Vince Young QB?
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dbair1967
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ABQCOWBOY said:
and once again, college "numbers" dont translate to NFL talent, especially at QB
look at what kind of system he plays in, what sort of plays they run and what sort of teams they've faced
Vince Young has little chance of being an NFL starter, and if he is he'll be a massive bust if chosen on the first day
David
Rack
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There's no doubt he'll have to work hard on his mechanics to be a good NFL passer, but even I'd say this is BS.
"Little Chance" at being an NFL starter?
I'd rather have Young as a future QB in Dallas then Leinart. Numbers don't mean much in college, but one thing you CAN do is compare them to other QBs.
That said, how does Leinart get his balls sucked so often by so many people here? Young has a higher completion % and a higher rating then Leinart, and he doesn't have anywhere NEAR the weapons that Leinart has. Doesn't have the WRs or the RBs.
Both Leinart and Young have thrown the same amount of TDs and Ints, but Young also adds the running dimension to his game (adding 5 rushing TDs, 400+ yards, and 5.5 per carry). Leinart has 3 rushing TDs, 22 rushing yards, at 0.9 yards per carry.
Young's only downside, IMO, is his mechanics. And that CAN be corrected/improved. Leinart is a good passer, but it's hard to tell how good he really is when he's had such great weapons around him. Plus he's got that shoulder issue.
dbair1967
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Rack said:There's no doubt he'll have to work hard on his mechanics to be a good NFL passer, but even I'd say this is BS.
"Little Chance" at being an NFL starter?
I'd rather have Young as a future QB in Dallas then Leinart. Numbers don't mean much in college, but one thing you CAN do is compare them to other QBs.
That said, how does Leinart get his balls sucked so often by so many people here? Young has a higher completion % and a higher rating then Leinart, and he doesn't have anywhere NEAR the weapons that Leinart has. Doesn't have the WRs or the RBs.
Both Leinart and Young have thrown the same amount of TDs and Ints, but Young also adds the running dimension to his game (adding 5 rushing TDs, 400+ yards, and 5.5 per carry). Leinart has 3 rushing TDs, 22 rushing yards, at 0.9 yards per carry.
Young's only downside, IMO, is his mechanics. And that CAN be corrected/improved. Leinart is a good passer, but it's hard to tell how good he really is when he's had such great weapons around him. Plus he's got that shoulder issue.
ome on Rack, I'm not saying Leinart is a great prospect, but he is eons a better pro QB prospect right now than Vince Young
please tell me you are not one of these thats believes college numbers mean squat when it comes to scouting NFL talent at the QB position
David
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college game day is in austin on saturday!
woot woot!
HOOK EM HORNS!
woot woot!
HOOK EM HORNS!
Hostile
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John Walsh story for you. His last year of college ball there was talk he was going #3 to Houton Oilers. They played their college bowl game here in the Copper Bowl. I was in college working at night in a sporting goods shop. There were 4 of us who worked there. We decided we wanted his autograph. The owner had some BYU caps so we each ponied up and bought a cap for employee price of 10 bucks apiece. I was going to be at one of the practices with a local High School recruit (went on to play for the Giants briefly) so I took these 4 caps and got Walsh's autograph.dbair1967 said:
I still have the hat. I bet it's worth a dollar easy.
ABQCOWBOY
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dbair1967 said:
John Elway, Troy Aikman, Carson Palmer. They all had some pretty good numbers too David.
The system he plays in is not a run and shoot. He's putting these numbers up without his starting RB and youth at WR. At some point, somebodies going to have to give this guy a little bit of credit for what he's accomplishing.
joseephuss
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ABQCOWBOY said:
He gets lots of credit for being a great college football player and his accomplishments this season. I don't think anyone is short changing what he is doing as a Longhorn. The NFL is a different beast. They are evaluating Vince Young to what has been done at the NFL level by many past players.
I don't agree with a few people that say he will never or has little chance at success as an NFL QB. I think he can. I do think it will take time and some good coaching. I don't think he received good position coaching at UT. Neither did Chris Simms. Both should have been more developed and polished after 4 years in college.
With that in mind, will a team be willing to spend a high 1st round pick on him? There have been more polished QBs that came out of college and still took a few years to develop in the NFL. He may take longer to develop. He will have to work on his footwork and maybe his arm mechanics. That will take away from his time learning to read defenses and more complex offensive schemes and bigger playbooks. In a win now league, will a team sit and wait for him? And I do think he will take longer than most to get ready. I don't think Parcells will draft him. He is already waiting on two other guys currently on the team.
I don't think it is cut and dry. No one can just say "he is going to be great" or "he is going to suck". Too many unknowns. He may stay in school for one more year. It all depends on the situation he lands in. You can't teach athleticism. That is just something a guy has and Young has plenty of it. He also wins. I think there will be a team that takes a chance on him.
As of right now, I predict his NFL career to be average at best. Seems like most QBs are becoming and being asked to only be average at best.
ABQCOWBOY
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joseephuss said:
I don't agree with your statement about Young getting credit. I think that some are open to what he's doing but some are very closed minded. In time, I think he will get credit but it's a bit slow in coming IMO. I think the Pro's will give him credit. I read somewhere that if he came out, right now, he would be the second player taken behind Leinart. That, to me, seems high but who knows.
