Vela: Part II: Should The Cowboys Take the Rusher or the Corner?

[MichaelWinicki]

Yeah I wasn't implying we needed to use the high first on a NT. You can usually find a decent one in later rounds. And although while I'm a big proponent on getting more help for the lines I would have trouble using a top 5 pick on a 3-4 DE as well, unless he was a beast.

What about the kid that drafted this year in the supplemental draft? They seem to like him.

Plus I don't think this team's braintrust believes in the prototypical "space eating" NT.

I think they prefer a guy who's a little more nibble and can supply a little more pass rush than your typical NT.

The problem with the pass rush this year IMO are the DE's. The Russian and Spears provide no pass rush what so ever. Not that a 3-4 DE is going to ring up many sacks, because they aren't. But these two guys are atrocious when it comes to rushing the passer.

There's been a lot of talk about Spencer not fulfilling his promise this year, and even a little grumbling about Ware. But I think the stats for both guys would improve if there was a DE who could supply some pressure as a pass rusher.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I just know I would hope we could get someone better than Paul P as DC.

AMEN!!!!!

 

[JeffInDC]

I say take the Pass Rusher and go back to the 4-3. My 2011 Dallas Cowboys starting D would like like this:

RE - D. Ware
DT- Olshansky (he is a good run-stopper)
DT- Ratliff (he is the prototype "3" technique DT)
LE - DaQuan Bowers, Clemson

WLB - Lee
MLB - Bradie
SLB - Spencer (actually does a good job at this now)

CB - Jenkins
SS - Church
FS - Mark Barron, Alabama OR Rahim Moore, UCLA
CB - Newman or Scandrick (let them compete)

That would be a PERFECT Tampa-2 Defense with the ability to generate a pass rush with just the D-Line (like Minnesota and Chicago do).

By the way, I did this just for the heck of it. I really don't see them abandoning the 3-4...............yet. I DO see them upgrading at every level of the D however, and I really think that either Pasqualoni OR the next DC is gonna try to move Rat to his more natural position of DE & replace him with a "fatboy".

Also, I probably should delete Barron from my FS wishlist after his performance against Auburn (I know, it was only one game, but still............).

 

[HanD]

What about the kid that drafted this year in the supplemental draft? They seem to like him.

Plus I don't think this team's braintrust believes in the prototypical "space eating" NT.

I think they prefer a guy who's a little more nibble and can supply a little more pass rush than your typical NT.

The problem with the pass rush this year IMO are the DE's. The Russian and Spears provide no pass rush what so ever. Not that a 3-4 DE is going to ring up many sacks, because they aren't. But these two guys are atrocious when it comes to rushing the passer.

There's been a lot of talk about Spencer not fulfilling his promise this year, and even a little grumbling about Ware. But I think the stats for both guys would improve if there was a DE who could supply some pressure as a pass rusher.

i think it was a wade phillips gap penetrating type system. PaulP if he stays is from the parcells line which likes space eaters. that's what ferg was brought in for. hold your ground instead of penetrate.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

i think it was a wade phillips gap penetrating type system. PaulP if he stays is from the parcells line which likes space eaters. that's what ferg was brought in for. hold your ground instead of penetrate.

First I don't know what Paul P's shelf life is in Dallas.

Plus Ferguson wasn't a big "space eater" either. He was more like Jay Ratliff than he was Gerald Wilkins.

Finally, I doubt Ratliff is going to want to change to DE at this point in his career... And can you find a better NT or DE at this point? I'm think DE is easier quite frankly.

 

[wileedog]

There's been a lot of talk about Spencer not fulfilling his promise this year, and even a little grumbling about Ware. But I think the stats for both guys would improve if there was a DE who could supply some pressure as a pass rusher.

I agree, although I have other issues with Spencer against the run as well. But certainly the complete lack of pressure up the middle has hurt him and Ware. Tough to get around the edge and get to the QB when he can step up into a nice clean pocket. Wade tried to fix the problem by blitzing Brooking up the middle every other play which was effective last year, this year not so much and we got burned for it. A lot.

