We just don't draft well...

[Hoofbite]

#31/38? You could also argue that Hamlin really slipped last season after his extension also. However, T-New had a bad sophomore season so I'm willing to extend that benefit of the doubt to a veteran on a new team as well. Then again, I'm willing to retract it knowing that Holmgren chastised Hamlin for sometimes being out of place in the secondary, as did Seattle's other safety.

Williams caused more of a headache than he was worth? How so?

 

[Monster Heel]

Aside from an errant shotgun snap here and there, Gurode is actually pretty solid. And I'm not so sure you are aware of his contract. 6 years for 30 million is pretty damn good IMO. If you are okay with Leonard's 50 million, I don't see how you can legitimately complain about paying a quality center almost 20 million less.

And the contract Brown just received is WAY MORE than Gurode is getting paid.....

37 million over 5 years with 20 of it guaranteed.

And really, the argument is ridiculous. You can't just hold out on signing guys on the hopes and dreams that a better player will be available. Just doesn't work like that. If you have a quality guy to resign to a reasonable contract, why not?

Also, aside from TO, who else has caused so much of a headache that they haven't been worth their contract? Nobody.

I don't think Gurode's a quality center and that's where the divide begins. The Cowboys could easily do better. You also have to take into account when Gurode signed that contract. That was a big deal at the time. He wasn't worth that much. As I stated, the Cowboys should've hardballed him or drafted somebody. He's not as hard to replace as a Flozell.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Williams caused more of a headache than he was worth? How so?

Oh, not a headache, but someone's whose extension wasn't earned in the long run. I would say with some certainty that if his cap hit would have been positive on his release a year earlier, he would have been gone.

Completely missed the headache crux of the debate.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

The only thing I'm really irked by is our inability to draft quality offensive lineman. That's really the only thing that I think we do pretty poorly. That's why it forces us to go out and sign all these free agents on the oline in order to get a decent one.

If we could start drafting better on the oline then we'd be doing pretty darn amazing when it came to drafting.

 

[JonJon]

I mean come one people how many times did it take the great drafting Eagles to get over the freakin playoff win hump. The Colts anyone how many years for them :bang2::bang2::bang2:

Manning was all but being laughed at in NY and all of a sudden he breaks threw and what about last year did he become stupid again :bang2::bang2:

I will never know what the media saw in "the great Eli Manning" during their superbowl run. What I saw was a Giants defense that dominated the opposition, a Patriots team that couldn't make the interception on many of Eli's errant throws, and one very, very lucky play that will happen once in a thousand tires to keep the game alive for the Giants. He's still the same old bum and he proved it last year.

 

[CATCH17]

I don't think Gurode's a quality center and that's where the divide begins. The Cowboys could easily do better. You also have to take into account when Gurode signed that contract. That was a big deal at the time. He wasn't worth that much. As I stated, the Cowboys should've hardballed him or drafted somebody. He's not as hard to replace as a Flozell.

You would be in the vast minority.

 

[CATCH17]

The only thing I'm really irked by is our inability to draft quality offensive lineman. That's really the only thing that I think we do pretty poorly. That's why it forces us to go out and sign all these free agents on the oline in order to get a decent one.

If we could start drafting better on the oline then we'd be doing pretty darn amazing when it came to drafting.

And thats really our only problem when it comes to the draft.

 

[Hoofbite]

Oh, not a headache, but someone's whose extension wasn't earned in the long run. I would say with some certainty that if his cap hit would have been positive on his release a year earlier, he would have been gone.

Completely missed the headache crux of the debate.

I thought Adam has said it would have been possible to cut him without consequence last offseason.

I might be mistaken but IIRC that was one of the huge reoccurring threads last offseason.

 

[Aikbach]

Who was praising the 1994 draft? We got one great player out of it and nothing else, Larry Allen.

Everything else was Shante Carver, Darren Studstill.

1995 was Sherman Williams, Kendell Watkins, Eric Bjornson, Alundis Brice.
Nothing there stuck.

1996 was Kavika Pittman, Randall Godfrey, Clay Shiver, Stephret Williams.
Only Godfrey was worthy of a draft pick.

1997 saw David LaFleur, Dexter Coakley, Macey Brooks, Antonio Anderson, Nicky Suala.
Injuries defiled LaFleur and only Coakley had a solid career.

1998 brought Greg Ellis, Flozell Adams, Darrin Hambrick, Mike Myers, Oliver Ross and Omar Stoudmire.
Dallas didn't keep Ross but it could be argued thus was a solid but not spectacular draft class.

1999 saw Ebenezer Ekuban, Solomon Page, Dat Nguyen, Wane McGarity, Peppi Zellner.
Nguyen played above and beyond and all the others flopped.

