Vela's Blog - OLB Analysis

[Vintage]

I love how people assume that Carpenter is better against the run and shedding blocks, etc. when it's Lawson who played DE in college. Carpenter for the most part was standing up and running at the ball carrier.

Carpenter lined up on the DL on dime situations as a pass rusher. He may have even done that as a nickle rusher too, I cannot recall.

The point is, Carpenter has proven to be able to shed blockers/take on blockers from both the LB spot and the DL spot.

Lawson, from what I saw of him, relied upon his speed moreso to get to the QB. Not that its a bad thing, because as long as you get to the QB, it doesn't really matter how. And he did that with his hand on the ground.

However, Carpenter translates to a SOLB because of his ability to play OLB in college, his size, his willingness/ability to take on blockers, cover TE's....which is what we need.

Lawson translates more to a WOLB, someone whose primary job is to rush the QB.

We have Ware at WOLB. Unless we are moving Ware to SOLB, we need a SOLB.

Hence, my preference for Carpenter. If we already had a SOLB, I'd be all for Lawson.

 

[theogt]

Carpenter lined up on the DL on dime situations as a pass rusher. He may have even done that as a nickle rusher too, I cannot recall.

The point is, Carpenter has proven to be able to shed blockers/take on blockers from both the LB spot and the DL spot.

Lawson, from what I saw of him, relied upon his speed moreso to get to the QB. Not that its a bad thing, because as long as you get to the QB, it doesn't really matter how. And he did that with his hand on the ground.

However, Carpenter translates to a SOLB because of his ability to play OLB in college, his size, his willingness/ability to take on blockers, cover TE's....which is what we need.

Lawson translates more to a WOLB, someone whose primary job is to rush the QB.

We have Ware at WOLB. Unless we are moving Ware to SOLB, we need a SOLB.

Hence, my preference for Carpenter. If we already had a SOLB, I'd be all for Lawson.

Actually, the clips that have been posted showed Lawson shedding blocks several times (probably about 1/4 to 1/3 of the clips). He can do it just fine apparently, but his speed allows him to get arond them so quick most times he has no need to cut inside. Lawson can put on 10 lbs and be bigger than Carpenter. He's already shown that he's at least stronger than Carpenter in the bench press. I would say strength-wise they're both pretty equal. Lawson has proven himself able to cover TEs. He has also proven his willingness to take on blocks (HE WAS A DE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!).

In all, I think the few advantages that most claim Carpenter has are well overstated. On the other hand its clear that Manny has some freakish athletic ability that Carpenter lacks.

 

[Vintage]

From NFLDraftCountdown.

Weaknesses:
Vastly undersized...A DE / OLB 'tweener who may not have a clear position at the pro level...Struggles to defend the run...Needs to get stronger...Gets engulfed by massive offensive tackles...Doesn't always play with good leverage...Needs to use his hands better...Is he just a workout warrior?...Won't be a fit for every team and will need to be in the right system to succeed...Relies on speed heavily.

From NFLDraftForecast

Weaknesses:
• Is relatively skinny as a DE
• Is not a very good run stopper at this point in his career
• Is not very strong at the point of attack, can get out muscled

From PFW

Weaknesses:
Too skinny and undersized and looks almost rail-thin. Lacks bulk and strength. Will get shut down by elite, upper-echelon NFL offensive tackles. A bit tight-hipped and slow to change directions. Too straight-linish and will overpursue. Gets washed by double teams. Needs to add more variety of pass-rush moves and gets shut down too easily if he can't win with speed.

PFW also said Lawson projects to be a pass-rushing OLB (WOLB).

Again, this is all under the for what its worth category.

I think Lawson can be good. Probably not with us...as he is redundant with Ware (unless we move Ware to SOLB, which I have seen nothing to suggest this).

 

[theogt]

Those are all great criticisms that I have already read. Good thing they're directed at him being a DE, not an OLB. These sites rank him among DEs. Of course he's too small for a DE in the NFL. Perfect, absolutely perfect size, for a 3-4 OLB.

