He's not playing the martyr game and making other people look like the bad guy .

 

[Nors]

Unlike Glover who we have serious Bonus $ and cap hit - we can play hardball with Ellis.

Ellis is trying to whine out of his contract and to get a Sihning Bonus/new contract elsewhere. We can deny him that by forcing him to honor his contract.....

Or try and prop him up for a trade - this option makes most sense for both parties. He basically is a backup to Canty / Spears and we need to get Ratliff on the field more too.


Fergi and a Ngata/Watson rotation at NT and this front 3 can rock!

 

[Verdict]

Yeah, he agreed to it under the 43 scheme. He also did the team a big favor by signing that contract. You act as if he's commiting a crime. As long as it's good for the team, that's all that counts. Well, I'm here to tell you that players are people too. You don't reward good employees by screwing them. If we can get value for Ellis, the best thing to do would be to move him. If we can't then it is what it is but there is absolutly nothing wrong with asking to be traded. He didn't change, we did.

Let me poke myself in the eye so I can shed a tear for him. Look..... you are trying to rewrite the contract for the player's benefit. Ellis' contract probably does not require that he play in a 4-3 defense. It is also probably not required that he play in a certain number of plays. On the other hand if he sucks the Cowboys can't recoup the signing bonus they paid him. None of the stuff you are referring to was in his contract. If it was THAT important to him, he should have negotiated for it. Same for the Cowboys.

As for trading him, I'm all for it. It might be best for both parties. On the other hand, when he signed the contract he became property of the Dallas Cowboys for the duration of his contract.

As for your "he is getting screwed" comment, how is he getting screwed? Did the Cowboys fail to write him his check? The Cowboys have lived up to their obligation under the contract by paying him.

I fully expect he will honor his contract by doing what the team instructs him to do. Ellis could refuse to work but then he would be in breach of his contract, and he would owe damages to the cowboys. The Cowboys could also ask for an injuntion preventing him from playing for another team, which might or might not happen.

It would not be the first time a team has asked for an injunction. If memory serves me Chuck Fairbanks was the subject of this type of litigation at one point in time.

 

[Verdict]

Ellis didn't test the market, so he didn't know what his market value was. He resigned in the middle of the season. Perhaps you are giving him too much credit. Maybe it was more about Ellis and his agent dramatically underestimating what the market was for him rather than such a charitable and loyal contribution to the Cowboys organization. I'm sure he and his agent's mouths dropped when they saw what Wistrom signed for.

At any rate, there isn't much difference between Ellis and TO now. Both of them are acting like drama queens to get out of their contracts and onto the market to make a bigger contract. Because Ellis is a "Good guy" instead of outright saying he wants more money he is pulling this 'Gee willickers, I would love nothing more than to be here in Dallas, but Parcells obviously doesn't want me" nonsense, when both Jerry and Parcells have stated they want him around routinely. Its passive aggressive, dishonest and subversive. I almost respect TO's approach more. He's at least honest about it. He's not playing the martyr game and making other people look like the bad guy .

If Ellis had wanted more money he should have demanded more before he signed his contract. It is funny...he did not refuse to cash his signing bonus check, did he? Didn't think so.

 

[Verdict]

Unlike Glover who we have serious Bonus $ and cap hit - we can play hardball with Ellis.

Ellis is trying to whine out of his contract and to get a Sihning Bonus/new contract elsewhere. We can deny him that by forcing him to honor his contract.....

Or try and prop him up for a trade - this option makes most sense for both parties. He basically is a backup to Canty / Spears and we need to get Ratliff on the field more too.


Fergi and a Ngata/Watson rotation at NT and this front 3 can rock!

Glover's contract makes him harder to trade off, but he might still have some value if we can get him to restructure. Ellis on the other hand is firmly under the Cowboys' thumb. We might get good value trading him. His cap friendly contract should prop up his value.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Ellis didn't test the market, so he didn't know what his market value was. He resigned in the middle of the season. Perhaps you are giving him too much credit. Maybe it was more about Ellis and his agent dramatically underestimating what the market was for him rather than such a charitable and loyal contribution to the Cowboys organization. I'm sure he and his agent's mouths dropped when they saw what Wistrom signed for.

At any rate, there isn't much difference between Ellis and TO now. Both of them are acting like drama queens to get out of their contracts and onto the market to make a bigger contract. Because Ellis is a "Good guy" instead of outright saying he wants more money he is pulling this 'Gee willickers, I would love nothing more than to be here in Dallas, but Parcells obviously doesn't want me" nonsense, when both Jerry and Parcells have stated they want him around routinely. Its passive aggressive, dishonest and subversive. I almost respect TO's approach more. He's at least honest about it. He's not playing the martyr game and making other people look like the bad guy .