2000 was decimated by a certain trade and fielded Dwayne Goodrich, Kareem Larrimore, Mario Edwards, Orantes Grnat and Michael Wiley.
Only Wiley was worth a damn altohugh Edwards would eventually start by default.

2001 was infamous for Quincy Carter, Tony Dixon, Willie Blades, John Nix.

2002 was supposed to be epic with Roy Williams, Andre Gurode, Antonio Bryant, Derek Ross, Jamir Martin.

Only Gurode remains.

2003 was return to form with Terence Newman, Jason Witten and Bradie James and Tony Romo* saving the day.

2004 was a bust with Julius Jones, Jacob Rodgers, Stephen Peterman, Jacques Reeve, Nate Jones, Patrick Crayton.

Only Crayton remains.

2005 was sensational with DeMarcus Ware, Marcus Spears, Kevin Burnett, Drew Henson*, Marion Barber, Chris Canty, Rob Petitti, Jay Ratliff.

Ware is great, Spears servicable, Barber an all pro and Ratliff the steal of the draft.

2006 was a dud with Bobby Carpenter, Anthony Fasano, Jason Hatcher, Pat Watkins.

All backups or trade fodder.

2007 was Anthony Spencer, James marten, Doug Free, Nick Folk, Isiah Stanback, Deon Anderson and Alan Ball.

Late round picks were solid with Folk and Ball and Anderson but the oline guys look like flops.


2008 looks to be a 2003 caliber draft class with Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins, Martellus Bennett, Orlando Scandrick, Tashard Choice.

5 out of 6 draft picks are potential NFL starters, you know you had a good draft.

2009 is too early too tell but the secondary depth has a nice looking upside.

 

[cobra]

This is easy to figure out. The whole point of the "draft argument" is that it is more efficient, cost-effective and better to have home grown players instead of paying for them with trades and FA.

So let's look at the team and who might actually make it:

QB
Romo (homegrown)
Kitna
McGee (homegrown)

RB
Barber (homegrown)
Jones (homegrown)
Choice (homegrown)

FB
Anderson (homegrown)

TE
Witten (homegrown)
Bennett (homegrown)
Phillips? (homegrown)

WR
Roy W.
Austin (homegrown)
Crayton (homegrown)
Hurd (homegrown)
Stanback? (homegrown)
Johnson/Ogletree? (homegrown)

OL
Flozell (homegrown)
Kosier
Gurode (homegrown)
Davis
Columbo
Free (homegrown)
Marten (homegrown)
McQ (homegrown)
Holland
Brewster (homegrown)

DL
Olshansky
Ratliff (homegrown)
Spears (homegrown)
Bowen (homegrown)
Dixon (homegrown)
Hatcher (homegrown)
Siiavi

OLB
Ware (homegrown)
Spencer (homegrown)
Williams (homegrown)
Butler (homegrown)

ILB
James (homegrown)
Brooking
Williams (homegrown)
Hodge (homegrown)
Rogers (homegrown)
Carpenter (homegrown)

CB
Newman (homegrown)
Jenkins (homegrown)
Scandrick (homegrown)
Mickens (homegrown)
Brown? (homegrown)

Safety
Hamlin
Sensabaugh
D Smith (homegrown)
Hamlin (homegrown)
Watkins/Ball? (homegrown)

K
Folk (homegrown)
Buehler (homegrown)

P
McBriar (homegrown)

LS
LP

Out of what I will roughly call your "starting" positions in various packages, the Cowboys have 21 out of 29 as homegrown players or 72.5% of starters.

Backups/role players, I have 24 out of 28 or roughly 86%

That means that based on the people who have a shot at making this roster, 45 out of 57 players are homegrown, or roughly 79%.

79% percent of our team is homegrown talent. That means we are enormously successful in finding our own players.

And add in Canty, Burnett, Roy W, and Ellis who we lost from last year, and there are 4 more guys we picked that have been contributors to this team.

Seriously, we are as good as anyone in developing our own talent.

 

[Stash]

:signmast:

Excellent post.

 

[BBWC]

Yes.

Was 1st round pick Ron Dayne a hit? (Next RB picked in the 1st was Shaun Alexander) How about 2nd round RB pick Joe Montgomery?

2nd round pick Sinorice Moss has been worthless. (WRs taken after him include Greg Jennings, Devin Hester, and Brandon Marshall). Mario Manningham in the 3rd was a bad pick--the team was desperate for WRs and he didn't do crap.

2nd rounder Tim Carter was a miss, yes?

