Ware, Wade and Finding a Cowboys Pass Rush

[Idgit]

I started a thread six weeks ago in praise of Marinelli and I'm not dissuaded even after the Skins game. I think who's doing a very fine job. Wade is just in another level, IMO.

Obviously the Cowboys need more talent defensively.

Wade's a very good coordinator. But the biggest difference between the two right now is the level of defensive talent on that team in DEN. We've demonstrated that we can find players with this combination of scouts and coaches. We just don't spend enough picks on defense.

I have no interest in going back to a 3-4 and starting the process again from scratch. I like that the current defense is technically simple, that we can plug players in and not have them lost like they were in Ryan's heavily multiple defense. Our only issue is that we lack actual playmakers at every level right now. Literally all we have to do is sit tight, upgrade 2 positions in the DL rotation, hope that Smith pans out, and figure out what we're going to do to keep/replace/develop the DBs after the season. We've got no offensive needs, so it's only repairing the significant lack of defensive talent from here on out. Don't need to change systems and coordinators to do that.

 

[gmoney112]

Wade's a very good coordinator. But the biggest difference between the two right now is the level of defensive talent on that team in DEN. We've demonstrated that we can find players with this combination of scouts and coaches. We just don't spend enough picks on defense.

I have no interest in going back to a 3-4 and starting the process again from scratch. I like that the current defense is technically simple, that we can plug players in and not have them lost like they were in Ryan's heavily multiple defense. Our only issue is that we lack actual playmakers at every level right now. Literally all we have to do is sit tight, upgrade 2 positions in the DL rotation, hope that Smith pans out, and figure out what we're going to do to keep/replace/develop the DBs after the season. We've got no offensive needs, so it's only repairing the significant lack of defensive talent from here on out. Don't need to change systems and coordinators to do that.

Anyone who thinks the coaching *needs* to do something, needs to pull up the depth chart for the Dallas Cowboys, and compare it to any team in the top 5.

It's amazing teams aren't scoring more, actually. Is there a DL in the league with lesser talent? How many front 7's are there without a single first round pick?

Marinelli is a great coach. So is Wade, and Wade has also had a ton of talent to work with. Do people not remember Chicago just a few years ago? Say all you want about the Niners and Seahawks then, but I think that Chicago defense was even better. They had one of the most underrated CB's, maybe in recent history, in Charles Tillman, and some legit talent in the front 7. But, they didn't have a ton of talent like you'd expect. They had a couple of great talents like any good defense has, and the rest were pretty marginal that got coached up.

Rod's not going anywhere, and he shouldn't. With the offense basically set for the next 5 years at minimum, besides some depth and too good to pass up BPA at WR or maybe Tackle, it's going to be pretty awesome to see what Rod does with some actual talent in the front 7 and on the DL.

I do know one thing, we couldn't ask for a better situation right now. With Rod's penchant to want guys to just get upfield and disrupt the backfield, with this offense and what we have in place already, we're in a position to get guys who do EXACTLY that. Imagine devoting that many resources to a defense that is the perfect compliment to your ball control, dominating offense. You have an entire draft class coming where, if we really wanted to, you could use every single pick on defense. The one after that too, really. We'll have needs at Tackle and WR, but that's it really.

I'm pretty amped about it, Idgit. If you couldn't tell.

 

[Idgit]

Anyone who thinks the coaching *needs* to do something, needs to pull up the depth chart for the Dallas Cowboys, and compare it to any team in the top 5.

It's amazing teams aren't scoring more, actually. Is there a DL in the league with lesser talent? How many front 7's are there without a single first round pick?

Marinelli is a great coach. So is Wade, and Wade has also had a ton of talent to work with. Do people not remember Chicago just a few years ago? Say all you want about the Niners and Seahawks then, but I think that Chicago defense was even better. They had one of the most underrated CB's, maybe in recent history, in Charles Tillman, and some legit talent in the front 7. But, they didn't have a ton of talent like you'd expect. They had a couple of great talents like any good defense has, and the rest were pretty marginal that got coached up.

Rod's not going anywhere, and he shouldn't. With the offense basically set for the next 5 years at minimum, besides some depth and too good to pass up BPA at WR or maybe Tackle, it's going to be pretty awesome to see what Rod does with some actual talent in the front 7 and on the DL.

I do know one thing, we couldn't ask for a better situation right now. With Rod's penchant to want guys to just get upfield and disrupt the backfield, with this offense and what we have in place already, we're in a position to get guys who do EXACTLY that. Imagine devoting that many resources to a defense that is the perfect compliment to your ball control, dominating offense. You have an entire draft class coming where, if we really wanted to, you could use every single pick on defense. The one after that too, really. We'll have needs at Tackle and WR, but that's it really.

