Vela: Maybe Ellis is right?

[DallasEast]

Rumor has it Jerry has agreed to buy Grag Ellis a bag of chips because Greg thinks he's all that. Jerry thinks the compensation is equitable considering Ellis's sack production over 9 years.

That deal's just cheesy, man!​

 

[Big Dakota]

I thought Quincy was gonna be a good QB and Greg Ellis was gonna be a sack artist:bang2:

 

[Big Dakota]

That deal's just cheesy, man!​

kinda looks like Greg

 

[Ben_n_austin]

A what?

Do you mean Reductio ad absurdum?

Typo. And it's a basic philosophical term. You were saying that he would make a recovery, but he wouldn't make a recovery. Basically, that's what it means. An absolute contradiction. Which doesn't serve you, or your argument well.

When you try to use fancy words and obscure phrases from a dead language to attempt to appear intellectual, try to look at the keyboard when you type. It spoils the effect if you miss a key stroke. Just a little bit of handy advice.

I'll hire a personal editor by noon tomorrow.

Back to the argument, you really try to erect straw men to thrash, but I think it is pretty easy to see through if you have an ounce of intellect.

Not at all, I just think it's funny that most people who are whinning and crying over Greg think that he could help the team out. He's just making a point to say, "hey, I'm switching positions for you and you said you'd take care of me". All there needs to be is a slight compromise. I don't think he's asking them to break the bank.

I will reiterate. My stance of "not expecting much" from him and not being "effective" has nothing to do with "recovery".

And allow me to reiterate, this statement is pure speculation. Your assumption holds no truth at the present moment. He was effective last year. And if he recovers this year, why would he not be effective?

He will probably be able to play. Just like others like Kevin Smith have. Just like Julian Peterson after a year. He, like the others, just won't be effective.

Until you see how Greg Ellis' unique scenario pans out, all of this is merely conjecture and necessarily has no basis to support your claim.

In other words, no matter how much you and Hos beat your chests and shout out battle cries, you still won't know until the cards are played. And it just seems to me like you think that you already know. But obviously, there is no possible way that you could know because all you're doing is purely speculating.

Which, given the benchmark of his career, makes him decidedly average and hardly worthy of a raise.

In a 4-3 scheme at DE, I agree. With the new system, and him at LB, I disagree. He's a good player to have out there. His size, instinct and athleticism make him a unique player.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Anygivensunday is right about back injuries though. People recover from achilles tendon injuries all the time, not so much back injuries. The regenerative properties of tissues in the CNS are not so good. The nucleus pulposa if damaged can not really regenerate itself, and tends to be a chronic problem for people with such injuries for the rest of there lives, surgery can sometime alleviate this.

Bone structures in the periphery like tendons have incredibly good regenerative capabilities for someone at the age of 32, but not as much as the younger folks, but still really good. And with mondern medicine full recoveries tend to occur more often than not for someone of Ellis's age.

What's funny is, he is saying that I am dodging these medical question when he's talking out of both ends of his butt in regards to medicine.

In other words, Alexander is a worded son of a gun that doesn't have a clue.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Yeah it is pretty bad. I dont understand if they thought like they do that it would at least be best to wait to see how Ellis responds to his rehab this season before even considering an extension.

I agree with this. But this can easily be discussed in the meeting - which Jerry promised, but now denied.

That's just not a virtuous thing to do - break a promise.

 

[Hostile]

Anygivensunday is right about back injuries though. People recover from achilles tendon injuries all the time, not so much back injuries. The regenerative properties of tissues in the CNS are not so good. The nucleus pulposa if damaged can not really regenerate itself, and tends to be a chronic problem for people with such injuries for the rest of there lives, surgery can sometime alleviate this.

Bone structures in the periphery like tendons have incredibly good regenerative capabilities for someone at the age of 32, but not as much as the younger folks, but still really good. And with mondern medicine full recoveries tend to occur more often than not for someone of Ellis's age.

His name was Joe Montana. He was a great QB for the 49ers. Won 4 Super Bowls. In fact he is the only 3 time Super Bowl MVP. Ended up traded to the Chiefs.

I'd say he came back from a back injury. Others have too, same as Achilles injuries.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

I think we should make Wade Phillips the offensive coordinator and Jason Garrett the head coach and not talk to them about their contracts until their contracts run out.....


Thoughts?

 

[Ben_n_austin]

I'd also like to note, that my opinion has recently changed. I was on the other side of the fence here, but I want Greg to play for us. He helps us. Therefore, I'm on his side.

Unlike Henson, when I felt like he hurt us.

I'm just standing by Greg because I believe he helps us tremendously at OLB, in regards to talent, depth, schematics and rotation.

The football guy in me wants to see Greg stay, so the business guy in me would be willing to pay.