First round pick William Joesph is now on the Raiders... along with the guy the "Never Misses Jerry Reese" passed on for William Joesph: N. Asomugha.

Or how about 3rd round pick William James who they just out-right released?

How's OT Guy Whimper doing? Or OT Jeff Hatch? About as well as Free and Marten.
How about Eric Moore? Reggie Torbor?

Visanthe Shiancoe? He's the TE the Giants took right after we took Witten. Guess we should have taken Shiancoe because the Giants are better drafters.

Fourth round pick Jesse Palmer?

__________________________

I actually think the Giants are a pretty good drafting team. But my point is that you can nitpick the hell out of their drafting too. They aren't perfect. And I think the Cowboys have been just as good as the Giants in drafting players.

To suggest we are bad but they are awesome is myopic.

Psst... outside of Mario Manningham --who was a rookie last year, whose season was a washout primarily due to injury; so we still don't have any idea what the kid is capable of-- none of those guys you listed was actually drafted by Jerry Reese. So far Jerry Reese has proven to be nearly flawless in his drafting prowess, finding quality starters and vital contributors early and late in the draft.

 

[28 Joker]

I do think the Cowboys have really drafted very well, especially the last two years. The 2003 and 2005 drafts were grand slams. The 2008 draft boasts the very young and talented Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins, Orlando Scandrick, and Tashard Choice. I think the 2009 draft has a chance to prove worthy of being really good when it's all said and done.

The 2004 and 2006 drafts were poor, especially 2006. The jury is still out on 2007, because I want to see what Spencer, Ball, and Brown do. Allan Ball is making a charge to contribute this year, and I have plenty of confidence in Anthony Spencer. He is finally going to get his chance to play every down. Nick Folk is money and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie, and Deon Anderson contributes as a fullback.

Look at the players Dallas has hauled out of the 2003, 2005, and 2008 drafts:

Terence Newman
Jason Witten
Bradie James
Tony Romo
DeMarcus Ware
Marcus Spears
Kevin Burnett
Marion Barber
Chris Canty
Jay Ratliff
Felix Jones
Mike Jenkins
Martellus Bennett
Tashard Choice
Orlando Scandrick

How is that for 15 hits?

Some might scoff at seeing the 2008 class on the list as hits, but they all proved that they have serious talent and can play. The game isn't too big for them. Canty and Burnett are gone, but Canty was a solid 4 year starter, and he came cheap (round 4). Burnett found his niche under Wade Phillips and contributed as a coverage linebacker in the sub-packages.

Patrick Crayton (2004) was a 7th round quarterback from a small school. Julius Jones (2004) contributed. Otherwise, that draft was very poor, imo.

Jason Hatcher (2006) has contributed in the d-line rotation. I think the Patriots wanted to draft Hatcher early in round 4. Dallas took him in round 3. Don't look back at this one. It's ugly, much like the 2004 draft. Miles Austin and Sam Hurd hold two key torches to the 2006 draft. They were undrafted free agents like Tony Romo.

Dallas has hauled in three grand slam drafts and had two poor drafts. The 2007 draft still gets an incomplete. The 2008 draft was a big hit last year, and the 2009 draft may be a sleeper.

Dallas has addressed weaknesses at CB, S, ILB, OLB depth/starter TE quality/depth, QB depth, and RB in the past three drafts.

Look for them to draft heavy on the offensive line next year. The team needs more Robert Brewsters, and they may need a guy who can play right away. LG worries me right now. LT depth is a huge concern. C/G depth is a big concern. Plus, they will probably continue to stock the defense, especially the front three.

 

[5mics]

And that's why our team fails in the long run...

You win football games with good depth, and we haven't had it.

That said I have confidence in our last two draft classes.

Hell 2007 might turn out a decent class.

I think 2008 was our best draft since 2005. But then I can go back to 1994 before I see another good draft.

First time in a long time I can say I like the depth we have on defense. Wish it wasn't as young and inexperienced as it is, but I can see it as a building block.

We have a lot of potential in our secondary and lb corps. Wish we could get a some more players on our defensive line though. Still holding out for Hatcher to do something.

Wouldn't this have been better if you posted it around the Draft? Why now?

 

[28 Joker]

While I was looking back at past drafts, something caught my eye.

We all know that the Cowboys have shelled out big bucks to players on the offensive line due to some bad draft picks or picks that didn't work out (see Rivera, Davis (2 time Pro Bowler), Adams' 2008 contract, Kosier (a bargain), and Colombo's new deal.)

Thank goodness the Cowboys signed Mark Colombo and gave him a redshirt to get healthy, because James Marten was a big bust.

