CFZ Two different philosophies to build an NFL championship roster

[buybuydandavis]

Hurts was a “cheap quarterback”…… he might not be cheap very long……is he elite enough to carry their franchise for years to come?

with a cheap quarterback a team may only have 1 shot at a SB but with an elite quarterback he will cover up many weaknesses and keep his team relevant…….I dont speak in absolutes; just my opinion

It's not just Hurts' play.

Hurts + Running QB + 40 mil for other players >? Elite QB on 2+ contract + QB draft pick

That's the comparison with a QB draft pick who can run. And that 40mil is cumulative cap hit year after year that he starts. You can put your team in good cap shape to make a push if you're close.

 

[buybuydandavis]

Yeah, looking back, one wishes that Romo had gotten his job back as soon as he was healthy. They kept Dak in because they were winning with him, but they probably would have done better in the playoffs with Romo under center. It's just really hard to pull a quarterback when you're winning with him.

To me it always stank of Garrett angling to monkey bar to the next QB to keep his career in Dallas alive.

Always seemed eventual that Garrett would be dumped when they moved on from Tony and were *looking* for a new QB.

But if they already *had* the new QB that was doing well under Garrett? Well, then you wouldn't want to change things up on the new QB, now would you?

Garrett couldn't get a new HC job, then couldn't stick in the league more than 2 years after Jerry cut finally him loose. So much for Boy Genius I, Jerry's coaching legacy to the Cowboys.

It's really incredible how many careers Tony was carrying. Escobar couldn't stay employed in semi pro ball.

 

[Reid1boys]

That was the example provided by Bob, I was just commenting on that. Any other examples come to mind?

Not a one...im still waiting on Bob to give me one.... just one

 

[Diehardblues]

championship rosters are a mirage...................... nobody has a "championship roster" by itself. What does that even mean? Just a team that wins a championship has a championship roster? Well, I guess only 1 out of the 32 has a championship roster then.

Good question .

I’d define a championship roster as one that has contended for a championship.

Which would mean making it to a championship game.

 

[Diehardblues]

Baltimore tried to lock up Lamar LAST year and couldnt do it. Lamar wants huge money and he wants it guaranteed just like Watson got... thats the only reason they have not signed Lamar. Trust me, they aint taking your second "Philosophy."

And Kirk Cousins is some kind of championship qb? Washington decided Cousins wasnt the man to take them to a title and let him walk,.... how has using your second philosophy worked out for Washington?

Since you have said there are two ways to build a championship roster, Im still waiting for you to give me a single example of a team that has been doing it with any success.... that is your second philosophy . I mean, if it is one of the ways teams are building their rosters, as you say, you have to have at least a couple examples of this, no?

I guess we need to establish or better define championship winning rosters to championship caliber rosters?

There have been several championship caliber teams without Elite QB’s in recent years. We can begin with 2 this year in Phil and SF.

Going back a few years we could say a couple championship teams without an Elite QB like Baltimore and NY.

 

[Diehardblues]

Ive said this for years.... teams rosters can be placed into a bell shaped curve. The vast majority... lets say 24 of the 32 teams fall in the general range.. then you have 6 remaining that can go on either side of the curve. The Chiefs will ALWAYS be in that curve and as long as that is the case, Mahomes, by his sheer greatness will slide that entire roster over to the right making them a top 4 team every year as long as he is still the guy we are seeing today. Chris jones can be replaced, just like most guys can be replaced. They have a great TE in Kelce, but other than that, they have a bunch of solid NFL type players that you can find every year in the draft. By the way, the WR they traded for from the Giants will explode next year.

We do it in Dallas over and over and over again, we just dont have Mahomes. If we had Mahomes we would be winning SB as well. Our roster is probably better than the chiefs, except for one position.

Mahomes is one of those rare commodity’s. He simply dismisses or makes exceptions to the rule of most everything with his raw abilities. But he still needs a good enough team around him as he isn’t winning it every year but he will be contending for it every year. That is the definition of championship caliber IMO.

And there’s only a handful of these QB’s. Unfortunately there’s not enough to go around. I certainly wouldn’t argue against if we had a Mahomes, Burrows , Allen or Rodgers type on our roster might have been enough to make or win a championship. That’s definitely a credible argument. They make all of those teams championship caliber.

What is so mystifying here is that if we can establish this criteria then it makes our situation even more questionable. Not only have we not found this caliber of QB this era we haven’t even attempted to draft one.

 

[Diehardblues]

if Hurts plays at or near the level he played this year, we all know what will happen... he will be signed. 100%, not a chance in hell they let him walk... NONE, zip, nada... so that throws the entire original post in the toilet. im still waiting for an example of single team that has let an outstanding young qb walk when their rookie deal expired... hell, I bet the OP cant give me one example in the history of the league where that has happened.

Good point. Very few examples. Kapernick with SF comes to mind not resigned .

Of course Rams traded Goff who took them to a SB not resigning him.

If you have a less than Elite QB who takes you to at least championship appearances you’d normally resign him. And in most cases even just being a playoff team is prob enough .