But in reality, we all know it comes down to Jeraahh; as scary as that is.

 

[Alexander]

What's funny is, he is saying that I am dodging these medical question when he's talking out of both ends of his butt in regards to medicine.

You are dodging my direct question. Name the 30-something football players who have rebounded from an Achilles' injury to play well. I asked it before and now your partner in pseudointellectualism has passed it off to you.

Instead of simply admitting you don't have an answer, you ramble on and on, without directly answering the question.

If that is not butt talking, I am not quite sure what exactly is.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

You are dodging my direct question. Name the 30-something football players who have rebounded from an Achilles' injury to play well. I asked it before and now your partner in pseudointellectualism has passed it off to you.

Instead of simply admitting you don't have an answer, you ramble on and on, without directly answering the question.

If that is not butt talking, I am not quite sure what exactly is.

I've told you that I wasn't basing my argument off of any certain example. Rather reports from the medical staff in regards to Greg, and a few sports medicine articles that I've read regarding how much more advanced the recoveries are with injuries like torn ACLs.

Again, I'm basing my assertions off of what the experts are saying about Ellis' unique and specific case.

I'll elaborate a little more... Greg Ellis' injury doesn't have the same circumstances as Lawrence Taylor. Not to mention, medicine has advanced in 2007.

And here is the most important thing, so listen closely. Pssst! The medical staff on the Dallas Cowboys team say he is on course to make a full recovery.

What part of the above do you not understand? What part of unique are you not getting?

Can you show me a source from the Cowboys that says that he's not making a full, 100% recovery?

 

[scottsp]

You are dodging my direct question. Name the 30-something football players who have rebounded from an Achilles' injury to play well. I asked it before and now your partner in pseudointellectualism has passed it off to you.

Instead of simply admitting you don't have an answer, you ramble on and on, without directly answering the question.

If that is not butt talking, I am not quite sure what exactly is.

I've been following this thread and I, too, have been waiting on a response to that.

Again, Greg should be upset with his agent who advised him to sign this current deal.

I have no problem with a guy who puts himself first when it comes to his livelihood. And I can't take issue with a player who has reason to feel he is undervalued and perhaps unappreciated.

But Greg Ellis was extended and he's under contract. It's not Jerry's fault that James Williams misread the market when the last deal was done. It sucks. Now bite the bullet and play ball.

Or don't.

The player here has absolutely no leverage.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

I've been following this thread and I, too, have been waiting on a response to that.

Again, Greg should be upset with his agent who advised him to sign this current deal.

I have no problem with a guy who puts himself first when it comes to his livelihood. And I can't take issue with a player who has reason to feel he is undervalued and perhaps unappreciated.

But Greg Ellis was extended and he's under contract. It's not Jerry's fault that James Williams misread the market when the last deal was done. It sucks. Now bite the bullet and play ball.

Or don't.

The player here has absolutely no leverage.

The key thing here is, he has absolutely no leverage.

I disagree, he's being asked to do another job than he was asked to do when he was signed.

Hardly equally comparable.

 

[Alexander]

I've told you that I wasn't basing my argument off of any certain example. Rather reports from the medical staff in regards to Greg, and a few sports medicine articles that I've read regarding how much more advanced the recoveries are with injuries like torn ACLs.

So, you have nothing? I see. Just say so next time.

Again, I'm basing my assertions off of what the experts are saying about Ellis' unique and specific case.

And I'd like to hear more than vague assertions.

"We expect Greg to not only recover but play as well as he did prior to this injury."

That is specific and speaks to his unique case. And most medical experts will tell you this type of injury requires a grueling rehab anywhere from nine to twelve months long.

I'll elaborate a little more... Greg Ellis' injury doesn't have the same circumstances as Lawrence Taylor. Not to mention, medicine has advanced in 2007.

And I also gave other examples post-Taylor. Like Keith Hamilton. Like Kevin Smith. Like Julian Peterson. But you ignored those.

Here are some more.

Jamir Miller, Takeo Spikes, Trace Armstrong--I could go on if you like.

I just ask for one 30-something player who has recovered well enough to not only return to their previous level of play but also show enough promise to show they deserve a raise, sight unseen.

And here is the most important thing, so listen closely. Pssst! The medical staff on the Dallas Cowboys team say he is on course to make a full recovery.

What part of the above do you not understand? What part of unique are you not getting?

Can you show me a source from the Cowboys that says that he's not making a full, 100% recovery?

A "recovery" does not say a thing about his level of play, post-injury.

The 49ers medical staff probably stated Julian Peterson was "fully recovered" as well. And this was in 2005.

Have there been some unique breakthroughs in medical science in the last two years that I am unaware of? Again, do tell.

The only thing that cures this kind of injury is time. Time he has not had and won't have.

While you dance around with semantics, you once again avoid answering the question.