Oh, and the WOLB in a 3-4 IS A PASS-RUSHER!!! The whole point of drafting a top pick OLB opposite Ware is so that we have some balance in the pass rush. Otherwise they know where the rush is coming from on every play.

 

[Vintage]

Those are all great criticisms that I have already read. Good thing they're directed at him being a DE, not an OLB. These sites rank him among DEs. Of course he's too small for a DE in the NFL. Perfect, absolutely perfect size, for a 3-4 OLB.

Oh, and the WOLB in a 3-4 IS A PASS-RUSHER!!!

Yes, I know that the WOLB is a pass rusher.

Guess what Ware plays for us? WOLB.

Guess what Lawson is better suited to play? WOLB.

That's the whole point.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Those are all great criticisms that I have already read. Good thing they're directed at him being a DE, not an OLB. These sites rank him among DEs. Of course he's too small for a DE in the NFL. Perfect, absolutely perfect size, for a 3-4 OLB.

Oh, and the WOLB in a 3-4 IS A PASS-RUSHER!!! The whole point of drafting a top pick OLB opposite Ware is so that we have some balance in the pass rush. Otherwise they know where the rush is coming from on every play.

I'm glad you finally agree that Carpenter is the better choice.

 

[theogt]

Yes, I know that the WOLB is a pass rusher.

Guess what Ware plays for us? WOLB.

Guess what Lawson is better suited to play? WOLB.

That's the whole point.

Mistake. Meant SOLB. I was in a hurry and typing fast. It should have been apparent from the context that I mean SOLB.

 

[Rack]

Vintage, you're wasting your time arguing with this guy. I already told you yesterday that his MannyLove blinds him.


I wasn't kidding either. Don't think you're gonna come up with an angle he'll finally understand. It's not about understanding with him. He doesn't WANT to face the truth of it.

Every year you get a few members that are DEAD SET on a certain player no matter what. theogt is dead set on Manny Lawson.

Bring up the difference between a SOLB and WOLB? Done. He won't see it.

Bring up that he's weak against the run? He thinks moving to SOLB will suddenly cure that problem.

Bring up that Lawson got a lot of his sacks cuz Mario Williams forced the QB to run to him (Lawson), he disregards it completely.



It's a lost cause. You can continue to debate with him, but everything you've mentioned in this thread has been brought to his attention before. If it didn't sink in before it's not gonna sink in now.


But if you wish to continue "debating" with him, no problemo. Just thought I'd give you a fair warning about his deep MannyLove.

Mistake. Meant SOLB.

Freudian slip.

 

[skinsscalper]

You look for quick fixes in free agency, not the draft. In the draft, you take the best player.

This is why I remain on the Manny wagon. Some have voiced their concerns that Carp may be more NFL ready today, and they MIGHT be right. However, we do NOT, as some might suggest, have an elephant sized hole on that side of the D. A healthy Singleton made this D pretty solid on that side last year.

Manny has more upside than Wimbly or Carpenter by a long ways (athletically). I see him as a Julian Peterson type of player (before his achilles injury). To be honest Carpenter and Wimbley simply don't excite me.

I watched the highlight reels of all three that were posted here the other day and, honestly, Carpenter was by far the least impressive. In the beginning of this thread there was speculation of whether or not Lawson was the real deal because Mario Williams was taking on the double teams and Lawson was beating only one guy. Well, there's a guy on the other side of our D named Ware (I'm sure you guys have heard of him). If I had to guess, I'd bet he'll take a couple of double teams himself, leaving someone 1 on 1.

Like I said before, I don't need the guy to come in and set the league on fire in year one, but I think the guys potential is through the roof, and I'd take him in a heartbeat.

