WCO in the NFL

[Phoenix-Talon]

Well, our system is based on a power running game with draws, playaction, and downfield passing supplimenting that running game.

Bill has said many times how he hates a short passing game. "If you are going to go short, then just run the ball" <--Paraphrasing Bill here.

Understand. Thanks. But with the new drafts/FAs ...could that change? I could see KJ going short with multiple YACs.

 

[Phoenix-Talon]

Im agreeing with the other posters, parcells does not like the short passing game to much. We will run the ball a lot, throw to key and witten to move the chains and look for glen for deeper passes. sometimes parcells mixes it up with a pass to a back or short throw to Campbell (blocking TE).

on D there will be both 3-4 and 4-3, how this is all going to play out i dont know as this year should be a very different look on D for us and parcells isnt saying too much at this point.

Yeah, that sounds like what most are saying. Well I guess we'll find Out after so many games have been played effectively or otherwise. Are the new draft/FAs any Indication of change or is it just more of the same as last year?

 

[TobiasEagle77]

The best way to determine a team's base offense is to research their offensive coordinator. The Cowboys don't seem to have one, but their "passing coordinator" is Sean Payton, former OC for the NY Giants when Collins was the quarterback.

You guys would probably know better who really "controls" your offense, Payton or Parcells. But when Payton was with the NYG he did not run a WCO.

Here is the WCO coaching tree:

 

[Phoenix-Talon]

They did run a WCO style one year, while Campo was here with Hutch at QB and that horrible OC (I have purposely blocked out his name from my memory). It was a one year experiment that failed before it began. We were trying to fit square pegs into round holes with the type of personell we had.

Does anyone know what offensive schemes the Cowboz ran in years they accomplished their SB victories? Just curious. I'd also like to know out Of all Of the SB games played, which offensive scheme has proven to be more effective than the rest. No that's a question for "research-type" fan.

 

[Hoods]

I read somewhere that the COwboz did run the WCO in 2001 (not trying to be contradicting).

Welcome to 2005...

 

[Phoenix-Talon]

The best way to determine a team's base offense is to research their offensive coordinator. The Cowboys don't seem to have one, but their "passing coordinator" is Sean Payton, former OC for the NY Giants when Collins was the quarterback.

You guys would probably know better who really "controls" your offense, Payton or Parcells. But when Payton was with the NYG he did not run a WCO.

Here is the WCO coaching tree:

WOW! Incredible football saavy TE77! That is fantastic information. I'm holding on to this chart -- and I'll use it (if you don't mind).

Thank you sir!

 

[playit12]

Dayam it's good to read something from someone who isn't about flaming an answer to a simple series of questions -- thanks man!

I'm obviously not a Cowboz fan so I wouldn't have know some of what you told me, so I appreciate the information.

]By the way I take exception to the idea that all the teams you cited really run a WCO. Green Bay is a good example of a "sort-of" WCO.

No, don't take exception, I only highlight those teams because they had at some point in time ran the WCO (Cowboz In 2001); some currently still do (Eagles). Greenbay hsould be interesting to watch how they or any team overcomes the B&R defense on receivers.

Nice chatting. Good luck this year!

I think the current list of guys running the WCO is really just listing guys that studied under Bill Walsh at some point. Regardless of what offense they are really running these days. There are a number of reasons not to run a WCO...

Your best reciever is more of a deep threat.
You have a great RB that can take 30 carries a game.
You have a big physical offensive line.
You have an inmobile QB.
You have good TEs that you want to get on the field.
You have depth problems at WR.
You want to keep your FB on the field.

Those are just some and I'm sure others can point out more.

I enjoy talking schemes so if anyone takes issue with any part of this post or the last feel free to disagree. I'm a better student than teacher anyway.

Finally as for over coming the bump and run that's easier said than done. Personally I like the B&R, and considering new contact rules it's now more important than every to have a CB that can get a good bump at the line. There is no defense against timing routes in the NFL except the B&R. Teams like the Colts and Rams will feast on you all day if you don't disrupt their timing.

The only really good way to beat it is with a good running game (sweeps and screens for instance where you lose out on your corner as a defender) or deep routes, and mid range hooks or such. It's too hard to run with a Wideout if you can't give him a cushion at the line.

The problem with the B&R is that you have to be able to be more physical at the line (against recievers) and you have to force the QB to get rid of the ball quickly. We can't really run it because of the latter reason.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

The best way to determine a team's base offense is to research their offensive coordinator. The Cowboys don't seem to have one, but their "passing coordinator" is Sean Payton, former OC for the NY Giants when Collins was the quarterback.

You guys would probably know better who really "controls" your offense, Payton or Parcells. But when Payton was with the NYG he did not run a WCO.