I like the idea of getting the space eater though so we can get Ratliff to a DE spot. I think not facing the constant double teams will only help him and provide some of that additional push up the middle. Plus I think we'll be stronger against the run. As to what the organization prefers there, all bets are probably off until they decide on the new DC though.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

You take the passrusher almost every time.

Mens, mens . . . I thot we already had pass rushers.

Look, our secondary is a joke. We need to shore that up.

 

[HanD]

First I don't know what Paul P's shelf life is in Dallas.

Plus Ferguson wasn't a big "space eater" either. He was more like Jay Ratliff than he was Gerald Wilkins.

Finally, I doubt Ratliff is going to want to change to DE at this point in his career... And can you find a better NT or DE at this point? I'm think DE is easier quite frankly.

that's why i said if. it all depends on who the DC will end up being as to what scheme we have and where they think players will fit best. it's not really up to ratliff. he played DE his whole life until ferg got hurt. he moved there to help the team and i'm sure he'd move back to DE if it was in the team's best interest.

as for ferg, he wasn't a behemoth 340 lb'der but he was a space eater. a guy that didn't penetrate but held his ground really well and took up blockers. ratliff isn't that type of player. he uses his quickness to penetrate as opposed to hold his ground on double teams. they might only be an 1 and 10 lbs apart but they were different types of players and builds.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

that's why i said if. it all depends on who the DC will end up being as to what scheme we have and where they think players will fit best. it's not really up to ratliff. he played DE his whole life until ferg got hurt. he moved there to help the team and i'm sure he'd move back to DE if it was in the team's best interest.

as for ferg, he wasn't a behemoth 340 lb'der but he was a space eater. a guy that didn't penetrate but held his ground really well and took up blockers. ratliff isn't that type of player. he uses his quickness to penetrate as opposed to hold his ground on double teams.

I still believe it's easier to find a 3-4 DE who can pressure the QB, than it is to replace Ratliff with another NT.

And again, keep in mind, this team just drafted a kid, who's play mimic's Ratliff's.

I just don't see the sense of gutting the NT to shore up another position.

 

[TNCowboy]

Peterson is a once in a decade player? :laugh2: Not even close. He's a fine prospect, but he's not the next Deion.

Every time I watch Auburn, which has been several times this year, the most disruptive player is always Fairley. One game isn't the measure of a player, but when Auburn and LSU played, it was Fairly, not Peterson, who was the best player on the field.

And this notion that we're married to the 34....nonsense. Ware and Ratliff should be able to easily transition to the 43, and frankly, no one else we have is worth getting concerned about whether they can or not. Ratliff's out of position already.

Who are people concerned about? Brooking and Olshansky? One of our other jag DEs? Spencer has not proven himself worthy of worrying whether or not he fits into a new scheme. I can see maybe Spears being an issue, but after the cba is resolved, he'll probably be a free agent anyways.

I doubt we'll be switching, but acting like it's unthinkable is silly.

 

[TNCowboy]

I still believe it's easier to find a 3-4 DE who can pressure the QB, than it is to replace Ratliff with another NT.

And again, keep in mind, this team just drafted a kid, who's play mimic's Ratliff's.

I just don't see the sense of gutting the NT to shore up another position.

Sounds logical. Next season, a 30 year old Jay Ratliff will suddenly not get pushed all over the field as he has this year.....

 

[HanD]

I still believe it's easier to find a 3-4 DE who can pressure the QB, than it is to replace Ratliff with another NT.

And again, keep in mind, this team just drafted a kid, who's play mimic's Ratliff's.

I just don't see the sense of gutting the NT to shore up another position.

a 3-4 DE doesn't typically generate a great pass rush. and i personally think it's easier to have rat be a pass rush at DE and find a decent guy in the middle to clog the lanes later in the draft than spend an early pick for an impact 3-4 DE and leave rat in the middle. jmo since the beginning though. i don't see it as gutting NT but upgrading DE because you can find a decent NT easier than an impact DE. not that i'm pushing to move rat, it all depends on who is available in the draft and where we are.

as for this team drafting a kid like rat, that makes sense because during the last draft, wade's scheme was still in effect with no end in sight. again, it all depends on the DC but if PaulP stays, rat doesn't fit at NT imo.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Eh, Ferguson was a big space eater. He was a classic 2-gap NT. Parcells just didn't want him getting too fat.