I don't think so Rash. DEs who can rush the passer, even kinda good, bring big money. If you recall, the skinz were ready to snatch up anybody for big money in those days and a pass rushing DE was exactly what they needed. IN any event, it was widley speculated, at the time, that Ellis could and would get big money in FA. He elected not to do that and I don't see any reason to criticise him for that. I certainly know that he was a hero on this board when he signed for what he did. Now, he's a villan because he reads the writting on the wall. I don't blame him and I don't see him as a TO either. There is no part of what TO has done that leads me to believe they are simular in any way, other then the fact that they both play in the NFL. Well, sorta. I don't see anything wrong with Ellis asking to be traded. I think it's a mistake to not move him if we can get value for him.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Let me poke myself in the eye so I can shed a tear for him. Look..... you are trying to rewrite the contract for the player's benefit. Ellis' contract probably does not require that he play in a 4-3 defense. It is also probably not required that he play in a certain number of plays. On the other hand if he sucks the Cowboys can't recoup the signing bonus they paid him. None of the stuff you are referring to was in his contract. If it was THAT important to him, he should have negotiated for it. Same for the Cowboys.

As for trading him, I'm all for it. It might be best for both parties. On the other hand, when he signed the contract he became property of the Dallas Cowboys for the duration of his contract.

As for your "he is getting screwed" comment, how is he getting screwed? Did the Cowboys fail to write him his check? The Cowboys have lived up to their obligation under the contract by paying him.

I fully expect he will honor his contract by doing what the team instructs him to do. Ellis could refuse to work but then he would be in breach of his contract, and he would owe damages to the cowboys. The Cowboys could also ask for an injuntion preventing him from playing for another team, which might or might not happen.

It would not be the first time a team has asked for an injunction. If memory serves me Chuck Fairbanks was the subject of this type of litigation at one point in time.

There's right and then there's the right thing to do. This has nothing to do with the legal ramifications of what he signed. It has everything to do with what is the smart thing to do IMO. He was stupid to sign the contract. He should have stuck it to the team and all of us with his contract. He didn't do that and now he's going to end up paying the price but mark my words, this will get ugly if it's not resolved. It will be more headache then it's worth.

On the bright side, should you elect to poke your eye out with a stick, I will most certainly shed a tear or two for you.

 

[Ashwynn]

VELA'S STORY DOES NOT ADD UP.

1) Ellis is NOT going to be happy as a backup getting 10-15 reps as he was.

2) Why is Ellis looking to make less money to justify more playing time?

3) Fact is Ellis wants out, went more than public with that.


JJ is a salesman trying to get his stock up so we get best value for him. A 3rd rounder and he's gone. We can draft and get a situational pass rusher in draft. Kalen Thornton back as well.

point #2. If you read it says he wants to renegoiate his contract toHEDGE against less playing time. That means, restructure it so if he gets less playing time, he still gets paid. I dont know if theres a snap count or time clause in his contract, but if so that makes perfect sense. He can help his team out and secure his future the right way.

 

[Verdict]

There's right and then there's the right thing to do. This has nothing to do with the legal ramifications of what he signed. It has everything to do with what is the smart thing to do IMO. He was stupid to sign the contract. He should have stuck it to the team and all of us with his contract. He didn't do that and now he's going to end up paying the price but mark my words, this will get ugly if it's not resolved. It will be more headache then it's worth.

On the bright side, should you elect to poke your eye out with a stick, I will most certainly shed a tear or two for you.

Where did that come from?

This is no different than a bank loan. You sign on the dotted line you make your payments as agreed.

Where do you think the "do overs", "mulligans" or "king's X" are in Ellis contract? I'll give you a hint. I don't think there are any.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

[/I]

Where did that come from?

This is no different than a bank loan. You sign on the dotted line you make your payments as agreed.

Where do you think the "do overs", "mulligans" or "king's X" are in Ellis contract? I'll give you a hint. I don't think there are any.

That came from dealing with people myself. You can stick to the letter of the law but that doesn't mean it's always the right thing to do. It's about doing the right thing as opposed to what you are legally intitled to do.

Let me ask you a question, what is it that you do for a living, exactly, verdict?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

OK, well, lets say for instance you were a trial lawyer, having good success, making good money with a compensation plan that paid you for winning cases. Just a what if kinda thing. Lets say you had a personal contract in place based off the work you had done as a trail attorney. Lets say the firm was bought and subsiquently, you were reasigned as a general Attorney who's job it was to research facts for other attorneys. (No idea if this is how it works or what there called but just trying to create an example that somewhat mirrors the situation, as I see it) Lets say that because you are no longer in the court room much, it impacts your salary and you hate what your doing. In that situation, if I were the owner of a that law firm, I would certainly understand your point of view. If you came to me and shared this with me, it would be in my best interests to try and work with you. Try to help you if you wanted to move on. I mean, I know this is an over simplification of things but that's just kind of how I see it. I would have a contract with you so I would not have to release you but I don't know that it would be in the best interests of all to force you to stay.