Here is what caught my eye:

In the 2003 draft, the Cowboys had Terence Newman in the bank with the number 5 pick over all. Round 2 popped up, and Rashean Mathis was on the board (the CB from the Jaguars). Dallas took Al Johnson instead. Jacksonville jumped on Mathis the very nexst pick. Dallas could have nabbed Newman's parter right off the bat, with their very next pick.

If Dallas would have commited to Andre Gurode at center and not moved him to guard, perhaps they might have looked at Mathis.

Drafting Mathis could have saved Dallas from shelling out $25 million dollars to Anthony Henry (5 year deal) before the 2005 season. Henry got $ 18 million dollars guaranteed and a $ 10 million dollar signing bonus.

Ouuuch. I still think that was a terrible deal to hand out, and passing on Rashean Mathis (in 2003) really makes it terrible.

It's all good now, because I love the talent at CB now.

From 2003-2004, here are the CBs the Cowboys drafted:

1. Terence Newman (1st)
2. B.J. Tucker (6th)
3. Bruce Thornton (4th)
4. Nate Jones (7th)
5. Jacques Reeves (7th)

Picks 2-5 led to Henry and Glenn getting signed, and Henry was way over paid as I've already noted before.

From 2005-2009, here are the CBs the Cowboys have drafted:

6. Allan Ball (7th) (CB/FS)
7. Courtney Brown (7th)

Up to this point, since taking Newman at number 5 over all, Dallas spent a fourth rounder on a CB, and it spent four seventh rounders and one 6th rounder on CBs. That isn't going to cut it at CB. Most of the starters come out of the first two rounds.

So, Dallas got serious in 2008:

8. Mike Jenkins (1st)
9. Orlando Scandrick (5th) *third round grade*

2009:

10. DeAngelo Smith (5th) CB/FS
11. Mike Mickens (7th) *third round grades/2nd round possible* knee

I can't wait to see Mike Jenkins get up and bump and run, and I can't wait to see him play cover 3 and quarters, because he's going to be taking balls to the house. Asante Samuel made a name for himself playing cover 3 and cover 2 or heavy zone. Jenkins can sink in those zones and jump the day lights out of balls. Just you wait.

 

[lspain1]

Please revise your thread to say that we do not draft LINEMEN well.

Then I will agree with you. Because we draft/UDFA almost every other position VERY well. I'd put our drafts in the past 5 years up against anyone in the NFL. We just suck at drafting and developing linemen.

I agree with this. Our choices of linemen have not done very well overall in recent years.

I would add the wide receiver position as well although this might be a deliberate policy move. I haven't done any analysis on this and I know the odds of getting a great WR are not good even at the top of the draft. That said, some teams have succeeded....and the Cowboys have not really made an attempt.

 

[dbair1967]

And that's why our team fails in the long run...

You win football games with good depth, and we haven't had it.

That said I have confidence in our last two draft classes.

Hell 2007 might turn out a decent class.

I think 2008 was our best draft since 2005. But then I can go back to 1994 before I see another good draft.

.

1998 was pretty damn good. In a weak overall draft we got Ellis and Flozelle Adams, and DIDNT make that trade for Andre Wadsworth (Jones said he offered the Cards the 1&2 in 98 AND our 99 1st rd pick) to move up to get Wadsworth. The story is the Cards laughed at the deal and their GM said "did you think we wanted to hand Dallas the super bowl?" Guess who laughed last there?

Also, 2003 has to be commended, we got Newman, Witten and Bradie James. James should have made the probowl last yr (and probably one other yr too), Newman should have made multiple probowls and Witten is the best TE in football.

Derek Ross was a loser, but Antonio Bryant has proven to be a good player (albeit somehwat of a head case). Roy was one of the top players in football his first few years and Andre Gurode is one of the top C's (maybe the best) in the league.

 

[dbair1967]

Sadly, I kind of agree although I think we are improving.

But the problem is that teams in our division, minus Washington are drafting better too.

The Eagles seem to be making better decisions than us.

Really? Hows that Trevor Laws and Kevin Kolb top pick decisions working out for them? Winston Justice? Mike Patterson, Reggie Brown, Matt Ware, Jerome McDougle, Micheal Lewis, Freddie Mitchell, Quinten Caver...all these were high draft picks in recent drafts for them.

And does Jerry Reese ever miss on a draft pick???

Yeah, he does

 

[28 Joker]

Here are the linebackers the Cowboys have drafted since 2003:

1. Bradie James (4th)
2. DeMarcus Ware (1st)
3. Kevin Burnett (2nd)

Burnett didn't fit Parcells' power scheme, and he couldn't maintain the weight they wanted him to play at from what I've read. Burnett played at 240 in college, but he played at 227 the past two years as the nickel or dime linebacker. Players like Scott Shanlee and Ryan Fowler, undrafted guys, played ahead of him his rookie season.