SS

 

[theogt]

Rack, simply believing you've proven your point doesn't make it so. We have a fundamental disagreement about (1) Manny's ability against the run and (2) the role of the SOLB. I agree to disagree. We've actually never talked about Williams' affect on Lawson. You stated in the video posted that Lawson was usually the second guy to the QB, but I pointed out that in all but 2-3 of the plays he was the first.

 

[speedkilz88]

From NFLDraftCountdown.



From NFLDraftForecast



From PFW



PFW also said Lawson projects to be a pass-rushing OLB (WOLB).

Again, this is all under the for what its worth category.

I think Lawson can be good. Probably not with us...as he is redundant with Ware (unless we move Ware to SOLB, which I have seen nothing to suggest this).

Did you bother reading the (PFW) negatives on Carpenter? Did you bother reading the part about him being suited as a 3-4 inside linebacker?(also PFW)

 

[Vintage]

Did you bother reading the (PFW) negatives on Carpenter? Did you bother reading the part about him being suited as a 3-4 inside linebacker?(also PFW)

Yes, I read that. And IIRC, New England was looking at moving Carpenter inside if they took him.

But let's read PFW's positives about Carpenter

Big and fast. Lines up over the tight end and is physical with the jam. Does not let receivers release cleanly. Very tough and plays hard. Brings a lot of energy and spirit to the field. Can squeeze and constrict running lanes and keep outside arm free. Plays the ball well in front of him in zone coverage and has good hands. Has an NFL pedigree with a father who played in the league. Great weight-room strength.

Big, fast, can line up over the TE, jams well, tough/hard nosed player.... Sounds like a good SOLB to me. Furthermore, he lined up as a DE and an OLB last year. Thats prototypical OLB sounding to me.

But yes, I believe Carpenter can ALSO play inside too.

Lawson looks the part (and is the part IMO) of a WOLB.

Now, unless we plan on moving Ware to SOLB (which maybe we could), Carpenter is the better fit. Lawson's strengths match up very nicely at the WOLB spot. If we think Ware can play SOLB, then maybe Manny isn't a bad option.

But if we keep Ware at WOLB, Carpenter seems the more natural fit.

 

[Vintage]

Vintage, you're wasting your time arguing with this guy. I already told you yesterday that his MannyLove blinds him.


I wasn't kidding either. Don't think you're gonna come up with an angle he'll finally understand. It's not about understanding with him. He doesn't WANT to face the truth of it.

Every year you get a few members that are DEAD SET on a certain player no matter what. theogt is dead set on Manny Lawson.

Bring up the difference between a SOLB and WOLB? Done. He won't see it.

Bring up that he's weak against the run? He thinks moving to SOLB will suddenly cure that problem.

Bring up that Lawson got a lot of his sacks cuz Mario Williams forced the QB to run to him (Lawson), he disregards it completely.



It's a lost cause. You can continue to debate with him, but everything you've mentioned in this thread has been brought to his attention before. If it didn't sink in before it's not gonna sink in now.


But if you wish to continue "debating" with him, no problemo. Just thought I'd give you a fair warning about his deep MannyLove.





Freudian slip.

Noted.

 

[Woods]

Yes, I read that. And IIRC, New England was looking at moving Carpenter inside if they took him.

But let's read PFW's positives about Carpenter



Big, fast, can line up over the TE, jams well, tough/hard nosed player.... Sounds like a good SOLB to me. Furthermore, he lined up as a DE and an OLB last year. Thats prototypical OLB sounding to me.

But yes, I believe Carpenter can ALSO play inside too.

Lawson looks the part (and is the part IMO) of a WOLB.

Now, unless we plan on moving Ware to SOLB (which maybe we could), Carpenter is the better fit. Lawson's strengths match up very nicely at the WOLB spot. If we think Ware can play SOLB, then maybe Manny isn't a bad option.

But if we keep Ware at WOLB, Carpenter seems the more natural fit.

Actually, if Carpenter is able to play both inside and outside LB, that probably puts his value up a bit more in the eyes of BP. We all know how much BP likes versatility.