Parcells calls the plays.

 

[ravidubey]

Dallas does not run a WCO; not since Coslet was OC. Parcells' offense is its own animal altogether. A little background:

The WCO is built off of a very athletic and super-accurate QB who can run designed sprints to one side or the other and throw on the run. Nobody did it better than Joe Montana, Steve Young, John Elway, and Brett Favre. Throws are short and so to compensate for their short distance the QB must lead the receiver to gain YAC. Big WR's are staples of this offense because of the crossing patterns and the need for accuracy. Jerry Rice, Cric Carter, and Terrell Owens are perfect WCO WR's. The WCO uses the TE, RB, and FB as receivers. You don't power-run from this offense, so plays must be designed to create space in order to run the ball-- runs are almost all draws and wide toss plays-- in this offense a short pass is considered a run. RB's are slightly less physical but better athletes-- almost built like WR's. Ricky Watters, James Brooks, Robert Smith, and Ahman Green are perfect RB's for this offense. Keith Jackson, Brent Jones, Shannon Sharpe, and Rodney Holman have had success as WCO TEs.

The Gibbs-Zampese passing offense calls for motion, timing patterns, and pocket passing with a sprinkling of designed rollouts to keep blitzers honest. It requires a QB with a strong, accurate arm to throw to any spot on the field with perfect timing. A mix of WR's of any size are featured as speed and pattern running are the keys to this offense since the QB is throwing to a spot which could be 15 yards away or 30 yards away. Henry Ellard, Michael Irvin, and Wes Chandler are perfect WR's for this offense. This offense pounds the football on the ground to force the defense up and bait for play-action, so hybrid players are keys to fooling the defense-- that is you must have TEs who can block or catch (or a combo of specialized blocking TE and specialized receiving TE or "H-Back") and physical RB's who can run, block, or catch. Chuck Muncy, Emmitt Smith, and Eric Dickerson are perfect RB's in this offense while good HBack/TE combos would be Clint Didier/Donny Warren, KellenWinslow/Pete Holohan, and Jay Novacek/Alfredo Roberts. This offense can pass all day or power run from 2-TE sets, but it calls for a lot of talent to be run correctly.

Sean Peyton uses multiple formations and motion like the Gibbs-Zampese offense but doesn't call for the timing passes and such. Bills Parcells' offenses have always called for physical, smash-mouth players and have often used powerful TE's who can catch, physical, disciplined WR's who can block, and a host of RBs who can keep the chains moving in support of a featured back who can grind time off the clock and make big plays. Joe Morris, Curtis Martin, Otis Anderson, and Julius Jones are ideal featured RBs; Mark Bavaro, Howard Cross, Zeke Mowatt, and Jason Witten are perfect TE's, and Mark Ingram and Keyshawn Johnson are perfect WR's. This offense also features a "utility" type RB who catches, runs, and mostly plays smart football. Utility guys from the past have been Tony Galbreath, Dave Meggett, Keith Byars, Richie Anderson, and maybe our own Marion Barber.

 

[TobiasEagle77]

Here are some good resources for you Talon:
Unofficial WCO homepage: http://users2.ev1.net/~jamrtm/
An article by ESPN: http://espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/history.html
for this article, click on the "launch" link to the right. An interactive coaching tree will pop up, you can click on each coaches name to read where he came from and who he learned under.

Offenses generally follow coaches around. Another prominent offense is the "Coryell Offense" of the Raiders, Rams, and Chiefs.
http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

 

[playit12]

Does anyone know what offensive schemes the Cowboz ran in years they accomplished their SB victories? Just curious. I'd also like to know out Of all Of the SB games played, which offensive scheme has proven to be more effective than the rest. No that's a question for "research-type" fan.

We ran pretty much what I was describing in my first post. Set-up the pass with runs between the tackles and pass to intermeidate routes.

There are quite a few advantages to that system over the WCO.

You Maximize Ball Control,
Limited turnovers,
and It gets stronger as the game goes on,

Of course the obvioius problems are...

It's slow starting and is not as productive in a rush offense (2 minutes drill).

As for which is better... Who knows. But I'd be willing to bet that teams that control the Time of Possesion win more superbowls.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Does anyone know what offensive schemes the Cowboz ran in years they accomplished their SB victories? Just curious. I'd also like to know out Of all Of the SB games played, which offensive scheme has proven to be more effective than the rest. No that's a question for "research-type" fan.

With the triplets, Jimmy Johnson as HC and Norv Turner as OC (and of course they still kept it pretty much the same with Switzer that last superbowl)....the team ran a Timing Based passing game and a strong running game.

The only time I remember them running a WCO offense was when Campo was coach and somehow Jerry Jones fell for the crap of Walsh who said that Coslett could install a Version of the WCO.

