We need to draft an Olineman from Hawaii

[Bob Sacamano]

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu75JPBRGQ0cBuF9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3OGlmb2VlBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlI1XzE0Mg--/SIG=12dmh5mkg/EXP=1175817673/**http%3a//forum.signonsandiego.com/printthread.php%3ft=43317

Then I looked for athletes with average-to-below average 40-yard times for their position who make up for the lack of long straight speed with exceptional quickness and change of direction. As we all know, unless you're on the kickoff team or running a "go" route at the wide receiver position, it's almost impossible to find a spot in a football game where you can identify a 40-yard dash. A lack of great straight speed can easily be offset by the ability to explode out of a stance, change direction in five yards, explode again for 10 yards and then change direction again, all while keeping your weight down. The short shuttle can be a much better indication of your ability to play football fast. I didn't say an indication of the ability to play football, but rather of the ability to play football fast.

I handled the speed training for the players when I was with the Jets for three years back in the early 90s. My general rule of thumb for comparing speed (the 40-yard dash time) to quickness and change of direction (the 20-yard short-shuttle test) was to take the 40 time and subtract the short-shuttle time and expect a 0.5 difference. For example, a player with a 5.0 40 time needs to run a 4.5 short shuttle to get the 0.5 differential. Simply stated, his speed and his quickness relate to each other. A man who runs a 4.4 40 and a 4.4 short shuttle is really a guy with straight-line speed who may not play very fast because of a lack of quickness. He is often referred to as a guy with "track speed." Conversely, an athlete who runs an average time of 4.7 in the 40 but can hit the short shuttle in 3.9 -- significantly better than the 0.5 differential -- can overcome his average speed with great quickness and change of direction.

again, this formula is measuring quickness

 

[lspain1]

Hmmmmmm....there seems to be a lot of debate on this guy. I recommend that Cowboyszone send me "on-site" for two weeks to make a first hand evaluation on Maui. I suggest some drills to evaluate Satele:

1. pipeline surfing to check on courage and the ability to do the "swim" move

2. the bikini run on the beach to evaluate his judgement and quickness off the mark

3. and finally the "juggling fire at night" drill on the beach with a large roast pig and poi to evaluate his dexterity

I pledge to witness these drills personally and provide a comprehensive report if the Zoners will simply provide the necessary funds. I'm willing to make the sacrifice here for the good of the Zone!

 

[Teague31]

Hmmmmmm....there seems to be a lot of debate on this guy. I recommend that Cowboyszone send me "on-site" for two weeks to make a first hand evaluation on Maui. I suggest some drills to evaluate Satele:

1. pipeline surfing to check on courage and the ability to do the "swim" move

2. the bikini run on the beach to evaluate his judgement and quickness off the mark

3. and finally the "juggling fire at night" drill on the beach with a large roast pig and poi to evaluate his dexterity

I pledge to witness these drills personally and provide a comprehensive report if the Zoners will simply provide the necessary funds. I'm willing to make the sacrifice here for the good of the Zone!

 

[silverbear]

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu75JPBRGQ0cBuF9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3OGlmb2VlBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlI1XzE0Mg--/SIG=12dmh5mkg/EXP=1175817673/**http%3a//forum.signonsandiego.com/printthread.php%3ft=43317

Then I looked for athletes with average-to-below average 40-yard times for their position who make up for the lack of long straight speed with exceptional quickness and change of direction. As we all know, unless you're on the kickoff team or running a "go" route at the wide receiver position, it's almost impossible to find a spot in a football game where you can identify a 40-yard dash. A lack of great straight speed can easily be offset by the ability to explode out of a stance, change direction in five yards, explode again for 10 yards and then change direction again, all while keeping your weight down. The short shuttle can be a much better indication of your ability to play football fast. I didn't say an indication of the ability to play football, but rather of the ability to play football fast.

I handled the speed training for the players when I was with the Jets for three years back in the early 90s. My general rule of thumb for comparing speed (the 40-yard dash time) to quickness and change of direction (the 20-yard short-shuttle test) was to take the 40 time and subtract the short-shuttle time and expect a 0.5 difference. For example, a player with a 5.0 40 time needs to run a 4.5 short shuttle to get the 0.5 differential. Simply stated, his speed and his quickness relate to each other. A man who runs a 4.4 40 and a 4.4 short shuttle is really a guy with straight-line speed who may not play very fast because of a lack of quickness. He is often referred to as a guy with "track speed." Conversely, an athlete who runs an average time of 4.7 in the 40 but can hit the short shuttle in 3.9 -- significantly better than the 0.5 differential -- can overcome his average speed with great quickness and change of direction.

again, this formula is measuring quickness

And of course, Pat Kirwan is well-known as THE guru of workout numbers... if he says it, it's gold... that's why he's sought after by many teams, to be their director of personnel...

I never would have figured you to be puffing the pet theories of some MEDIOT, bud... bluntly, if there was any substance to Kirwan's little equations, they'd be the standard that teams use in personnel evaluation...

I guess you think KC Joyner has the game of football all figured out, too...

 

[Bob Sacamano]

And of course, Pat Kirwan is well-known as THE guru of workout numbers... if he says it, it's gold... that's why he's sought after by many teams, to be their director of personnel...

I never would have figured you to be puffing the pet theories of some MEDIOT, bud... bluntly, if there was any substance to Kirwan's little equations, they'd be the standard that teams use in personnel evaluation...