But I totally agree, Phil is going to resign Hurts and over pay him as well. Time will tell if that works out long term.

 

[Diehardblues]

Most owners would probably say over paying less than Elite QB’s has worked out.

It might not have delivered championships but it provided the core to at least attempt to build around while staying competitive enough to be in playoffs.

Remember you can’t advance in the playoffs unless you make it. And consistently making the playoffs and or contending for them most owners would probably argue was worth the investments.

The divide with too many fans is they only measure success by winning championships.

 

[Diehardblues]

I’m sure Jethro and Son see overpaying or paying Market Price for Prescott as a success.

He has provided them enough to attempt to build around. And when healthy has provided this to be a consistent playoff caliber contender.

That is the initial goal in the NFL. Remember about half the league is still looking for that less than Elite QB they can over pay and build around to become a playoff contender.

 

[Diehardblues]

Fans in this era place far too much importance on winning championships as the only measurement of great QB’s. The Super or Bust mentality is flawed .

Back in the day we saw that the Marino’s, Fouts, Tarkenton, Fouts and Kelly’s to name a few were great without winning championships.

There were many others. And we had some very good QB’s who didn’t win championships like Merideth, Morton and White.

I’m not sure where fans this era or generation got off track on this mentality. Maybe it’s been media influenced .

 

[zeke21]

Yeah, looking back, one wishes that Romo had gotten his job back as soon as he was healthy. They kept Dak in because they were winning with him, but they probably would have done better in the playoffs with Romo under center. It's just really hard to pull a quarterback when you're winning with him.

Plenty of us were wishing it at the time too.. in fact this forum had an entire board dedicated to it. It was one of the worst decisions in the history of the franchise and possibly the league.

I have no doubt, zero doubt, that Romo would have got us to the championship game and possibly SB in 2016. He was primed, the team was primed. THAT was our moment. And we blew it because Clapper liked the fact that Dak was more controllable.. and the Jones loved the idea of a 'fairy tale' story of picking 'their guy' from the clouds...

7 years on and I'm still just as mad.. another whole generation without success because our idiot coach and stupid FO couldn't see what was in front of them. I said then, and I'll say now, Dak will never ever win anything of note. He is an inaccurate passer, limited ability to read defences, panics under pressure, needs an eternity of a completely clean pocket to get a pass away, has an undeserved ego and needs his receivers to either by 5 yards open or make highlight reel contortion catches routinely. You can go back and read our posts from 2016.. it has not changed. He is the same average QB now as he was then.

It wasn't hard to 'pull' a rookie QB.. Romo was healthy with 5-6 weeks left in the schedule.. plenty of time to shake the rust and see how he was throwing. He wasn't even allowed to COMPETE for his job in training FFS FFS. His last drive against the Eagles was pure poetry.. a knife through butter.. and they still didn't hesitate to put the rookie in. Even when he was stinking it up against GB.. they didn't even put Romo in for a series. It was sheer stupidity and cost this team silverware.

Never forgive and never forget.

 

[CowboyRoy]

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/fo...dvantage-with-rookie-contract-qbs-1234700643/
A lot from this article.
Btw, 8 of the 14 teams that made the playoffs had a QB on a rookie deal including 3 of 4 teams in the conference championship games.

My point is that it’s circumstance, not strategy.

 

[CowboyRoy]

What a horrible take. During that 4 year period when the Cowboys won the SuperBowl, Aikman's QB rating was: 92- 3rd, 93 -2nd, 94 - 6th, 95 - 3rd. He was an elite QB. He was also most likely the difference in winning and losing those superbowls if you were to compare the teams position by position.

you can hand the ball off and throw a few passes and have high qb rating. Aikman was no way elite. he was largely a bus driver that handed the ball off in that offense. And he was great at it.

 

[Diehardblues]

you can hand the ball off and throw a few passes and have high qb rating. Aikman was no way elite. he was largely a bus driver that handed the ball off in that offense. And he was great at it.

While Aikmans personal numbers certainly weren’t enough to be considered Elite , he arguably had Elite talent . What a great arm. And why he was the overall 1st round pick.

No doubt without being surrounded by a championship caliber team he wouldn’t have had as much success and landed in HOF, I’m not sure I’d argue he was a Bus Driver.

Troy often played his best on the biggest stages and his abilities and contributions were much more than average which I think most Bus Drivers would be defined.

Not to mention his tremendous leadership. I’m not sure we could have just placed any QB in there and have had the same level of success.

 

[Diehardblues]

My point is that it’s circumstance, not strategy.

I’d have to agree with this. Not sure you can really strategize winning on a Rookie QB’s contract. That’s more by chance which would fall under circumstances .

Unless that team has a history of building championship caliber teams and simply churning their QB’s thru the draft. Then that would be more of a strategy than circumstance.

Which was one of Bobs examples but we really haven’t had any franchises which have done that consistently by strategy , more by chance or circumstance as you have suggested.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Exactly
I’ll take Aikman over any Cowboys QB not named Roger

Agreed but that has no bearing on the fact he was never elite. Never. In his day he was never elite. That is a fact. I think he made one pro bowl.