We did not have the right players for the offense.

 

[TobiasEagle77]

Sean Peyton uses multiple formations and motion like the Gibbs-Zampese offense but doesn't call for the timing passes and such. Bills Parcells' offenses have always called for physical, smash-mouth players and have often used powerful TE's who can catch, physical, disciplined WR's who can block, and a host of RBs who can keep the chains moving in support of a featured back who can grind time off the clock and make big plays. Joe Morris, Curtis Martin, Otis Anderson, and Julius Jones are ideal featured RBs; Mark Bavaro, Howard Cross, Zeke Mowatt, and Jason Witten are perfect TE's, and Mark Ingram and Keyshawn Johnson are perfect WR's. This offense also features a "utility" type RB who catches, runs, and mostly plays smart football. Utility guys from the past have been Tony Galbreath, Dave Meggett, Keith Byars, Richie Anderson, and maybe our own Marion Barber.

Overall, I thought your post was VERY informative.

One question. Where do you see Tiki Barber fitting in Peyton's scheme. I think of him as a protypical 3rd down back (sorta like Westbrook) who has learned to run well up the middle as well. I also think J Jones is very similar to Barber, in style and strengths that is.

From what I saw of the cowboys games last year, it seemed Jones had alot of success off of draw plays. I don't think of him as a tough yards back who runs on "running downs" but that's just me.

 

[Doomsday101]

Are the Cowboz ready for a WCO this year?
Can J.J. and the WRs do well after in the YAC?


As some of you may know, here's the initial script that will be altered by each WCO team ...

... the WCO relies on short passes to multiple receivers (WRs, TEs and RBs) to spread the offense, then the receivers must turn the short play into a long one with "YAC." The offense usually also requires a quarterback that can scramble and escape the pocket if needed.

or, do you think the Cowboz will ...

rely on shotgun, deep passes and power running games?
Is Bledsoe a "pocket" QB -- or can he bootleg and scramble when blitzed or in the RZ?

Just curious ...

I've read a Lot about the Cowboz going into a 3 -4 "D" setup with 2 DEs, a big fat nose tackle (NT) and 4 LBs (3 defensive linemen and 4 linebackers -- versus the 4-3 "D" setup, with 2 DEs, 2 DTs and 3 LBs (4 defensive linemen and 3 linebackers.

Which do you feel the COwboz are more aligned (taking the 2005 draft & FA into consideration)?

Here are just a few teams that run the WCO ...

[size=-1]Green Bay[/size]
[size=-1]San Francisco[/size]
[size=-1]Philadelphia[/size] (East)
[size=-1]Baltimore[/size]
[size=-1]Seattle[/size]
[size=-1]New Orleans[/size]
[size=-1]Dallas[/size] (East)
[size=-1]NY Giants[/size] (East)
[size=-1]Detroit[/size]

How do you think Arizona will stack up against the NFC-East?

Good Hunting -- git some

WCO left Dallas with Coslet

 

[playit12]

Dallas does not run a WCO; not since Coslet was OC. Parcells' offense is its own animal altogether. A little background:

The WCO is built off of a very athletic and super-accurate QB who can run designed sprints to one side or the other and throw on the run. Nobody did it better than Joe Montana, Steve Young, John Elway, and Brett Favre. Throws are short and so to compensate for their short distance the QB must lead the receiver to gain YAC. Big WR's are staples of this offense because of the crossing patterns and the need for accuracy. Jerry Rice, Cric Carter, and Terrell Owens are perfect WCO WR's. The WCO uses the TE, RB, and FB as receivers. You don't power-run from this offense, so plays must be designed to create space in order to run the ball-- runs are almost all draws and wide toss plays-- in this offense a short pass is considered a run. RB's are slightly less physical but better athletes-- almost built like WR's. Ricky Watters, James Brooks, Robert Smith, and Ahman Green are perfect RB's for this offense. Keith Jackson, Brent Jones, Shannon Sharpe, and Rodney Holman have had success as WCO TEs.

The Gibbs-Zampese passing offense calls for motion, timing patterns, and pocket passing with a sprinkling of designed rollouts to keep blitzers honest. It requires a QB with a strong, accurate arm to throw to any spot on the field with perfect timing. A mix of WR's of any size are featured as speed and pattern running are the keys to this offense since the QB is throwing to a spot which could be 15 yards away or 30 yards away. Henry Ellard, Michael Irvin, and Wes Chandler are perfect WR's for this offense. This offense pounds the football on the ground to force the defense up and bait for play-action, so hybrid players are keys to fooling the defense-- that is you must have TEs who can block or catch (or a combo of specialized blocking TE and specialized receiving TE or "H-Back") and physical RB's who can run, block, or catch. Chuck Muncy, Emmitt Smith, and Eric Dickerson are perfect RB's in this offense while good HBack/TE combos would be Clint Didier/Donny Warren, KellenWinslow/Pete Holohan, and Jay Novacek/Alfredo Roberts. This offense can pass all day or power run from 2-TE sets, but it calls for a lot of talent to be run correctly.