 

[speedkilz88]

Yes, I read that. And IIRC, New England was looking at moving Carpenter inside if they took him.

But let's read PFW's positives about Carpenter



Big, fast, can line up over the TE, jams well, tough/hard nosed player.... Sounds like a good SOLB to me. Furthermore, he lined up as a DE and an OLB last year. Thats prototypical OLB sounding to me.

But yes, I believe Carpenter can ALSO play inside too.

Lawson looks the part (and is the part IMO) of a WOLB.

Now, unless we plan on moving Ware to SOLB (which maybe we could), Carpenter is the better fit. Lawson's strengths match up very nicely at the WOLB spot. If we think Ware can play SOLB, then maybe Manny isn't a bad option.

But if we keep Ware at WOLB, Carpenter seems the more natural fit.

So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives.

 

[Vintage]

So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives.

What? No. My point from the beginning has been the same. Lawson projects to be a WOLB. Carpenter a SOLB.

I pointed out weaknesses in Lawson's game bec. I was explaining why he is projected to be a WOLB and NOT a SOLB. I didn't list Manny's strengths (such as raw speed/pass rushing) because its well documented and I assumed you knew that. I was wrong, I guess. What Manny does best, rush the passer, is better suited for the WOLB.

Manny's weaknesses and unknowns are exactly what is needed/required of a SOLB.

I listed Carpenter's strengths to show you why he is the perfect fit for the SOLB.

I didn't think I needed to reiterate what everyone and their brother knows about Manny; he can rush the passer.


So let me try this one more time:

Manny's strengths: Pass rushing, speed, athleticism.
Weaknesses or unknowns: Ability to stop the run, cover (and yes, I am aware he has the athletic ability to cover....that's not the question), jam people at the line.

Manny's strengths project him to be a 3-4 WOLB.

Carpenter's strengths: jamming, covering TE's, jamming, taking on blockers, etc.

Where does that project to: SOLB, ILB, OLB


Carpenter played the 4-3 OLB. That can and often does project to ILB in 3-4's. And in fact, Cleveland and NE have projected them to be ILB. However, other teams have him projected as an OLB too. He played somewhat of a tweener role in college, lining up at DE in nickle/dime situations.

That translates to a 3-4 OLB.

Manny projects well to a WOLB. Carpenter projects to being able to play any LB spot, and in our case, is the perfect fit for us as a 3-4 SOLB.

And since we have Ware at WOLB, another WOLB is not of need. UNLESS, we are considering moving Ware to SOLB.

 

[AsthmaField]

So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives.

He was scouted as an ILB by a couple of people... almost everyone else is projecting him to OLB. He's an OLB but he could play inside.

Like Vintage said, he played some DE too... so he was a little like a tweener... and those types almost always project to the outside.

I like Manny and I like Bobby. I'm not getting caught up in these battles because I'm not sure which would be better at our SOLB. Luckily for everyone, its not my decision. Parcells and the rest of the dallas scouting department has that decision and if they pick one of those two, we'll know which they think projects better to our SOLB position. If Bobby is there and we take Manny... I think it will be clear what Dallas thinks. If we take Bobby, then we'll know.

I will say this... Bobby will give us some flexibility in that he can play inside. If, for instance, Burnett gets healthy and becomes an animal at SOLB, then Bobby could easily move inside and become a pro bowler there because he has a skillset which is suited for inside as much as outside. That's big IMO and could be the factor that pushes things in Bobby's favor.

 

[theogt]

I will say this... Bobby will give us some flexibility in that he can play inside. If, for instance, Burnett gets healthy and becomes an animal at SOLB, then Bobby could easily move inside and become a pro bowler there because he has a skillset which is suited for inside as much as outside. That's big IMO and could be the factor that pushes things in Bobby's favor.