I'm pretty amped about it, Idgit. If you couldn't tell.

Exactly. It's been killing me for years that we haven't been spending big resources on the front 7. Now we're going to. And considering we're going to still use a heavy rotation there, it's reasonable to think we can make upgrades even in year one. It's such a shame that Gregory didn't pan out (I consider him a lost cause). If he did, and if Jaylon Smith gets back next year, it'd be pretty insane what we could do with just one or two more impact players and depth across the board.

As you say, WR, RT, and defense. That's really all we've got to do. We have the staff in place, we've got the resources to keep who we're going to keep. As long as Dak doesn't turn into a pumpkin, we're in such a good position for the next 3-4 years here. And it's all got a home-grown Dallas Cowboys flavor to it, too. It's pretty incredible.

 

[Macnalty]

Ware had 6 sacks while playing his last year with the Cowboys. He was due a salary of $18 million and the Cowboys were in a major salary cap bind.

There was little the team could do. They had to let him go.

As for bringing Ware back...if the price is right...sure. But he'll be 35 and isn't the same athlete anymore. Expectations for Ware moving forward should be scaled way back.

I think it is easier to just draft some defensive talent for a change in this next draft, if we hit on Jaylon Smith things will become very shiny.

 

[Bullflop]

I'm counting on defensive help for our pass rush being a priority in the next draft. As far as our immediate pass rush dilemma is concerned, here's hoping the increased reps being awarded to David Irving tonight serve to bolster our pressure. Hopefully, Ryan Davis might finally manufacture some success as well.

 

[haleyrules]

Top 10 sack guys, Age
Von Miller, 27
Lorenzo Alexander, 33
Cliff Avril, 30
Dee Ford, 25
Vic Beasley, 24
Ryan Kerrigan, 28
Khalil Mack, 25
Brian Orakpo, 30
Cameron Wake, 34
Chandler Jones, 26

I too prefer draft-focused improvement, but since that can take time some to develop I'd also like to see us explore getting one pass rusher in free agency.

I think we need two as I'm not convinced D. Lawrence is more than a rotational piece.

Agreed. Chandler Jones is young and l believe a FA next season. Probably expensive.

 

[Macnalty]

Agreed. Chandler Jones is young and l believe a FA next season. Probably expensive.

We have experience to show that first year DE pressure is not what the doctor ordered for this defense, Joey Bosa being an exception along with being a third pick in rd one. Picking later in the first rd hobbles us somewhat, but this draft is gifted with Rush talent unlike any in the past five years. I am trusting the FO these days(fingers crossed) it seems after drafting Bobby Carpenter we have had full contribution from our #1 picks. Highly unusual.
Anthony Spencer: I know picking 26th we wanted more but he was a good player
Felix Jones: Injuries were his nemesis along with being a full time player
Mike Jenkins: Still playing in the league and made the pro bowl
Dez: Fell into our laps because of off field issues.
Tyron Smith: we had on our menu JJ Watts or Smith I do not look back.
Morris Claiborne: 4th pick injuries marred his initial contributions and he has returned to full form before this latest soft tissue event
Travis Frederick: Best center in the NFL these days IMO
Zack Martin: Best guard in the NFL made all pro as rookie
Byron Jones: We messed with him and positions he is still ascending in his production
Ezekiel Elliott: Best back I have ever witnessed does everything extremely well, his blocking sets him apart from all the great ones.

This is a lot of hits in the first round.

 

[dfense]

I dont think Marinelli is a bad coach, just not a genius like Wade.

Having the best OLB in the game and Ware to bookend can make a lot of coaches brilliant.
The defense either collapsed or quit on Wade in Dallas. fact

 

[erod]

Interesting theory...does make some sense. But when I look around in this league most games are pretty close.

The Broncos have got a heck of a lot of sacks when the game is on the line.

The money in the league tells you what the best football minds deem to be most valuable. After the quarterback the league pays premium money for guys who can sack or pressure the opposing quarterback.

Olivier Vernon, Miller, Houston...guys like that get the big money for heating up the pocket.

The Broncos are certainly built on defense, so theirs are more impactful for sure.

New England buries teams with Brady, then pin their ears back and don't worry about the run.

 

[risco]

Huh? Ware is 6'4, 258.

The Cowboys didn't hesitate to spend a high pick on Randy Gregory who is is 235 pounds.

Ware played in our 4-3 scheme for one year and could not do anything. He's more of an outside LB in the 3-4 scheme.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I think all of this revolves around the coaching philosophy, particularly starting with the head coach.