Sean Peyton uses multiple formations and motion like the Gibbs-Zampese offense but doesn't call for the timing passes and such. Bills Parcells' offenses have always called for physical, smash-mouth players and have often used powerful TE's who can catch, physical, disciplined WR's who can block, and a host of RBs who can keep the chains moving in support of a featured back who can grind time off the clock and make big plays. Joe Morris, Curtis Martin, Otis Anderson, and Julius Jones are ideal featured RBs; Mark Bavaro, Howard Cross, Zeke Mowatt, and Jason Witten are perfect TE's, and Mark Ingram and Keyshawn Johnson are perfect WR's. This offense also features a "utility" type RB who catches, runs, and mostly plays smart football. Utility guys from the past have been Tony Galbreath, Dave Meggett, Keith Byars, Richie Anderson, and maybe our own Marion Barber.

That's all great info Ravid... My one slight discorse would be in the difference between the cowboys Offense and the Gibbs Offense.

Gibbs used a mobile line to run counters and traps in order to dominate the LOS. That led to very slow developing plays and kept the defense to being forced to not edge blitz. They had to maximize their players in the center to account for blockers. This let him run several deep routes with his WRs.

The Cowboys offense rarely traps or pulls gaurds. Frankly, our gaurds are too slow. However we always had a great full back (to block the LB) and a large enough offensive line to bookend the hole. This did mean however that teams could edge blitz and we had slightly less time to run our routes. We didn't go deep as often accordingly.

There are a lot of good offensive schemes out there today, but not many are that one dimmensional anymore. Parcells loves to say "take what the D gives you" and he lives by that. There will be games where we toss the ball 50 times or run the ball 40 times depending on how we are being played. Incidenly that is exactly the recipe that the Pats have used.

 

[playit12]

Overall, I thought your post was VERY informative.

One question. Where do you see Tiki Barber fitting in Peyton's scheme. I think of him as a protypical 3rd down back (sorta like Westbrook) who has learned to run well up the middle as well. I also think J Jones is very similar to Barber, in style and strengths that is.

From what I saw of the cowboys games last year, it seemed Jones had alot of success off of draw plays. I don't think of him as a tough yards back who runs on "running downs" but that's just me.

Rule one of the book of Tiki...

Any attempt to label Tiki will result in plentiful crow in mouth following season.

 

[Hoov]

Overall, I thought your post was VERY informative.

One question. Where do you see Tiki Barber fitting in Peyton's scheme. I think of him as a protypical 3rd down back (sorta like Westbrook) who has learned to run well up the middle as well. I also think J Jones is very similar to Barber, in style and strengths that is.

From what I saw of the cowboys games last year, it seemed Jones had alot of success off of draw plays. I don't think of him as a tough yards back who runs on "running downs" but that's just me.

Last year Jones played 3 full games in less than 3 weeks (due to thanksgiving game) and carried the ball more than 30 times in each of those games for i beleive over 100 yards each game and one game i think he had around 150 yards.

Any back that rushes the ball 30 times and 4 days later rushes 30 times again, thats pretty tough, especially for a rookie.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Last year Jones played 3 full games in less than 3 weeks (due to thanksgiving game) and carried the ball more than 30 times in each of those games for i beleive over 100 yards each game and one game i think he had around 150 yards.

Any back that rushes the ball 30 times and 4 days later rushes 30 times again, thats pretty tough, especially for a rookie.

Yep...although Tobias did catch the part about draws / delays as that was what they ran more times then not with JJ at the time.

I think I read something saying they are going to do a tad more this year.

 

[TobiasEagle77]

I want to clarify the use of the word "tough". Any time a back carries the ball 25+ times a game, that's pretty tough. But I also like to classify the type of carry, and I consider the toughest carries to be 2nd and short and 3rd and short runs. Or running on "running downs" as opposed to "passing downs".

 

[Phoenix-Talon]

Here are some good resources for you Talon:
Unofficial WCO homepage: http://users2.ev1.net/~jamrtm/
An article by ESPN: http://espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/history.html
for this article, click on the "launch" link to the right. An interactive coaching tree will pop up, you can click on each coaches name to read where he came from and who he learned under.

Offenses generally follow coaches around. Another prominent offense is the "Coryell Offense" of the Raiders, Rams, and Chiefs.
http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

Thanks TE77. I'll take a look.