Trading up (early) has few success stories

TheMarathonContinues

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There is only one team since 2010 that can say they have drafted 4 Pro Bowlers in the 1st round. Claiborne stops that from being 5. That goes to show how much for a crap shoot the draft is and to the Cowboys credit, they draft better in the 1st round probably better than any other team. Especially factoring in they aren't a perennial top 5 draft pick team like the Raiders or Browns. You have to go back to 2006 to see us not draft a Pro Bowler in the 1st round.

I wouldn't write off Claiborne just yet. He hit rock bottom this year. From his play to his injury. I think the guy has some fight in him.
 

jazzcat22

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Hindsight is 20/20 but this defense needs bodies. I think Jerry gets impatient and with him having to be talked down from Johnny Football, he was anxious to move up and get Demarcus Lawrence. The Claiborne trade looks worse because Jerry hyped him as "highest grade since Deion" and stated that he was graded higher than his LSU teammate Patrick Peterson.

Claiborne added nothing to the defense and Lawrence has yet to offer much. I'm just not a fan of moving two high picks (3rd round or higher) for one player. I know we traded a 3rd to move up some and get Dez but we also got a 4th back. Dez was a spcial talent who had no business being available with the 24th pick.

I've said it before these two drafts and I'll say it again now, give me the 4 bodies.

2012 Draft
Mo Claiborne 2014 stats - 7 tackles, 2 passes defended, 1 INT

Who it would have been (according to Stephen Jones):
Michael Brockers 2014 stats - 28 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pass defended
Bobby Wagner 2014 stats - 94 tackles, 2 sacks, 2 passes defended

2014 Draft
Demarcus Lawrence 2014 stats - 8 tackles

Who it could have been (according to Chris in Arizona):
Kony Ealy 2014 stats - 11 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Will Sutton 2014 stats - 22 tackles, 2 passed defended

We'd have 3/4th of our D Line set for the foreseeable future and a beast linebacker in Wagner.

I know defenders of all things Jerry will say all teams can say this and they'd be right. I just hope this Front Office has learned from these two recent lessons as the team continues to attempt to improve this defense,

Comparing players with full seasons as To players missing most the season. Well, ok
Not good examples imo
 

yimyammer

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That was fast, thx! Sounds like I just need to keep reading because that article quotes the book I mentioned as the source.

Damn, they gave up a hell of a lot imo

The cost of moving from No. 27 to No. 6 was sending that No. 27 pick, along with second- and fourth-round choices this year and first and fourth-round picks in 2012 to Cleveland.

In the era of salary cap and parity, I think you need to stockpile picks not reduce them, drafting is too much of an inexact science for this approach, 5 picks used on one player is far too much unless its a QB like Luck, Elway, etc
 

TheMarathonContinues

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1 player away? They really thought that? The Falcons haven't had a defense for 5+ years now.

Honestly I cant remember the last time ATL's defense was good.

I don't think they thought they were a player away they simply thought they could afford to give up draft picks for Julio. Its hard to argue against them. 13-3? They, thought they could afford to do it. I can't fault them much. What if they screw up their draft and get NO impact players? It goes back to you having faith in your scouts and the draft. Its called a lottery for a reason. Chances are you going to draft a flop.

I think Falcons thought their defense was simply good enough.

Cowboys made the same mistake when they traded for Roy Williams. Its been proven that when you trade so much it does hurt your team because it sets your team back in youth. So if you make that move you better hope your team's window is short and that there actually is a window open. Falcons put too much stock into Matt Ryan.

Falcons true downfall is that they havent' had a running back since Jamal Anderson.
 

yimyammer

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I wouldn't write off Claiborne just yet. He hit rock bottom this year. From his play to his injury. I think the guy has some fight in him.

gawd I hope so, it would be such a boost to the defense if he came around and even excelled
 

TheMarathonContinues

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Hindsight is 20/20 but this defense needs bodies. I think Jerry gets impatient and with him having to be talked down from Johnny Football, he was anxious to move up and get Demarcus Lawrence. The Claiborne trade looks worse because Jerry hyped him as "highest grade since Deion" and stated that he was graded higher than his LSU teammate Patrick Peterson.

Claiborne added nothing to the defense and Lawrence has yet to offer much. I'm just not a fan of moving two high picks (3rd round or higher) for one player. I know we traded a 3rd to move up some and get Dez but we also got a 4th back. Dez was a spcial talent who had no business being available with the 24th pick.

I've said it before these two drafts and I'll say it again now, give me the 4 bodies.