 

[wileedog]

OK, well, lets say for instance you were a trial lawyer, having good success, making good money with a compensation plan that paid you for winning cases. Just a what if kinda thing. Lets say you had a personal contract in place based off the work you had done as a trail attorney. Lets say the firm was bought and subsiquently, you were reasigned as a general Attorney who's job it was to research facts for other attorneys. (No idea if this is how it works or what there called but just trying to create an example that somewhat mirrors the situation, as I see it) Lets say that because you are no longer in the court room much, it impacts your salary and you hate what your doing. In that situation, if I were the owner of a that law firm, I would certainly understand your point of view. If you came to me and shared this with me, it would be in my best interests to try and work with you. Try to help you if you wanted to move on. I mean, I know this is an over simplification of things but that's just kind of how I see it. I would have a contract with you so I would not have to release you but I don't know that it would be in the best interests of all to force you to stay.

That's all well and good ABQ, but if Canty breaks his leg in the first game we are going to be darn glad we "did wrong" by Ellis.

First and foremost is what's best for the team, and it might be nice to not have an injury or two wreck our season for a change because we actually have adequate back up depth.

 

[Rack]

Ellis didn't test the market, so he didn't know what his market value was. He resigned in the middle of the season. Perhaps you are giving him too much credit. Maybe it was more about Ellis and his agent dramatically underestimating what the market was for him rather than such a charitable and loyal contribution to the Cowboys organization. I'm sure he and his agent's mouths dropped when they saw what Wistrom signed for.

At any rate, there isn't much difference between Ellis and TO now. Both of them are acting like drama queens to get out of their contracts and onto the market to make a bigger contract. Because Ellis is a "Good guy" instead of outright saying he wants more money he is pulling this 'Gee willickers, I would love nothing more than to be here in Dallas, but Parcells obviously doesn't want me" nonsense, when both Jerry and Parcells have stated they want him around routinely. Its passive aggressive, dishonest and subversive. I almost respect TO's approach more. He's at least honest about it. He's not playing the martyr game and making other people look like the bad guy .

Sorry Rosh, but you're way off. Ellis has NEVER complained about his money. He's been complaining about PLAYING TIME. He wants to PLAY more snaps. I don't see how you can see any similiarities between the two.

Ellis has said he doesn't think he'd be here cuz of his contract and the amount of snaps he was getting at the end of the year. How does that sound like a guy wanting more money? If anything, he thinks he won't be here cuz he's making too much money for the amount of snaps he's getting.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's all well and good ABQ, but if Canty breaks his leg in the first game we are going to be darn glad we "did wrong" by Ellis.

First and foremost is what's best for the team, and it might be nice to not have an injury or two wreck our season for a change because we actually have adequate back up depth.

Perhaps but I believe that we could get a 2nd or 3rd for Ellis. I also believe that we could sign a 34 DE to replace Ellis much cheaper then we could keep Ellis on the bench. I mean, basically what your looking for is an undersized 3 technique DT. Come draft time, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting 5 or 6 of these type of players. Lastly, I think it does impact you in FA. What I'm saying here is that players watch to see how franchises treat players. I remember in the 80s and early 90s, players wanted to sign with SF because of how that franchise was preceived. Teams and players know who is marketable. Nobody is going to get a player like Ellis in the third round, first year out. All I'm saying is that if we can move him and get value, we should. It gets us younger, it helps the cap, it helps our image with players and it helps Ellis personally. One good turn sort of thing. I'm not saying give him away. I'm saying if we can get value. Ellis strikes me as a stand up guy. If the value in a trade were not there, then I think he would see that and possibly be at more peace with this whole thing. However, if the trade value were there, this is the kind of thing that would stick in a players craw for some time. To me, the smart thing to do would be to give his agent the green light to find a deal and see what is out there. You always have the right to nix any trade if the value is not there. That way, if there's a deal to be had, then get your value. If not, then the player and the agent have no complaint and the perception of the organization is intact. To me, that makes the most sense.

 

[Rack]

Wow reading over all these posts, I don't think either "party" is right on this one.


Ellis has never complained about his money. He's only complained about his role on the team and his snaps. So the comparison to TO is completely idiotic.


At the same time, it would be dumb to get rid of Ellis. He's valuable to the team. He can play in the 3-4 (not as well as he does in the 4-3 but he CAN play in it) and he's valuable to our pass rush (although nothing spectacular).


I don't think Ellis wants more money. If we were still in a 4-3 and he were getting his normal 900 snaps a game we wouldn't be hearing a peep out of him. Now, if he had the opportunity to make more money I don't think he'd be upset about it, but his frustrations stem from his decrease in snaps, not his pay check.

 

[neosapien23]

It's because of Elliss's reasonable contract that I think we can get something in return. Alot of people are hoping to get a 3rd, but I think Dallas will get a 2nd round pick for him. He did have 8 sacks in the 3-4. I think a team like Denver, Kansas City, somebody will give up a 2nd. Unlike Glover and Allen, Ellis will not be cut because of a high salary. If he is not traded, he will be a Cowboy next year.

 

[Rack]

Larry Allen won't be cut either.

 

[neosapien23]

Larry Allen won't be cut either.

If he doesn't take a pay cut he will.