And Wade said early on that he would use Brent more like Jamaal Williams. He may have been offset a bit unlike the Parcells NT, but his job was still to maul the center and demand double teams, not to get in the backfield.

As for what we should draft, that'll depend on what the new DC wants.

 

[Randy White]

I still believe it's easier to find a 3-4 DE who can pressure the QB, than it is to replace Ratliff with another NT. .

That could be done with 1 swift move:

you start Brent, who I think is capable of starting in this league already, and move Ratt to DE. I was in complete opposition of moving Ratt because I thought he's a player who revolutionized the NG position. While I still think Ratt is a special player, or perhaps BECAUSE of it, I truly believe his career would be extended if he's moved to DE. Tackles are harder to beat than guards or centers one on one, but not harder to beat than guard PLUS centers double teamming you just about every play. It's a win win situation.

 

[CanuckCowboysFan]

I don't think there is a pass rusher (OLB in our 3-4 system) at the top of the round (around the 10 spot if we draft there) that is worthy of taking over someone like Peterson or Prince at this point.

I would not reach for a player at OLB to be a Pass Rusher...besides ware it really has not served us very well recently.

You could look at someone to come in via FA, you could look at Butler if he gets increased playing time the rest of the season.

However I just don't think any potential 3-4 OLB pass rushers stand out to me at the top of the first round this year. And I darn sure don't want to waste a high end first round pick on a 3-4 DE.

So that narrows it down to O-Line or in the case of this thread...CB.

Robert Quinn says hello

 

[CanuckCowboysFan]

I say take the Pass Rusher and go back to the 4-3. My 2011 Dallas Cowboys starting D would like like this:

RE - D. Ware
DT- Olshansky (he is a good run-stopper)
DT- Ratliff (he is the prototype "3" technique DT)
LE - DaQuan Bowers, Clemson

WLB - Lee
MLB - Bradie
SLB - Spencer (actually does a good job at this now)

CB - Jenkins
SS - Church
FS - Mark Barron, Alabama OR Rahim Moore, UCLA
CB - Newman or Scandrick (let them compete)

That would be a PERFECT Tampa-2 Defense with the ability to generate a pass rush with just the D-Line (like Minnesota and Chicago do).

lmao you lost all credibility when you said you wanted to draft Barron to play FS LOL. Actually you lost it before that, but that was the icing on the cake.

 

[Randy White]

why I don't think we're going back to the 4-3 anytime soon is this:

Panthers coach John Fox was happy with the play of WLB Jason Williams in his first start.

Williams racked up seven tackles, accounted for two turnovers, and broke up a pass against Cleveland. "He did some good things," said Fox. "He made a nice play on the caused fumble, fumble recovery. I think, like new guys, he will get better and better." The 69th overall pick in the 2009 NFL Draft, Williams should be grabbed immediately in all IDP leagues for the stretch run. The physical certainly tools are there.

Source: Charlotte Observer


A few weeks ago I posted my analysis on a plausible transition back to the 4-3 by the Cowboys. I said in that post that the biggest benificiary of that move would be Jason Williams, who I think has pro bowl talent but as a 4-3 OLB, similar to Derrek Brooks. A couple of weeks after I posted that, Williams was released. That move told me that any consideration of going back to the 4-3 were out the window at least for the foreseeable future. If I could see what I did in Williams, I'm 100% sure that the powers that be in Valley Ranch did as well and if that's the case, they wouldn't have released him at all.

 

[NextGenBoys]

We have two edge rushers.

I'll take a playmaking corner or safety.

We all complain about our lack of turnovers, well how about we get playmakers that force turnovers?

The only one we have in our secondary is Jenkins.

 

[Teague31]

neither - OL in rounds 1-3.

 

[HanD]

even if we are in the top 10 and there are no OL worthy? you'd rather reach for a need pick? mistake IMO