I agree with your statement about athleticisam. He has multitudes of ability and you can't teach it. I also agree with you on him staying in and his coaching, thus far at Texas. I don't believe Texas is a good school for QBs. If you look at that statement, that even says more about this player. He is succeeding and posting very good numbers in spit of poor coaching.
I agree that College and Pro are two different games but you have to look at the commenality available and judge off that. The one thing in commen for all of these prospects are what they are able to accomplish at a collegant level.
I think his ability to make things happen on the field is going to translate into the NFL. He's also a natural leader. That will serve him at the next level. He needs a great deal of work but I do believe he can be a Pro QB. Even a good one if he gets the right coaching staff. Young actually reminds me of Cunningham out of UNLV, only he's better at this stage of his career. I think Young could turn out to be something.
dbair1967
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Rack said:
well they dont, and it isnt pure ignorance...so what if a guy throws for 6000 yds in a season if he plays in a pass happy, dink and dunk spread offense like thr run and shoot?
if I'm scouting a college QB, I dont really care what his numbers are..I want to know if he has a strong accurate arm, can read defenses, has a quick release and good footwork on drop backs....I also will pay attention to what type of offensive system they are in...these things are whats indicative of whether the guy has NFL talent at QB, not his raw passing stats
David
dbair1967
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ABQCOWBOY said:
Elway, Aikman and Palmer...about as totally on the other side of the universe in terms of QB talent in comparison to Vince Young ABQ
sure those QB's posted great numbers, but they also played in PRO STYLE passing offenses and had nearly flawless passing mechanics
Young plays in a system that isnt even a system...its the boring stand back in the shotgun/single wing junk offenses that so many college teams are employing today...he doesnt have good mechanics, he doesnt have a quick release, he does not throw with accuracy and he has no experience in making NFL type reads against NFL type defenses
like I said, he wont be an NFL starter at QB
David
ABQCOWBOY
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dbair1967 said:
Simply put, you can't base Youngs value to a given NFL club on stats or even the offense he plays in. He has the kind of physical athleticisam that, IMO, transends this. He can change a game, in much the same way Vick or perhaps the better example is Randle Cunningham could. You can't put a price tag on that. Teams, IMO, are going to be interested in this dimension of Young.
Rack
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That's my point, Genius, Young plays in the OPPOSITE (pretty much) of a run-n-shoot offense. Leinart has MUCH better players around him and has thrown MORE passes then Young, yet Young has just as many TD passes and has been MORE efficient throwing the football. And he doesn't play in a run-n-shoot offense.
Are you saying he will NEVER start a single game at QB in the NFL?
He may not be a GOOD NFL starter (if he doesn't improve his mechanics) but he will start for someone at some point.
Young has things in a QB you can't teach (size, speed, strong arm, etc...). The things he's lacking are things that can be corrected. If we can correct Henson's mechanics/throwing motion then Young's can be corrected as well.
dbair1967
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ABQCOWBOY said:
sure they will be interested, but the smart team will move him some place else...Vick is proving that this enfatuation with "running" QB's is just a phase...you have to be able to throw and to read defenses to play QB...if you can ALSO run well, thats a bonus...
Vick's been a massive overhype job...at least Randall Cunningham was a scrambler that had some throwing skills...Vick is a school yard type player
David
dbair1967
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Rack said:
Young doesnt play in a run and shoot, but its a simplistic offense built around 8th grade offense type plays, Matt Leinart is playing in an NFL style system...Young may have some physical skills, but its mostly from a run/speed stand point...he doesnt even remotely look like an NFL ready QB prospect and will be a huge project for whoever takes him..
and what you said in that last paragraph is the same things they said about Vick...4yrs later, he is still trying to learn to be a QB...the fact is niether has NFL quality passing skills
David
ABQCOWBOY
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dbair1967 said:
I don't disagree with you here. I simply believe that Young is progressing in such a way that he will be much more like Cunningham (A better version IMO) then Vick. I watch Youngs progression and I see a guy who has gone from what was basically a running threat to a QB who is buying into the concept of throwing the ball. That's huge for Young. I watch Vick and I don't ever see that. I see a guy who basically still wants to run IMO. Young, while he still has issues with throwing the ball, wants to learn to be a throwing QB. If the desire to learn is there, then that's what you need. Good coaching, together with hard work will put Young in a position to be succesful in the NFL. That is my opinion. The offense he's currently in has little to do with it IMO. Young will be drafted off what he can potentially do in an NFL offense. If he shows the willingness, the desire and the aptitude, teams will draft him based on that. Leinart may be the guy who is more ready to step in and be a QB in the NFL right now but, he's limited IMO. His celling is defined. You evaluate Young and the sky is the limit for him. Nobody knows how good he could be. Not saying he will be but potentially could be. I think Young is going to go high.
joseephuss
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If I were Vince Young, I would go pro after this season. I think he could use another year of college for development, but there are other factors involved. I don't think another year will drastically effect his draft status. I don't think Texas will be as good next year where it matters the most and that is the offensive line. Most of the line will graduate as well as his tight end. The tight end has been a safety valve for Young. Those losses could put him in a bad position. The defense is also going to lose a lot of key starters. If the defense gives up more points, that puts more pressure on Young. I think he will face more opportunities to get injured. My philosophy is to take the money when it is in front of you.