The reason is obvious.

 

[scottsp]

I've told you that I wasn't basing my argument off of any certain example. Rather reports from the medical staff in regards to Greg, and a few sports medicine articles that I've read regarding how much more advanced the recoveries are with injuries like torn ACLs.

Again, I'm basing my assertions off of what the experts are saying about Ellis' unique and specific case.

I'll elaborate a little more... Greg Ellis' injury doesn't have the same circumstances as Lawrence Taylor. Not to mention, medicine has advanced in 2007.

And here is the most important thing, so listen closely. Pssst! The medical staff on the Dallas Cowboys team say he is on course to make a full recovery.

What part of the above do you not understand? What part of unique are you not getting?

Can you show me a source from the Cowboys that says that he's not making a full, 100% recovery?

Truth be told, the med staff can speculate on a possible recovery all they want. Should he make a "full recovery?" Medically speaking, sure.

But professional athletes don't come off so well after this type of injury. This why I would also be curious to view this lengthy list of players (at such an advanced age) who have made such a splendid recovery.

 

[Alexander]

I disagree, he's being asked to do another job than he was asked to do when he was signed.

Hardly equally comparable.

:laugh2:

This train of thought would have been decent last offseason when he was claiming he could not play outside linebacker.

He was wrong. And so are you.

 

[DallasEast]

I disagree, he's being asked to do another job than he was asked to do when he was signed.

Hardly equally comparable.

Exactly when did professional football turn into a democratic organization?

 

[Ben_n_austin]

So, you have nothing? I see. Just say so next time.



And I'd like to hear more than vague assertions.

"We expect Greg to not only recover but play as well as he did prior to this injury."

That is specific and speaks to his unique case. And most medical experts will tell you this type of injury requires a grueling rehab anywhere from nine to twelve months long.



And I also gave other examples post-Taylor. Like Keith Hamilton. Like Kevin Smith. Like Julian Peterson. But you ignored those.

Here are some more.

Jamir Miller, Takeo Spikes, Trace Armstrong--I could go on if you like.

I just ask for one 30-something player who has recovered well enough to not only return to their previous level of play but also show enough promise to show they deserve a raise, sight unseen.

This is where you're misunderstanding my stance. My problem here is that Greg was apparently told something by Jerry. And Jerry promised him a meeting.

I don't have a problem with Greg earning his keep, but set some parameters. Show the guy a little respect. If only for the fact that he's been a Cowboy so long.

It's like welching on bet. You said you'd pay up, so pay up. Same holds true here. No promises have to be made. Just see how Greg plays, and if he performs well; pay him well.

On the other hand, you seem to be thinking that he'll be playing well enough to start. That speaks volumes as to how you think he'll recover. I mean, you think he'll recover enough to beat out a first round pick. Seems as if you have a lot of faith in the medicine you question.

I find this entertaining.

A "recovery" does not say a thing about his level of play, post-injury.

But, according to you, it does say he'll play better than a young, athletic, stud, 1st round pick.

Man, that's pretty good for a 32 year old with an ACL injury.

The 49ers medical staff probably stated Julian Peterson was "fully recovered" as well. And this was in 2005.

This isn't the 9ers and this is 2007.

Have there been some unique breakthroughs in medical science in the last two years that I am unaware of? Again, do tell.

Again, specifically, Greg Ellis is none of the examples you've cited. Who would have thought T.O. could play on a broken leg - but he garnered over 100 yards in the SB. That's unheard of.

I'm just perplexed by your logic. You think he's going to perform poorly but he'll beat out Spencer. You must not think a lot of Spencer.

The only thing that cures this kind of injury is time. Time he has not had and won't have.

By the beginning of the season, he'll have had about 9 1/2 - 10 months. That fits within your given range. And according to Dallas' medical staff, he's on pace to be at 100% at that point. And 100% tells me that he'll be able to do everything he once could.

While you dance around with semantics, you once again avoid answering the question.

The reason is obvious.

What is the real reason?

This should be good.

 

[scottsp]

I disagree, he's being asked to do another job than he was asked to do when he was signed.

Hardly equally comparable.

It's not a matter of being "comparable." At the end of the day, he's under contract. And he has nothing in the way of leverage.

Play. Don't play. Hell, hold out. I could live with that.

But for the love of Pete, could Greg Ellis please, please refrain from telling the world how he's this good soldier/lowly servant in one breath while intimating he's not about to push himself in training camp because our miserly owner refuses to "do the right thing?"

Puleeze.

 

[Ben_n_austin]

:laugh2:

This train of thought would have been decent last offseason when he was claiming he could not play outside linebacker.

He was wrong. And so are you.

Actually, he was right for doing the right thing and helping the team. In turn, Jerry should do the right thing and man up to his word.

As far as that goes, I am as right as right can be.