 

[CowboyRoy]

While Aikmans personal numbers certainly weren’t enough to be considered Elite , he arguably had Elite talent . What a great arm. And why he was the overall 1st round pick.

No doubt without being surrounded by a championship caliber team he wouldn’t have had as much success and landed in HOF, I’m not sure I’d argue he was a Bus Driver.

Troy often played his best on the biggest stages and his abilities and contributions were much more than average which I think most Bus Drivers would be defined.

Not to mention his tremendous leadership. I’m not sure we could have just placed any QB in there and have had the same level of success.

I agree. But what they asked him todo was bus drive. Ironically on the few occasions the got way down and had to make big comebacks or score quickly he was not at his best.
the dep ball was also not a strength. He was an immobile statue that hung in tough.
he was never elite.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I’d have to agree with this. Not sure you can really strategize winning on a Rookie QB’s contract. That’s more by chance which would fall under circumstances .

Unless that team has a history of building championship caliber teams and simply churning their QB’s thru the draft. Then that would be more of a strategy than circumstance.

Which was one of Bobs examples but we really haven’t had any franchises which have done that consistently by strategy , more by chance or circumstance as you have suggested.

I honestly think it would be a great strategy. To be considered QB university so to speak. Draft QBs often and develop them. focus on a championship defense and oline. And at the end of rookie contracts trade quality qbs and get huge draft compensation and keep the process rolling. In the event you get a mahomes or elite type make an extended run at it.

The great D and great oline will make all the qbs have more success and look better than they are thus upping the value of the young qbs for trade.

I would do the same thing with RBs. Not draft them high but get young ones in the draft, run them behind a great oline and trade them away before the big payday. the great oline would again make them look better than they are for trade.

Denver did a similar thing for a while with rbs around the Terrell Davis time with backs and trading them.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

Plenty of us were wishing it at the time too.. in fact this forum had an entire board dedicated to it. It was one of the worst decisions in the history of the franchise and possibly the league.

I have no doubt, zero doubt, that Romo would have got us to the championship game and possibly SB in 2016. He was primed, the team was primed. THAT was our moment. And we blew it because Clapper liked the fact that Dak was more controllable.. and the Jones loved the idea of a 'fairy tale' story of picking 'their guy' from the clouds...

7 years on and I'm still just as mad.. another whole generation without success because our idiot coach and stupid FO couldn't see what was in front of them. I said then, and I'll say now, Dak will never ever win anything of note. He is an inaccurate passer, limited ability to read defences, panics under pressure, needs an eternity of a completely clean pocket to get a pass away, has an undeserved ego and needs his receivers to either by 5 yards open or make highlight reel contortion catches routinely. You can go back and read our posts from 2016.. it has not changed. He is the same average QB now as he was then.

It wasn't hard to 'pull' a rookie QB.. Romo was healthy with 5-6 weeks left in the schedule.. plenty of time to shake the rust and see how he was throwing. He wasn't even allowed to COMPETE for his job in training FFS FFS. His last drive against the Eagles was pure poetry.. a knife through butter.. and they still didn't hesitate to put the rookie in. Even when he was stinking it up against GB.. they didn't even put Romo in for a series. It was sheer stupidity and cost this team silverware.

Never forgive and never forget.

There was a risk for Garrett if he had given Romo his job back. If Romo had come in and stunk up the place, everyone would be saying, "Garrett, you idiot, you had a quarterback whom you were winning with." I think Garrett believed at the time that Dak was the team's best chance to do well in the playoffs. You and I know that that's not true. They would have been better off with Romo, and at least now you knew you had a guy who can come in and do well if Romo got hurt. Dak was playing a zillion times better than Brandon Weeden or Matt Cassel. But, yeah, Romo proved if he had the support of a great running game, he could take the team far. In '14, he was hozed by that stupid catch rule. Dez's catch would have been called a catch in any year prior to whenever they dreamed up that stupid rule. Romo was an inch away from going to the NFC Championship game, and he did that with an average (at best) defense. In 2016, we had Zeke in his prime, who was even better than DeMarco Murray. I'm with you. I think Romo would have lead his team to at least the NFC Championship in '16 if they had had the wisdom to give him his starting job back. I remember Footsdaking made a Youtube video at the time saying to give it back to Tony.

Garrett couldn't see what was right in front of him. He couldn't be like, "Cool, I've got a a way better backup whom I can actually win with, and now my starter is healthy. We'll put the starter back in who knows this offense way better and is our best QB." That conclusion just wasn't possible with Garrett brain cells. He was like, "Gotta stick with the guy we're winning games with."

 

[shabazz]

The Bengals are a very young team, they have more than just Burrow who are comming for paychecks very soon...Odds are better he doesnt make it back to the SB than the odds he does once everyone gets thier money.

and the main reason they haven’t won a SB is because of Mr Mahomes twice and Stafford ……elite qbs in big games