2012 Draft
Mo Claiborne 2014 stats - 7 tackles, 2 passes defended, 1 INT

Who it would have been (according to Stephen Jones):
Michael Brockers 2014 stats - 28 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pass defended
Bobby Wagner 2014 stats - 94 tackles, 2 sacks, 2 passes defended

2014 Draft
Demarcus Lawrence 2014 stats - 8 tackles

Who it could have been (according to Chris in Arizona):
Kony Ealy 2014 stats - 11 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Will Sutton 2014 stats - 22 tackles, 2 passed defended

We'd have 3/4th of our D Line set for the foreseeable future and a beast linebacker in Wagner.

I know defenders of all things Jerry will say all teams can say this and they'd be right. I just hope this Front Office has learned from these two recent lessons as the team continues to attempt to improve this defense,

We can sit here and knock Jerry and the Cowboys all we want for the Claiborne pick but the fact remains our secondary, not our offensive line or linebacking core was the worst in the league. They signed Brandon Carr and drafted Claiborne to change that. Mike Jenkins, Brandon Carr, Morris Claiborne and Orlando Scandrick.....hard to argue against that. It didn't work out and hasn't yet. Also factor in our defensive line was suppose to be Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff, Anthony Spencer and Jason Hatcher. When Spencer got hurt for the season and Ratliff went Jeremiah on us that set this defense and the defensive line back some ways.

I stand by if you think you have a guy you go and get him. You can't get caught up into what ifs. What ifs is why we traded down in 2009 to collect a bunch of guys and none of them are in the league. Trading down is how we ended up with Julius Jones and not Stephen Jackson.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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gawd I hope so, it would be such a boost to the defense if he came around and even excelled

Yeah this defense needs it. We NEED Claiborne to be solid. Cornerback in this league is tough. Look at Patrick Peterson this year. Everyone was on him and crowning him this great corner and he's been brought back down to earth. Claiborne has to step it up. He first off, needs a solid training camp injury free.

This defense is already looking different if you can get a semi-healthy Sean Lee(I know, I know he'll never be healthy) and a healthy Claiborne with a chance to develop.
 

gimmesix

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Revis didn't yield that in a trade because you also have to turn around and pay him big money.

Corners are worth first rounders. Virtually every organization has e taken one high.

Somehow I don't believe every organization is wrong and just Risen is right.

And few would be complaining about the trade if Claiborne played anywhere near the level of Revis. Having the "Deion Sanders" player Dallas envisioned when it made the trade would have impacted this defense's play.

It's easy to bash a trade up when it fails, or a trade down when it fails, or staying put when it fails. That doesn't make any of the choices any less viable.
 

KingintheNorth

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Having the "Deion Sanders" player Dallas envisioned when it made the trade would have impacted this defense's play.

Except that Claiborne isn't that player, at all. A huge miss. If guys want to praise Jerry and the Front Office for all of the hits, then they have to own the misses.

For me, it's only a problem if we don't learn from it. I'd like to think that we will never again trade up in the top 10 for a player we never sat down with and actually spoke to.
 

Bungarian

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Doing a little bit of research (certainly not exhaustive), I've yet to see a team have a true success story where a franchise player that they traded up into the top 5 or 10 has catapulted them into the super bowl. The results are almost always the opposite.

The 2012 trade up for Morris Claiborne certainly set this team back. With our original pick we could have drafted Michael Brockers, Bruce Irvin, Quinton Coples, Dre Kirkpatrick and with the 45th pick in the draft we could have gotten Alshon Jeffery, Bobby Wagner, Peter Konz, Vinny Curry. The names aren't so important as this isn't an exercise in hindsight, rather a general lesson about value.

We're going to have a late first round draft pick, but we can get a valuable player there. It might not be in the position we most have a need for (Defensive End), but it could be a very valuable player at any position on this team. By not reaching we can make the best of this player.

It's okay to move up a couple spots to get a guy that you want and another team is likely to draft, but trading up into the top 5 and top 10 looks like a history of disaster.

We put all our eggs into Morris Claiborne thinking he was the next Revis, and he didn't even turn out to be a starting quality cornerback. Trading up is entirely too dangerous (more so at some positions than others).

When Romo's time is done, we might have ourselves a roster that would afford us to make a trade up for a QB early in the draft. On that point also let me reiterate that drafting a QB at all at this point would take away from this team's ability to win a super bowl.

You provide no research or data at all. Show some other examples.
 

gimmesix

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Except that Claiborne isn't that player, at all. A huge miss. If guys want to praise Jerry and the Front Office for all of the hits, then they have to own the misses.

For me, it's only a problem if we don't learn from it. I'd like to think that we will never again trade up in the top 10 for a player we never sat down with and actually spoke to.