So, with Burnett not fitting the scheme, the Cowboys signed Akin Ayodele to a $ 17 million dollar contract and a $ 5 million dollar signing bonus. I think that was a bad signing, especially when you consider the next guy the Cowboys drafted. Plus, Ayodele turned out to be a disappointment. It wasn't a huge deal but still. Missing on Burnett sent Dallas back to the draft. They would have been better off drafting a couple of linebackers out of the 2006 draft and starting one of them instead of signing Ayodele. Oh, wait. They took one in the first round.


4. Bobby Carpenter (1st)

Carpenter was drafted to play outside in Parcells' scheme. However, Greg Ellis ended up taking the job after being converted to an OLB. Carpenter ended up playing outside at the end of the year when Ellis was injured, but he proved to be a space player and not so much of a pass rusher. He was easily engulfed by big tackles, just like Burnett was engulfed by them. So, Carpenter was moved inside just like Burnett was.

5. Anthony Spencer (1st)

A coaching change after Parcells retired still saw the need to draft Ware's partner on the outside. Phillips entered and took a defensive end/hybrid player. Dallas viewed the pick as a future move and insurance against an injury. Jerry Jones pulled off a great 2007 trade for a future number one pick in 2008. That player turned out to be Felix Jones, a junior, a player whom could have been a top 10 pick if he would have stayed in school, imo. Getting a 2008 first and Spencer was a big coup for the Jones boys.


6. Eric Walden (6th)

The Cowboys drafted Walden out of MTSU and then cut him. James Marten was kept and later cut before the season started. Walden plays for Miami now.


7. Jason Williams (3rd)
8. Victor Butler (4th)
9. Brandon Williams (4th)
10. Stephen Hodge (6th)

After finding James, Ware, and Spencer, the Cowboys went for it in 2009. They brought in talented defensive ends to convert and provide much needed depth, and Brandon Williams should be able to rush the passer this year. Plus, Brandon Williams isn't a joke, and Spencer will be pushed and will have to kick into gear and stay out of trouble. Jason Williams and Stephen Hodge will give Dallas a legit shot to finally develop Bradie James' partner. Both players have the speed to play every down. Jason Williams could be a special player.

Perhaps the days of Akin Ayodele, Zach Thomas, and Keith Brooking will end soon.

By the way, someone send Matt Millen a nice big box of candy for drafting Mike Williams at number 10 and leaving DeMarcus Ware for the taking.

 

[28 Joker]

Man, looking at that Silence of the Lambs clip freaked me out again. It made me remember a certain terrible movie, in that time period, that I took one hot blond girl to see. Oh, well. You can't win them all.

I'm jamming to some Motley Crue right now and looking at the terrible offensive linemen the Cowboys have drafted since 2003.

After you read this list, you might want to have someone Kickstart Your Heart...

1. Al Johnson (2nd)
2. Justin Rodgers (2nd)
3. Stephen Peterman (3rd)
4. Rob Petitti (6th)
5. Pat McQuistan (7th)
6. E.J. Whitley (7th)
7. James Marten (3rd)
8. Doug Free (4th)

9. Robert Brewster (3rd)

Thank goodness for Andre Gurode (2nd/2002; *3 Time Pro Bowler*) and Mark Colombo (FA 2005). That is one multiple Pro Bowler and a solid starting RT. However, the depth issue remains a big concern, and you don't have to go any further than this putrid list. Jerry, you should have bough Jeff Ireland's ticket to Miami and sent him on his way before the 2007 draft. What's up with that?

Those poor picks cost Dallas big, big money on the offensive line.

Marco Rivera (8 million dollar SB) (hurt his back)
Flozell Adams ($15 million guaranteed/ $43.6 million;6yr/2nd contract)
Kyle Kosier ($15 million dollar contract/$ 5 million SB) *Bargain*
Leonard Davis ($49.6 million dollar contract/$18.7 guaranteed) *2 Time Pro Bowler*
Mark Colombo ($ 22 million dollar contract/ $ 8 million guaranteed)

If Flozell Adams (2nd/1998) can play close to how he played in his absolutely dominant 2007 season, the Cowboys should be alright. Let's hope for a healthy Flozell this year. He was banged up last year like everyone else. Let's hope for a healthy Kyle Kosier, too. Dallas simply can't afford any injuries on the offensive line.

Rafael Vela's source said Brewster played with a whole lot of effort and has good size. The source said he needed to get stronger and develop, and that is normal for offensive linemen.