That's a very good point. I think people are "misguided" in thinking that the SOLB is a run-stopper first and foremost. In the 3-4 Bill intends to run the SOLB and WOLB positions are virtually identical. They both need to be able to hold up against the run, rush the QB and cover equally, but an emphasis is placed on both being able to get to the QB. The ILBs however are the run-stoppers. I don't agree that Carpenter is necessarily better against the run than Lawson, but if he were exceptional against the run it would be great because we could move him inside if needed.

People's perception of strong and weak OLBs is based largely on a 4-3. The 3-4 we're running is of course different.

 

[Vintage]

That's a very good point. I think people are "misguided" in thinking that the SOLB is a run-stopper first and foremost. In the 3-4 Bill intends to run the SOLB and WOLB positions are virtually identical. They both need to be able to hold up against the run, rush the QB and cover equally, but an emphasis is placed on both being able to get to the QB. The ILBs however are the run-stoppers. I don't agree that Carpenter is necessarily better against the run than Lawson, but if he were exceptional against the run it would be great because we could move him inside if needed.

People's perception of strong and weak OLBs is based largely on a 4-3. The 3-4 we're running is of course different.

No, the SOLB and WOLB both differ in the 3-4. Teams tend to run to the right more than to the left. As a result, you put your better run support defender at WOLB and your better pass rusher at WOLB (also bec. he tends to rush the QB's blindside).

I never said pass rushing wasn't important in either position, bec. in the 3-4, the linebackers generate the pressure.

However, at the WOLB, the pass rush is placed with more emphasis than it is at the SOLB. That isn't to say you should fill the SOLB with someone who cannot pass rush...but you need to find someone who more emphasis on certain things (coverage, jamming, run support for example) are equally as important.

Carpenter has all of that. And he can rush the QB. Lawson, to me, is the perfect WOLB. Carpenter, to me, is the more "jack of all trades" LB, able to play both ILB and SOLB.

 

[Rack]

You stated in the video posted that Lawson was usually the second guy to the QB, but I pointed out that in all but 2-3 of the plays he was the first.

Nope, that's not what I said. I said in those videos on alot of the plays he was either second to the QB, OR HE GOT THE SACK CUZ WILLIAMS FLUSHED THE QB RIGHT TO HIM (Lawson). You only acknowledged the "second to the QB" part of my post.

Actually, if Carpenter is able to play both inside and outside LB, that probably puts his value up a bit more in the eyes of BP. We all know how much BP likes versatility.

So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives

You don't think that maybe you just oversimplified the "he is scouted as an inside guy" bit? Just a little?

In the 3-4 Bill intends to run the SOLB and WOLB positions are virtually identical.

Tell me... how do you know what BP's intentions are?


Also, I think YOU are a bit misguided if you think the SOLB doesn't have to be a good run stopper.

But whatever, you don't have the ability to see reason at this point, what with your extreme MannyLove.

I don't agree that Carpenter is necessarily better against the run than Lawson

Wow. MannyLove at work....

People's perception of strong and weak OLBs is based largely on a 4-3. The 3-4 we're running is of course different.

Amazing. Simply amazing.


So because we run a 3-4, offense no longer have a strong and weak side. WHY DIDN'T WE SWITCH TO THE 3-4 A LONG TIME AGO?!?!

As a result, you put your better run support defender at WOLB and your better pass rusher at WOLB

Pretty sure you meant SOLB. We might as well start referring to them as Sam and Will. The SOLB/WOLB are too similiar and too easily typoed. theogt did the same thing earlier.

Carpenter has all of that. And he can rush the QB.

yeah theogt seems to keep "forgetting" that Carpenter is also a very good pass rusher. You'd think Lawson is the next LT and that Carpenter doesn't even know what "QB" stands for by reading thegot's posts.


And speaking of ignoring certain info about certain players... what does it say about who is the best pass rusher out of Wimbley, Lawson, and Carpenter on the first post of this thread?


Like I said, there's a difference between a speed rusher and a pass rusher.