I guess you think KC Joyner has the game of football all figured out, too...

thanks for sharing

 

[theogt]

again, this formula is measuring quickness

I think you're having trouble reading. Look at this:

Then I looked for athletes with average-to-below average 40-yard times for their position who make up for the lack of long straight speed with exceptional quickness and change of direction.

Kirwan is looking at the shuttle time to see if a player that doesn't have "long straight speed" (which is measured by the 40 time) can make up for that deficiency by having exceptional quickness (which is measured by the shuttle time). Kirwan's entire point is that "quickness" is measured by the shuttle time, rather than the 40.

The difference between 40 time and shuttle time doesn't measure quickness. The shuttle time measures quickness. The differential just measures their quickness relative to their 40 time.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Kirwan's entire point is that "quickness" is measured by the shuttle time, rather than the 40.

his point is that you don't have to have a great 40 time, that you can make up for it w/ quickness and explosion, which the .5 differential represents

from the article:

A man who runs a 4.4 40 and a 4.4 short shuttle is really a guy with straight-line speed who may not play very fast because of a lack of quickness.

The difference between 40 time and shuttle time doesn't measure quickness. The shuttle time measures quickness. The differential just measures their quickness relative to their 40 time.

and if relative to their slow 40, that they are quick, what does that tell us?

 

[big dog cowboy]

we need to draft an Olineman from Hawaii

Hawaii OLman are a little like Texas Tech OLman. They throw the ball so darn much it's hard to tell what you have and how their talent will translates to the pros.

true, but at least they are prepared to play in space and these guys have the talent to do it well

So does that mean they can play in the NFL or not. Additionally, can they run block?

 

[theogt]

his point is that you don't have to have a great 40 time, that you can make up for it w/ quickness and explosion, which the .5 differential represents

and if relative to their slow 40, that they are quick, what does that tell us?

Ok, summer. Let me ask you this:

We have a hypothetical player. Let's call this player Bob. Bob has a 5.5 40 time. That's pretty slow, right? Of course it is. Now bob also has a 5.4 shuttle time. That's pretty slow, right? Of course it is.

But what is his 40/shuttle differential? 0.1. So what does that tell us? Does that tell us he's quick? Does that tell us he's slow? Does that tell us anything meaningful?

The differential only tells us his shuttle-time relative to his 40 time. Does it tell us whether a player is quick? No. Does it tell us whether a player is slow? No.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

The differential only tells us his shuttle-time relative to his 40 time.

and why did Kirwan take that into account?

 

[theogt]

and why did Kirwan take that into account?

To determine his shuttle time relative to his 40 time. It certainly doesn't tell you whether a player is quick. Does it?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

To determine his shuttle time relative to his 40 time.

but why? what does that have anything to do w/ anything?

It certainly doesn't tell you whether a player is quick. Does it?

it sure does

 

[theogt]

but why? what does that have anything to do w/ anything?

I don't think it really tells you much at all frankly.

it sure does

Oh, it does? What about our hypothetical player, Bob, who had the 5.5 40-time and the 5.4 shuttle time? Is Bob quick, because he has a .1 differential? Or is Bob slow?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I don't think it really tells you much at all frankly.

so he used it as a GM, and is preaching it? ok

Oh, it does? What about our hypothetical player, Bob, who had the 5.5 40-time and the 5.4 shuttle time? Is Bob quick, because he has a .1 differential? Or is Bob slow?

that's a .10 differential theo, so no, I wouldn't be quick, I would be slow in a straight-line, and I would be slow agility wise

 

[theogt]

so he used it as a GM, and is preaching it? ok

He wasn't GM. The highest position he ever attained was director of player personnel. I don't know why holding that position means everything he says is worthwhile.

that's a .10 differential theo, so no, I wouldn't be quick

Let's take another hypothetical player. Let's call that player, Joe. Joe has a 40 time of 5.8. That's pretty slow right? Now Joe also has a shuttle time of 5.1. Again, that's slow, correct?

But Joe has a differential of .7. Joe magically crosses this .5 barrier. Does that make Joe quick? Is Joe fast with his 5.1 shuttle time and 5.8 40 time?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

He wasn't GM. The highest position he ever attained was director of player personnel. I don't know why holding that position means everything he says is worthwhile.

well, whatever, I don't think he would use something as a measuring stick if it was just measuring relativity and nothing else

Let's take another hypothetical player. Let's call that player, Joe. Joe has a 40 time of 5.8. That's pretty slow right? Now Joe also has a shuttle time of 5.1. Again, that's slow, correct?

But Joe has a differential of .7. Joe magically crosses this .5 barrier. Does that make Joe quick? Is Joe fast with his 5.1 shuttle time and 5.8 40 time?

Joe is quick, but not fast

 

[theogt]

well, whatever, I don't think he would use something as a measuring stick if it was just measuring relativity and nothing else



Joe is quick, but not fast

Joe is quick, with a 5.1 shuttle? Wow, I guess you'll truly saying anything just to keep from having to admit you're wrong.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

theogt

Dane Uperesa:

4.58 short-shuttle

Joe Thomas:

4.88 short-shuttle

but what do you know? Upesera's 40 was only a 5.25 compared to Thomas' 4.92, how is that possible that he's quicker?!!!

Thomas' differential is .04, while Upesera's is .67 AMAZING!! maybe Kirwan's formula is telling us something about a player's quickness afterall

 

[theogt]

Summer, is a player with a 5.8 40 time and a 5.1 shuttle time considered quick?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Summer, is a player with a 5.8 40 time and a 5.1 shuttle time considered quick?

he's considered more quick than he is fast, it doesn't mean he can outmaneuver a player who runs a 4.9 and and has a 4.8 short-shuttle though