I think the staff knows that we really don't have a great pass rush to begin with, but we're not the strongest secondary either.

I think the game we really saw a pass rush was Cincinnati. We wanted to attack the Bengals, we just got D-Lawrence back and we had a healthy secondary.

The Packers game we had a different gameplan because Marinelli knew that the Packers struggled against defenses that flood zones and don't allow Rodgers to create a broken play.

I think with the loss of Claiborne and Church we are a bit more conservative now and we are more concerned with the rushmen being disciplined in their gaps than getting upfield.

This tells me that in the future, for us to get a better pass rush, we'll likely need to be more aggressive in the gameplan. Unless we find some absolute stud rushman next year that completely dominates the game and we don't need to be more aggressive to get that pass rush.

And I think what will prompt the staff to be more aggressive in the gameplan is to feel more comfortable with the secondary. That likely means a good replacement for Carr and possibly Scandrick.





YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Ware played in our 4-3 scheme for one year and could not do anything. He's more of an outside LB in the 3-4 scheme.

He was badly beat up.




YR

 

[xwalker]

There has been a number of posts lately critical of the Cowboys release of Demarcus Ware. It's quite understandable in light of our ongoing failure to field pass rushers and Ware's role after his departure for an elite Super Bowl champion Bronco team.

That's where we need to go back and look at the context of the decision and the impact of coach Phillips, both on past Cowboys teams and with the Broncos.

In 2008 Ware was a terror, tallying 20 sacks. The Cowboy defense led the entire league in sacks by a huge margin with 59.

And who was the coach that master-minded that defense? Wade Phillips.

Consider this quiet man's resume and accomplishments...

Phillips has been part of 19 top-10 defenses during his coaching career. Starting in 1989, when the Broncos hired him as defensive coordinator, every team he coached made the playoffs in his first season on staff.

And do his teams ever get to the passer! I did a random sample of different seasons. Here's how his pass rush performed:

Wade's defenses:
Saints, 55 sacks
Eagles, 57 sacks
Broncos, 52 sacks
Bills, 48 sacks
Chargers, 61 sacks
Falcons, 47 sacks
Cowboys, 59 sacks
Texans, 44 sacks
Broncos, 52 sacks

The Cowboys by comparison in years after Wade's departure:
2015, 31 sacks
2014, 27 sacks
2013, 34 sacks
2012, 34 sacks
2011, 42 sacks
2010, 35 sacks


There is much more to say on W&W....but I'll have to continue a little later today....

Wade Phillips D-Coordinator = Excellent

Wade Phillips Head Coach = Possibly the worst of all time. (Hey I have a great idea, let's let Jay Ratliff be the leader of the locker room. When that fails let's send in the Jerry the owner to try to deal with Ratliff). Note that Parcells rode Ratliff like a bicycle constantly telling him to shut up and play or be cut. Parcells even told him that he really wasn't worth a 7th round pick but those are just throw away picks anyway.

 

[T-RO]

Wade's a very good coordinator. But the biggest difference between the two right now is the level of defensive talent on that team in DEN. We've demonstrated that we can find players with this combination of scouts and coaches. We just don't spend enough picks on defense.

I have no interest in going back to a 3-4 and starting the process again from scratch. I like that the current defense is technically simple, that we can plug players in and not have them lost like they were in Ryan's heavily multiple defense. Our only issue is that we lack actual playmakers at every level right now. Literally all we have to do is sit tight, upgrade 2 positions in the DL rotation, hope that Smith pans out, and figure out what we're going to do to keep/replace/develop the DBs after the season. We've got no offensive needs, so it's only repairing the significant lack of defensive talent from here on out. Don't need to change systems and coordinators to do that.

Look at the instant impact Wade has on teams' upon his arrival. In one year look at the difference he makes.

1986 Broncos before Wade: 36 sacks
1987 Broncos w/Wade's arrival: 46 sacks

1994 Buffalo, before Wade: 25 sacks
1995 Broncos w/Wade's arrival: 49 sacks

2001 Atlanta, before Wade: 37 sacks
2002 Atlanta w/Wade's arrival: 47 sacks

2006 Dallas, before Wade: 34 sacks
2007 Dallas w/Wade's arrival: 46 sacks

2010 Houston, before Wade: 30 sacks
2011 Houston w/Wade's arrival: 44 sacks

Marinelli was only defensive coordinator once before Dallas. We don't have enough track record to know what he can do.

 

[Idgit]

Look at the instant impact Wade has on teams' upon his arrival. In one year look at the difference he makes.