It would have been interesting to see where other teams valued Claiborne. If most teams would have taken him at the point that Dallas did, then I can't blame Dallas for seeing the same value. If not, then whoever told Jerry that he should trade up and take him failed to do his due diligence and needed to be held accountable for it.

Claiborne is a huge miss, but it's likely that he would have been a top 10 huge miss for someone. We were just the unlucky victims ... as I'm sure we'll be again at some point.

Dallas does deserve credit for its hits and blame for its misses, but sometimes players just don't live up to the ability they showed in college ... and sometimes they turn out to be much better than that ability level.
 

AsthmaField

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I actually suggested that trades like the one we made for Bryant are in fact good trades that. It's okay to jump up a few spots in order to get the guy that you want. And that works out more often.

The Dez trade did work out but that has more to do with his off the field problems not sabotaging his career. He was clearly a top 5 talent in the draft that fell because of many teams feeling like he was a knucklehead. Dallas talked a lot to the young man and felt like he wouldn't be a big off the field problem so they jumped Baltimore to secure him. Very smart, as it turns out. Baltimore was rumored to be very upset about losing him although publicly they say he wasn't their target. Nobody likes to look like they got outsmarted in the draft. It happens to everybody though.

As far as trades in the second half of the first round goes, the trade up to get Emmitt Smith worked out pretty well. They moved up from 21 (Might have been 22) to 17 in a trade with Pittsburgh to get him. He had top 5 talent as well but his slow 40 times caused him to fall.
 

xwalker

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I mean the research I would posit isn't worth posting. Just look at the last decade or so of drafts, and look at the top 10 draft picks and look at the trades made to enter into this. If you can't take this on face value, you're more than welcome to look them up as well.

It's your topic. They Cowboys traded up to draft Russell Maryland #1 overall and he has 3 Super Bowl rings.
 

AsthmaField

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We traded up for Dorsett, Emmitt, and Dez

Good call on the Dorsett trade. That was an early trade that did work out for the team. Those late 70's Cowboy teams really were just 1 guy away probably and Dorsett put them over the top.

Had it not been for a Pittsburgh team that was one for the ages, Dallas would have had another super bowl or two.
 

AsthmaField

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It's your topic. They Cowboys traded up to draft Russell Maryland #1 overall and he has 3 Super Bowl rings.

But Maryland wasn't worth that top overall pick. Dallas had thought that Rocket Ismail would be there but were forced to take Maryland by default when nobody would take trade up to the first pick.

He did have 3 super bowl rings, but that didn't make the trade up to the top spot a smart trade. Maryland certainly didn't put those early 90's Cowboys over the top. He was just part of an 8 man rotation that wore teams out as Emmitt and the OL played keep away with time of possession.
 

Galian Beast

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It's your topic. They Cowboys traded up to draft Russell Maryland #1 overall and he has 3 Super Bowl rings.

Now you're confusing causation and correlation.

Russell Maryland made it to one pro bowl, and was off the team in 1996 (after being drafted in 1991).

Certainly wasn't an example of a great trade for the Cowboys, and on top of it was only possible because of the Walker trade in the first place.
 

Galian Beast

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The Dez trade did work out but that has more to do with his off the field problems not sabotaging his career. He was clearly a top 5 talent in the draft that fell because of many teams feeling like he was a knucklehead. Dallas talked a lot to the young man and felt like he wouldn't be a big off the field problem so they jumped Baltimore to secure him. Very smart, as it turns out. Baltimore was rumored to be very upset about losing him although publicly they say he wasn't their target. Nobody likes to look like they got outsmarted in the draft. It happens to everybody though.

As far as trades in the second half of the first round goes, the trade up to get Emmitt Smith worked out pretty well. They moved up from 21 (Might have been 22) to 17 in a trade with Pittsburgh to get him. He had top 5 talent as well but his slow 40 times caused him to fall.

You should re-read the OP and then come back.

Again, I didn't say you couldn't trade up, I said trading up into the top 5 and top 10 weren't generally worth it.

Talking about trading up for Dez or Smith after I said, some trade ups are smart, reveals a lack of reading comprehension on your part.
 

Galian Beast

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You provide no research or data at all. Show some other examples.

Again, all you have to do is look at the top 10 drafted players over the last decade or so and see which teams traded up to make these picks.

If you think you have an example that suggests otherwise, go ahead, otherwise either

a) Read the drafts yourself, they're easily accessible

or

b) Take my word for it.

But I'm not going to post a lot of draft results just because you're too lazy to read them yourself.
 
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