1986 Broncos before Wade: 36 sacks
1987 Broncos w/Wade's arrival: 46 sacks

1994 Buffalo, before Wade: 25 sacks
1995 Broncos w/Wade's arrival: 49 sacks

2001 Atlanta, before Wade: 37 sacks
2002 Atlanta w/Wade's arrival: 47 sacks

2006 Dallas, before Wade: 34 sacks
2007 Dallas w/Wade's arrival: 46 sacks

2010 Houston, before Wade: 30 sacks
2011 Houston w/Wade's arrival: 44 sacks

Marinelli was only defensive coordinator once before Dallas. We don't have enough track record to know what he can do.

I think we do, though. Putting aside that we don't really measure a defense's performance by its sack line, Marinelli has done a lot with very little in Dallas already.

I don't think fans realize just how little talent there really is on the defensive side of the ball here. Like I always said with Garrett and Linehan while we were upgrading, sometimes the best coaching jobs happen on .500 teams.

What the organization needs to do (has done, really) is build competence in finding and developing players. Our staff is very good across the board. What we need to do now is stay the course and actually add some talent finally.

 

[T-RO]

Anyone who thinks the coaching *needs* to do something, needs to pull up the depth chart for the Dallas Cowboys, and compare it to any team in the top 5.

It's amazing teams aren't scoring more, actually. Is there a DL in the league with lesser talent? How many front 7's are there without a single first round pick?

Marinelli is a great coach. So is Wade, and Wade has also had a ton of talent to work with. Do people not remember Chicago just a few years ago? Say all you want about the Niners and Seahawks then, but I think that Chicago defense was even better. They had one of the most underrated CB's, maybe in recent history, in Charles Tillman, and some legit talent in the front 7. But, they didn't have a ton of talent like you'd expect. They had a couple of great talents like any good defense has, and the rest were pretty marginal that got coached up.

Rod's not going anywhere, and he shouldn't. With the offense basically set for the next 5 years at minimum, besides some depth and too good to pass up BPA at WR or maybe Tackle, it's going to be pretty awesome to see what Rod does with some actual talent in the front 7 and on the DL.

I do know one thing, we couldn't ask for a better situation right now. With Rod's penchant to want guys to just get upfield and disrupt the backfield, with this offense and what we have in place already, we're in a position to get guys who do EXACTLY that. Imagine devoting that many resources to a defense that is the perfect compliment to your ball control, dominating offense. You have an entire draft class coming where, if we really wanted to, you could use every single pick on defense. The one after that too, really. We'll have needs at Tackle and WR, but that's it really.

I'm pretty amped about it, Idgit. If you couldn't tell.

I've repeatedly said I'm not critical about Rod. He's not been provided top draft picks or free agents. But let's keep it real.

Rod spent 20 years in college coaching and in the pros he's mostly been a d-line coach. He had a very dismal head coaching record of .208 over 3 years.

I was shocked today to see how Detroit's defense performed in the 3 years he was head coach:
Ranking points/yards
2006 ranking: 30/28
2007 ranking: 32/32
2008 ranking: 32/32

OUCH!

 

[T-RO]

I think we do, though. Putting aside that we don't really measure a defense's performance by its sack line, Marinelli has done a lot with very little in Dallas already.

I don't think fans realize just how little talent there really is on the defensive side of the ball here. Like I always said with Garrett and Linehan while we were upgrading, sometimes the best coaching jobs happen on .500 teams.

What the organization needs to do (has done, really) is build competence in finding and developing players. Our staff is very good across the board. What we need to do now is stay the course and actually add some talent finally.

I'm fully aware that our front 7 is one of the weakest in the league from a talent perspective. Maybe the weakest.

I like the idea of staying the course in recent drafting philosophy (aside from some of the bizarre 2nd round risk taking). But you haven't presented anything to make me believe Marinelli is in Wade's league as the tactician to direct the defense moving forward.

 

[T-RO]

Wade Phillips D-Coordinator = Excellent

Wade Phillips Head Coach = Possibly the worst of all time. (Hey I have a great idea, let's let Jay Ratliff be the leader of the locker room. When that fails let's send in the Jerry the owner to try to deal with Ratliff). Note that Parcells rode Ratliff like a bicycle constantly telling him to shut up and play or be cut. Parcells even told him that he really wasn't worth a 7th round pick but those are just throw away picks anyway.

Very true and on Wade's wikipedia page there is even a statement that the Broncos management felt Wade lost control of the 1993 Bronco team when he was head coach.

Wade is no leader. But he's brilliant evaluating talent and with tactics.